TWF DoS Paladin

[puhff]

I'd like to make a two-weapon fighting DPS Paladin and I'd like it to be Defender of Siberys. I am currently on my Third life almost ready to cap to throw back into the next one. I have +3 tomes as well. I do not mind multiclassing as long as its not 12/6/2 Paladin Ranger Monk. 18/2 would be alright. Though I have never really played a paladin past 12. I started one once and I loved it but I thought itd be better with +3 tomes and a 36 point build so I deleted him.

[Jorge_2070]

grr... accidently posted, while editing. Why am i unable to delete an accidental post?

[cidchronic]

Defender of siberys needs a shield, so you cant do both, at least in my experience. if I am wrong, then sorry. wish I could have helped more.

[Krelar]

Defender of siberys needs a shield, so you cant do both, at least in my experience. if I am wrong, then sorry. wish I could have helped more.

Some of the bonuses only apply when using a shield but you can still use quite a few of them without. (Especially the most useful ones, bonuses to STR, CON, and HP)

[bergeau09]

Hey Puhff!

Hossa's 2nd life was a pally/monk (18/2) Using two khopesh, it was awsome, I couldn't consider him as a main tank but if there was an emergency, I could do it. I end up with around 900 HPs at lvl 20 (W/out any EDs or epic feats) for the DPS it was alright, just cast Zeal to cover the -10% Movement and attack speed penality from DoS stance, and with haste and Legendery Dreadnought haste boost (That you can twist) the -10% is not a big deal. But the Pre feats that you need, I wouldn't take too much defensive feats but more DPS (Because if I'm right, that's what you're Looking for.)

Hope I helped!

[puhff]

Well I mainly need help on the stats. I have the feats pretty much down.

Human Lawful Good
1. Monk)TWF, OTWF, Shield Mastery.
2. Paladin
3. Monk)Khopesh, Power Attack
4. Paladin
5. Paladin
6. Paladin)ITWF
7. Paladin
8. Paladin
9. Paladin)Toughness
10. Paladin
11. Paladin
12. Paladin)GTWF
13. Paladin
14. Paladin
15. Paladin) Imp Crit Slashing
16. Paladin
17. Paladin
18. Paladin) Extend
19. Paladin
20. Paladin



thats what i have so far. i know my enhancements. If at lvl 1 i dont take OTWF i will take power attack and at lvl 3 i will switch power attack for Cleave just to add some extra dps to the build. Im not necessarily an expert on paladins but I dont think OTWF is a huge deal. But every point counts at endgame so I don't know. Epic levels ill figure them out when I get there. I might take 2 levels of fighter instead of monk for haste boost +1 str +2 confirm criticals. I lose out on handwraps AC and Evasion but 2 levels of fighter would be more DPS due to haste boost stacking with haste. Paladin Capstone is nice but I cant take khopeshs if I go pure unless I take off Extend. But on a paladin Extend is quite handy for Zeal and the lvl 1 Spell that I cant think of right now.

[squishwizzy]

Paladin Capstone is nice but I cant take khopeshs if I go pure unless I take off Extend. But on a paladin Extend is quite handy for Zeal and the lvl 1 Spell that I cant think of right now.

While extend is nice to have in some situations, your bread-and-butter Paladin abilities tend to consume Turn Undead, Remove Disease, Smite, or Lay on Hands slots. Yeah, casting in the middle of a fight is a PITA, but I'm not wholly sure that extend for some of the spells with shorter durations is going to provide that major of a benefit.

I'd be interested in seeing other peoples comments on taking Extend.

Really, the only reason to not stay pure, from what I've seen, is to pick up evasion - which is something that would be very desirable for a TWF build.

[Such755]

Well I mainly need help on the stats. I have the feats pretty much down.

