Fix Invisibility and Stealth

[danzig138]

This is the basic invisibility spell:

Invisibility
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Trickery 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or Yes (harmless, object)

The creature or object touched becomes invisible, vanishing from sight, even from darkvision. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.

Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.

This is invisibility as it works in DDO:

Description:

An ally becomes invisible, vanishing from sight, even from darkvision. If he or she attacks a target or interacts with certain objects, the effect is removed.

Invisibility essentially works as +20 buff to target's Hide skill. Target is considered to sneaking even when running at full speed. Enemies may still hear an invisible target if their Move Silently skill is lower then the enemies Listen skill. If enemies hear you while you're invisible, they will still pursue you, and attempt to attack where they believe you may be, based on their Listen skill.

What removes invisibility:

Attacking and hitting a target - If you hit thin air or miss, it won't break.
Casting any offensive spell - Anything that deals damage or would cause any aggro.
Interacting with most objects - opening a door, pulling a lever, activating a rune - anything that brings up a progress bar generally.

What does not remove invisibility:

Casting buffs or healing spells (except as an attack upon undead).
Playing bardic music.
Picking up objects such as crest.
Talking to NPCs.

This is the Listen skill:

Check

Your Listen check is either made against a DC that reflects how quiet the noise is that you might hear, or it is opposed by your target’s Move Silently check.

In the case of people trying to be quiet, the DCs given on the table could be replaced by Move Silently checks, in which case the indicated DC would be their average check result.

See also: epic usages of Listen.
Action

Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action.
Try Again

Yes. You can try to hear something that you failed to hear previously with no penalty.

Listen DC
Modifier Condition
+5 Through a door
+15 Through a stone wall
+1 Per 10 feet of distance
+5 Listener distracted

This is the invisible condition:

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (Invisibility has no effect against blinded or otherwise nonsighted creatures.) An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature's location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat.

Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.

If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible.

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.

A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)

A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.

An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.

Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help.

Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.

Invisibility does not thwart detect spells.

Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.

As it stands, most of the benefits that are supposed to be provided by invisibility are not provided. Creatures are able to detect and locate with pinpoint accuracy. They are able to detect and pinpoint the presence of an invisible creature from distances far beyond what their skill should allow.

Please either fix Invisibility so that it works correctly. If you aren't going to do that, but instead continue to treat it essentially as a boost to Hide, then reduce the spell level to a 1st level spell as befitting its effects.

[Gkar]

As it stands, most of the benefits that are supposed to be provided by invisibility are not provided. Creatures are able to detect and locate with pinpoint accuracy. They are able to detect and pinpoint the presence of an invisible creature from distances far beyond what their skill should allow.

Please either fix Invisibility so that it works correctly. If you aren't going to do that, but instead continue to treat it essentially as a boost to Hide, then reduce the spell level to a 1st level spell as befitting its effects.

The DDO version works as per the DDO description of the spell. In many ways, it is overpowered right now. The only enemies that can pinpoint you with percision are those with tremosense or some form of see invisibility, both of which would be effective countermeasures in PnP as well.

Basically, the spell is fine as is. I'd make make my PnP players check their move silently to see if they were heard too. Heck, even the Harry Potter children's books know that you have to be quiet when invis if you want to keep from being noticed.

[Syllph]

I agree with the OP to a degree. I've never had luck with hiding/moving silently even when maxed out and invis. There's about three quests where it's useful. It works sometimes with mobs not aggroing but normally they just stop for a sec, pop on their thermal-optics that all mobs happen to have, and walk right at me - even if they are a level 1 with low, low spot.

That being said, invi should not turn off when I do non-combat related things: opening doors, casting healing spring, opening a chest, summoning a monster, etc.

[Flavilandile]

If you are invisible and running around you will eventually get detected.

if you are sneaking around with a high enough stealth skill you will not be seen even if you are just in front of the mob. ( I tested that so many time with my rogues that it's not even fun anymore )

if you are sneaking invisible you will not be detected unless the mob has True Sight and/or Tremorsense.

Invisibility is not a run free through quest to completion spell. The spell is working fine as it is.

[bigolbear]

Dear op:

I agree with the basic premise that invis is not quite working as it should, and neither is stealth. I am an avid fan of stealth in DDO but sometimes its just frustrating.

The issues as I see them:

1. invis/stealth breaking when it shouldnt.

1.1interacting with objects/doors/levers. should not break the invis spell OR stealth.
-Instead it should generate a 'noise check/ spot check' set at a STANDARD DC for the noise the object would make. Enemies could then move to the objects location and search for the player, It should also contribute to dungeon alert, and dungeon alert should grant bonuses to enemy spot. of course DA goes away if you remian hidden for a time.

