CHA Based CC Spell Singer

[DarkchyldeLongbo]

Vanilla build, I know.

TRing my Melee Virt into a CC SS. Want to make sure I'm not screwing anything simple up.

A quick look and any pointers are appreciated.

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Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Bard) 
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 1075 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 12
Will: 12

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             14                 16                   16
Dexterity             8                 10                   10
Constitution         16                 18                   18
Intelligence         10                 12                   12
Wisdom                8                 10                   10
Charisma             18                 25                   30

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    23
Bluff                 4                    10
Concentration         7                    33
Diplomacy             8                    33
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                8                    33
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                 -1                     0
Intimidate            4                    10
Jump                  2                    15
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently        -1                     0
Open Lock            n/a                    n/a
Perform               8                    33
Repair                0                     1
Search                0                     1
Spot                 -1                     0
Swim                  2                     4
Tumble                3                    23
Use Magic Device      8                    37

Level 1 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Spell (1): Master's Touch


Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat


Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Spell (1): Otto's Resistible Dance


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): Hold Person


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (2): Heroism


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Suggestion
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (3): Haste


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Displacement


Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Slow
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Dimension Door


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery IV


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Mass Suggestion


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Greater Dispel Magic


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds
Spell (6): Otto's Irresistible Dance
Spell (6): Greater Shout


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Rage
Spell (6): Heroes Feast


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Spell (3): Crushing Despair


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Shout
Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Mind Fog
Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song III
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration III

[Jaid314]

- extend is really not a particularly great feat. move some other stuff earlier, and eventually fit quicken into your build instead.
- empower healing is not a popular choice. most prefer maximize because if you're going to be healing, you probably need power more than efficiency. personally, i think it can go either way, and my bard has empower healing for efficiency, but most of the best min/maxers i've seen prefer maximize (probably also because in the event that they do in fact want to deal damage with spells, maximize can actually help here).
- at-level, i'd pick up soundburst rather than hold person. at cap, i'd probably still go with soundburst over hold person. it's a fortitude save, it hits multiple targets. it's a bit like greater shout, except it has to breach SR unfortunately.
- at level 7, i'd probably ignore cure serious wounds: just use wands. instead, choose good hope. replace heroism with rage. good hope is still useful at later levels for times in between songs and for dispelling crushing despair, so i'd say keep it.
- slow is really unimpressive. go with crushing despair.
- at level 10, you can probably also wand cure critical wounds. still, it's not a bad option... toss-up for keeping it or leaving it for later, really. i'd consider moving another spell earlier, cure critical wounds isn't that much stronger than a wand at this point.
- at level 13, your greater heroism won't last much longer than a scroll anyways. i'd probably just scroll it. a mass cure option seems more likely to be useful imo. or mind fog for a bit of DC-boosting goodness. consider moving another spell sooner, or temporarily picking up summon monster V (earth elemental can be useful for the next few levels).
- around this time, or even earlier, i'd ditch cure light wounds for hypnotism. bonus DC is nice.
- level 19: shout is terrible. even worse for you given the complete lack of anything to boost the damage. it doesn't CC at all. i'd consider either neutralize poison or hold monster instead.

[ZeebaNeighba]

Since you're TR'ing from a bard, pick up the bard active past life. It gives +1 to enchantment dc's as well as 3 inspire courages (and IC enhancements and stuff work on that too, so it basically just saves you 3 songs) and +1 to all charisma skills. So it beats a spell focus enchantment. (If you have a wizard past life, the active past life feat for it also beats any spell focus feat.) To qualify for spellsinger early, I'll second the above suggestion to take out extend (however you cannot take past life feats at level 1, you will need to move another one of your feats there and then take the bard past life in its place) Alternatively if you take Maximize at level 3 instead of empower healing, that can also qualify you for spellsinger.

[Aashrym]

Some quick thoughts.


Bluff is pretty useful for pulling targets if you are soloing a fair bit in addition to the dialogue boxes. I see a lot of tumble and don't normally spend the skill points beyond 1 on it.

Lyric of Song III and Lyric of Incredible Song I are not really worth the points, Extra Song III is expensive for one more song. Bard Spell Penetration III is also pretty costly for +1 spell penetration. If you remove Lyric III and Incredible Lyric I, and Spell Pen III you can add Extra Song IV and MotD, maybe MotM, and some Inspired Damage. If you don't want the mezzing for undead then drop some extra song and lyric for better inspired damage.

Active PL for wizard and bard are better choices than spell focus if you don't want to try to fit in extra DC feats, and maximize is what I prefer over empower healing. Maximize provides a bigger burst; if I want more efficiency I can skip meta's completely or rely more on scrolls and wands.

Extend is decent enough at lower levels but hard to justify the cost of a feat slot later on. Quicken can be useful, or the bard past life in addition to the spell focus feats.

Spells to work towards listed below. I know many players do not like slow but I am not one of them. Slow affects creatures not affected by enchantments (it's a transmutation) and the damage mitigation from it is another stacking layer. Having said that, third level spells are a tight fit for bards.

Cure Light Wounds isn't a great spell to pick up. Cure Moderate Wounds can carry you through up to the level 10-12ish area without much difficulty. Mass cures is what you need to be more effective at healing so as soon as possible.


Spell thoughts:

Level 1

Master's Touch
Otto's Resistible Dance
Hypnotism
Grease
Merfolk's Blessing

honorable mentions: Sonic Blast, Focusing Chant, Expeditious Retreat, Remove Fear


Level 2

Rage
Blur
Glitterdust
Daze Monster
Invisibility

honorable mentions: Soundburst, Hypnotic Pattern, Cure Moderate Wounds


Level 3

Displacement
Haste
Cure Serious Wounds
Crushing Despair
Deep Slumber

honorable mentions: Good Hope, Slow, Fear


Level 4

Freedom of Movement
Dimension Door
Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Cure Critical Wounds
Hold Monster


Level 5

Mass Cure Light Wounds
Mass Suggestion
Mind Fog
Greater Heroism
<ANY> -- Greater Dispel Magic, Shadow Walk, Summon Monster V are typical choice. Greater Heroism and Shadow Walk are often just scrolls, and the same can be said for summon spells.


Level 6

Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Mass Charm Monster
Greater Shout

honorable mentions: Heroes' Feast

[voodoogroves]

A single spell focus, while not as useful as PL Bard or Wizard, opens up the ED abilities to twist ... one for any school (enchant) and one only for conjuration/evocation (soundburst, greater shout)

[Aashrym]

A single spell focus, while not as useful as PL Bard or Wizard, opens up the ED abilities to twist ... one for any school (enchant) and one only for conjuration/evocation (soundburst, greater shout)

I don't have the ability to twist everything I want, let alone hit the requirements for all of it.

Good point, though.

[DarkchyldeLongbo]

I've been out of town, so haven't had a chance to respond yet.

Thank you all for your input, I will incorporate it into my build once I get around to TRing. (Which should be after moving, oh joy.)