Human Lawful Good
1. Monk)TWF, OTWF, Shield Mastery.
2. Paladin
3. Monk)Khopesh, Power Attack
4. Paladin
5. Paladin
6. Paladin)ITWF
7. Paladin
8. Paladin
9. Paladin)Toughness
10. Paladin
11. Paladin
12. Paladin)GTWF
13. Paladin
14. Paladin
15. Paladin) Imp Crit Slashing
16. Paladin
17. Paladin
18. Paladin) Extend
19. Paladin
20. Paladin



thats what i have so far. i know my enhancements. If at lvl 1 i dont take OTWF i will take power attack and at lvl 3 i will switch power attack for Cleave just to add some extra dps to the build. Im not necessarily an expert on paladins but I dont think OTWF is a huge deal. But every point counts at endgame so I don't know. Epic levels ill figure them out when I get there. I might take 2 levels of fighter instead of monk for haste boost +1 str +2 confirm criticals. I lose out on handwraps AC and Evasion but 2 levels of fighter would be more DPS due to haste boost stacking with haste. Paladin Capstone is nice but I cant take khopeshs if I go pure unless I take off Extend. But on a paladin Extend is quite handy for Zeal and the lvl 1 Spell that I cant think of right now.

Extend is not useful that much, it wouldn't hurt to cast the spell again.
OTWF is useless, your to-hit will be fine.

If you drop those two you get to pick up Cleave, great cleave and overwhelming crits.

If you roll 19-20 on your smite evil you'll see some sick numbers going.

[squishwizzy]

I'd like to make a two-weapon fighting DPS Paladin and I'd like it to be Defender of Siberys. I am currently on my Third life almost ready to cap to throw back into the next one. I have +3 tomes as well. I do not mind multiclassing as long as its not 12/6/2 Paladin Ranger Monk. 18/2 would be alright. Though I have never really played a paladin past 12. I started one once and I loved it but I thought itd be better with +3 tomes and a 36 point build so I deleted him.

I think TWF with DoS is almost like a conflict of interest. One is pure offense, the other is pure defense. Plus, in order to go DoS you essentially burn one feat: Shield Mastery. Why throw away one feat?

Plus, with your defensive stances, you move 10% slower. My thought is that this doesn't play well with a melee who might have to be pretty mobile and agile to be effective.

I dunno. I think going HotD or KotC is probably a smarter pick than DoS.

[puhff]

I think TWF with DoS is almost like a conflict of interest. One is pure offense, the other is pure defense. Plus, in order to go DoS you essentially burn one feat: Shield Mastery. Why throw away one feat?

Plus, with your defensive stances, you move 10% slower. My thought is that this doesn't play well with a melee who might have to be pretty mobile and agile to be effective.

I dunno. I think going HotD or KotC is probably a smarter pick than DoS.

I have seen a TWF Paladin Solo The Ring of Fire (Eveningstar Challenge) on CR Level 25 as a DoS TWF. So you are wrong right there.

[Dolphious]

Plus, in order to go DoS you essentially burn one feat: Shield Mastery. Why throw away one feat?
.

Why are people saying this?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Defender_of_...s_enhancements

"Requires One of the Following: Combat Expertise,Diehard, Shield Mastery, Tower Shield Proficiency"

You could take expertise (quite nice for twisting Imp. Combat expertise for 20 PRR) instead, or splash fighter and get tower shield prof for free, no need to blow a feat on SM.

I think TWF with DoS is almost like a conflict of interest. One is pure offense, the other is pure defense.

IMO building good melee for EE is all about balancing offense and defense now, not min/maxing. Just look at all the threads of barbarians QQing that they die too fast.

[boredman]

Your features and race seems right, just i suggest dropping OTWF for cleave and also take great cleave and get Overwhelming critical at epic levels (make sure to reach 23 base str at least for that feature, tomes included), (with momentum swing and cleaves your aoe damage will be very useful at epic levels and also to keep the aggro when tanking) you also can use shields when willing to do some hard tanking, getting the aggro with intimidate, cleaves and divine righteousness, so shield mastery is a wise option in my opinion for defender of siberys prestige prereq.

Between fighter or monk splash, I personally prefer monk for evasion (you also can use the monk features on PA or Twf and/or toughness to keep the same features as the fighter splash), although the haste boost 1 is nice for leveling, you can twist haste boost IV with epic destinies without having to splash with fighter, also, since you are twf style, handwraps will be the best dps weapons against fortified enemies as elementals, skeletons, constructs, etc.
Also you can use light armors or robes when using evasion but still can also switch to full plate (even with the monk splash) when wanting more Prr and ac.

But fighter splash is also good (get tower shield too and +1 str ) so is more of your personal desire what to pick.