1.2 stealth braking on attack.
-Curently its only the assassinate abilty that doesnt break stealth. This means that ONLY assassins are alowed to play in this manner. I would like to open this style up to 'ninja spies', 'deepwood snipers' and ANY character with sufficient stealth skills. Attacks should not break stealth automaticaly, rather they should generate noise.

instead what should happen is every attack made while stealthed causes a noise and thus a chance of being discovered. Every 3 seconds of fighting should cause a cumulative penalty, and the target of the attack should of course become aware of the fact they have been hurt(after 3 seconds they become aware and begin hunting for the hidden foe and swinging their weapon in likely areas).

ninja spy to get a benefit to Touch of death - doesnt make a noise, if delivered from stealth it has a fort save or die effect added(dc 10+ half monk lvl + wisdom mod)

deep wood sniper to get a benefit to sniper shot - doesnt make a noise, if delivered from stealth it has a fort save or die effect added (dc 10+ half ranger lvl + dex mod)

spell casting to not break stealth automaticaly either, instead:
somatic spells generate 'spot checks' by enemies with a large penalty to hide.
verbal spells generate 'listen checks' by enemies with a large penalty to move silent.
Metamagic silent and still spell to be added to the game to negate these penalties.

Any witnesses to stealth cast spells or stealth attacks should go into hunt mode - not sit idly by wondering why 'bob the hob goblin had a suden heart attack'




2. enemies hunt mechanics.
2.1 dogs, wargs, wolves and other 4 legged demons!
These creatures have scent, they should be able to smell danger.
IDEALY a wind direction indicator would be great.. but thats OTT, so instead these enemies should auto agro any stealthed player that gets too close - watch dogs should be a no go zone for stealthers. Certain druid/ranger abilites should negate this - eg pass with out trace. To encourage the fun factor id have the agro range be quite small, say 10 foot - I know its unrealistic but it would make for a more fun environment.

2.2 archers/ mobs with throwing weapons.
please for the love of all that is stealthy stop the archers and thowers from pin point shotting stealthed guys. this is by far the biggest issue with stealthing play style.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think that most DDOers do not understand how Invisibility works in DDO. (truthfully, I do not fully understand it either, but I know enough to use it... and stealth in general.)

It is my belief that Invisibility has changed somewhat in DDO over the years.

Currently, I do not believe that it adds +20 to Hide. Or if it does, that is meaningless.
Because I believe it currently prevents monsters from seeing you regardless of your hide skill....

....sorta.

Spot is a tricky thing in DDO,... there seems to be a periodic buff to Spotting you based on how long you stand in their viewing arc.

and a buff based on lighting.

But these mostly seem to only effect Hide and not Invisibility as far as I can tell.

I do remember being seen trying to climb up the raft side ladder to a ship in (god I hate my memory when I am trying to post on the forums. ) that Lordsmarch/Harbor quest where you blow up the ships...

I could have sworn I was Invisible. But I do know that there is a ton of light on those ladders.


Sorry to be so confusing.

But my point is that in most situations, being Invisible simply means that they will not see you.


at first.
(lol,... now it gets real confusing)


Monsters do have an auto-detect zone about three feat in front of them. They will see you if you get that close.

However... after they see you their reaction may vary quick a bit.

They might act normal. Act exactly as if they can see you normally from then on out.

But more often they start their attack-the-air-sonar thing, where they make an attack and then they know your current exact location,.... but if you move they do not kno wwhere yo moved to, and have to attack the air again to get a new fix on your new current location.

Problem is, that archers tend to just shoot right at you.... so it makes no difference.
and casters quiet often can cast on you even though they will lose track of you when you move again.


So the trick is... not to let them detect you to begin with.

If you stay away from them, they will not see you though.
But once they see you once, they usually keep pursuing you, and most players assume this means that they actually see them.

This whole thing is compounded because mosters also "hear" and Invis does not prevent you from making noise.

In fact, if you take a single step unstealthed, nearby monsters will hear you and move straight toward you..... and usually get to the three feat autodetect zone and then they "see" you and start their attacks.


To make matters worse, monsters also "talk" to each other.

If you hurt one of them, they tell nearby monsters exactly where you are.
I believe they also tell your location if they are "Feared" as well.

In some cases they tell nearby monsters only that they are attacking "something" but not where it is.
The nearby monsters wil move toward the attacking monster, but at a slow pace.
If you are far away, that attacker will outrun those near him, and his friends will lose interest. But if you are close, they may bump into(see) you as well.



Anyway.... all of that said.
While I do not agree with how Turbine decided to do stealth... and designs many dungeons to prevent a total stealth completion....

Stealth and Invisibility are still very useful in DDO.
The more you know about them and how monsters repond and agro on people, the more useful they both become.

[danotmano1998]

2.2 archers/ mobs with throwing weapons.
please for the love of all that is stealthy stop the archers and thowers from pin point shotting stealthed guys. this is by far the biggest issue with stealthing play style.

/Signed on this!!!

DDO Archers are the only known creature to be able to accurately pinpoint your exact location while you are invisible, 2 rooms away, AND under 20 feet of water. They're amazing!

[MrCow]

As it stands, most of the benefits that are supposed to be provided by invisibility are not provided.

Which is fine, because invisibility has one aspect in DDO that helps it overpower any of the implementation rules you cite.

• When invisible, a monster does not get to use a spot check vs. your hide skill if it can not see invisibility, unless the invisible character has a hide skill lower than 0 due to an explicit penalty to their hide score (such as "Glitterdust" or "Eww that's gross"). This does not pertain to the ability to see a player because they've lingered in the monster's visual arc for too long, or getting with a monster's auto-detection visual arc.