As for extend feature, it can be nice if you dont want to cast zeal and divine favor so often (can save you a little time of casting inside long fights for dps) but also there are some other optional defensive features as quicken (no interrump of your spells while being hit), maximice or empower healing (more power of your heals), bulkwark of defense (epic feature +2 saves and +4 ac), or mental toughness (more spell points), so you can try them and keep the feature that fits you better.

As for stats it would depend on what tomes you have, I suggest to at least get a +3 dex and +3 cha tomes so you can make the base stats like this:

Str 17 +6 raise ability + tome
Dex 14 +3 tome
Con 14 + tome
Int 10 + tome
Wis 9 + tome
Cha 15 + 3 tome

If you want a liitle more stats efficiency for more Int and/or Wis can drop Str to 16 too, or if you want to maximice Str can raise it to 18, leaving Int on 9, Wis on 8 and Con on 13, but i personally prefer more efficiency on stat distribution with a not maxed str.

[puhff]

Your features and race seems right, just i suggest dropping OTWF for cleave and also take great cleave and get Overwhelming critical at epic levels (make sure to reach 23 base str at least for that feature, tomes included), (with momentum swing and cleaves your aoe damage will be very useful at epic levels and also to keep the aggro when tanking) you also can use shields when willing to do some hard tanking, getting the aggro with intimidate, cleaves and divine righteousness, so shield mastery is a wise option in my opinion for defender of siberys prestige prereq.

Between fighter or monk splash, I personally prefer monk for evasion (you also can use the monk features on PA or Twf and/or toughness to keep the same features as the fighter splash), although the haste boost 1 is nice for leveling, you can twist haste boost IV with epic destinies without having to splash with fighter, also, since you are twf style, handwraps will be the best dps weapons against fortified enemies as elementals, skeletons, constructs, etc.
Also you can use light armors or robes when using evasion but still can also switch to full plate (even with the monk splash) when wanting more Prr and ac.

But fighter splash is also good (get tower shield too and +1 str ) so is more of your personal desire what to pick.

As for extend feature, it can be nice if you dont want to cast zeal and divine favor so often (can save you a little time of casting inside long fights for dps) but also there are some other optional defensive features as quicken (no interrump of your spells while being hit), maximice or empower healing (more power of your heals), bulkwark of defense (epic feature +2 saves and +4 ac), or mental toughness (more spell points), so you can try them and keep the feature that fits you better.

As for stats it would depend on what tomes you have, I suggest to at least get a +3 dex and +3 cha tomes so you can make the base stats like this:

Str 17 +6 raise ability + tome
Dex 14 +3 tome
Con 14 + tome
Int 10 + tome
Wis 9 + tome
Cha 15 + 3 tome

If you want a liitle more stats efficiency for more Int and/or Wis can drop Str to 16 too, or if you want to maximice Str can raise it to 18, leaving Int on 9, Wis on 8 and Con on 13, but i personally prefer more efficiency on stat distribution with a not maxed str.

I will think about the stats thank you. as for a base 23 str if I go with your stats 17+3tome+5lvlup=25. (+1human adapt) but that doesnt count toward feats. On another note if I have a dex of 14 then yes my +3 tome will take it up to 17 but I will have to hold off on taking ITWF and GTWF till 12 and 15 because ITWF and GTWF need dex of 17< Which wouldn't be an issue but I don't know if I want sword and board it to 15.

[Wipey]

On human splash, blue bar healing is certainly a strong option dropping OTWF and extend for maximize and quicken, especially if you have Torc and Con opp greensteel.


Or drop extend and OTWF for both cleaves and take overwhelm crit and something like stunning blow, I mean twf DoS, you are pretty much locked into Dreadnought anyway, so might as well use lay waste chain and tactics bonus.

[puhff]

On human splash, blue bar healing is certainly a strong option dropping OTWF and extend for maximize and quicken, especially if you have Torc and Con opp greensteel.


Or drop extend and OTWF for both cleaves and take overwhelm crit and something like stunning blow, I mean twf DoS, you are pretty much locked into Dreadnought anyway, so might as well use lay waste chain and tactics bonus.

I don't have a Torc or a Con Opp or else i wouldnt have put extend in the feats section.

[boredman]

sure, if you want to get ITWF before can start with 15 dex base, dropping int to 9 and wis to 8, or can start with 16 str to leave wis and int a bit higher. Its really not a big deal and anyway you can use your free LR at higher levels if want more Str or Int for skills.

[Kinerd]

Keep in mind that the various Cleaves turn off your offhand and will therefore reduce your single-target DPS as a TWFer. I think I would shuffle your feats as follows:

1 - TWF, PA, Shield Mastery
3 - Khopesh, Improved Sunder
6 - Toughness (I don't think you qualify for ITWF as a 4/2 palmonk, I could be wrong though)
9 - ITWF
12 - GTWF
15 - IC Slash
18 - Cleave
21 - Great Cleave
24 - Overwhelming Critical

The thing with OTWF is that because the formula is to-hit divided by AC, it counts less and less as AC increases (which is to say endgame).

The self-healing option is very strong and I personally prefer it (with or without SP regen), but if you have made your mind up to pursue DPS then go for it.

[Wipey]

~
3 - Khopesh, Improved Sunder
~

If you have room for one tactic feat, why do you value imp sunder over stunning blow Kinerd ?
I already said I would go for self hjealing ( imho that's the frikkin point of rolling ranger/pally ), but if they choose moar dps, just curious about sunder choice.

[Kinerd]

If you have room for one tactic feat, why do you value imp sunder over stunning blow Kinerd ?
I already said I would go for self hjealing ( imho that's the frikkin point of rolling ranger/pally ), but if they choose moar dps, just curious about sunder choice.

Improved Sunder can be helpful against trash and bosses, every other tactical feat only against trash. IS has a self-perpetuating mechanic by targeting and reducing Fort saves, none of the others do. A paladin is a bit behind in raw tactics scores (no enhancements, somewhat lower Strength), making the raw tactics less appealing. That's my reasoning anyway.

"Requires One of the Following: Combat Expertise,Diehard, Shield Mastery, Tower Shield Proficiency"

You could take expertise (quite nice for twisting Imp. Combat expertise for 20 PRR) instead, or splash fighter and get tower shield prof for free, no need to blow a feat on SM.

Making the Int requirement for CE is no joke, especially on a TWF paladin of all builds. Fighter splash also has costs in no capstone.

[Varashad]

Human Paladin(18)/Rogue(2)

Stats
Str: 16
Dex: 14(if only +2 tome start at 15.)
Con: 16(15 if only +2 dex tome)
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 16(+2 cha tome or better required.)

Skills: Paladin levels: UMD. Rogue levels: UMD, Balance + your taste

Feats:
Level 1: Power Attack, Toughness
Level 3: Khopesh
Level 6: Tower Shield/Shield Mastery(Both are unimportant as you will rarely use your shield)
Level 9: Improved Critical: Slashing
Level 12: Two Weapon Fighting
Level 15: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Level 18: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Level 21: Improved Sunder
Level 24: Extend/Maximize Spell(can be whatever you want really.)

This feat selection sucks because you just need so much, and all of it has requirements. Ideally I would advise you to do a rogue(2)/fighter(4)/paladin(12) build until level 16, at which point you would use hearts of wood to swap out the fighter levels, and take your feats then. However, if not available, swinging a two hander till 12 is fine.

Alternatively, if you don't care about UMD, you could do a monk splash instead.

Human Paladin(18)/Monk(2)


Stats
Str: 16
Dex: 14(if only +2 tome start at 15 and drop con down to 15.)
Con: 16(15 if only +2 dex tome)
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 16(+2 cha tome or better required. If +3 cha tome raise int or wis to 10, or dex to 15 and drop cha to 15.)

Skills: Paladin: Concentration. Monk: Concentration + your taste.

Feats:
Monk 1: Power Attack, Cleave, Toughness
Level 3: Khopesh
Level 6: Shield Mastery/Tower Shield(Both are unimportant as you will rarely use your shield)
Level 9 Monk 2: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical: Slashing
Level 12: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Level 15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Level 18: Great Cleave
Level 21: Overwhelming Critical
Level 24: Improved Sunder

This one offers more dps and survivability, but less self healing. I'm partial to the rogue splash myself.