EE Tanks. I need advice

[Dolphious]

I agree ... or just ignore CE: Combat Expertise means you cannot use Power Attack and this means that you will not be able to use momentum swing and, possibly, laywaste... two abilities that improve your DPS drammatically. Without a consistent DPS you might loose aggro against the most fierce DPSesses unless you work with that US ability which sky-raise it for few seconds.

I also think that nothing currently ingame requires CE on to be tanked. High AC, PRR and a little of Dodge is all you need and you don't need CE to get it: i only use CE when i get overwhelmed or i need that little added surviving edge for critical situations, for most of the time i run with PA.

My understanding is it would be better to drop overwhelming crit than G2HF. OC is is 10% more DPS, and if Sirgog is right here: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=10 G2HF is a 17.5% increase in DPS. It might even be more if you're spaming cleave/GC as those proc a glancing blow each time.

[edit] personally I would drop CE, OC, and IC in exchange for the full 2HF, both shield masteries, and quicken. Now that I have quicken on my pally I don't know how I ever lived without it.

[FengXian]

I agree ... or just ignore CE: Combat Expertise means you cannot use Power Attack and this means that you will not be able to use momentum swing and, possibly, laywaste... two abilities that improve your DPS drammatically. Without a consistent DPS you might loose aggro against the most fierce DPSesses unless you work with that US ability which sky-raise it for few seconds.

I also think that nothing currently ingame requires CE on to be tanked. High AC, PRR and a little of Dodge is all you need and you don't need CE to get it: i only use CE when i get overwhelmed or i need that little added surviving edge for critical situations, for most of the time i run with PA.

I did the same, I dropped CE because it's just not worth it, I spend all the time in PA anyway. Took quick draw over it, although it doesn't seem to be working 100% as it used to (but still reduces the time needed to restart attacking after boosts, cleaves etc so good enough for me...). However I'm a fighter so I can afford more feats like mobility, active fighter PL, even bulwark of defense, so I can get some extra AC that way. Not sure about pallies, they do have aura after all...

[Kinerd]

I have not gone astray at all I gave the +1 multiplier throughout all crits. It means you get 10% of your attacks doing 3x and 10% doing 4x. Remember this is an OC bastard sword build.

My mistake.

I am unable in any way to come up with a 25 dmg per swing benefit to gthf so i'm gonna go over it all again. Turns out you have some multiplication errors in your original numbers.

Let's consider your original math argument again.

Instead of caluclating out a 20 swing average which is just prone to errors like your multiplications and gives a bloated number for an average dmg per swing calculation let's take a look at a single per swing dmg average for a bastard sword with Overwhelming Critical. This all assumes hit on 2 or above while not idealistic it is simplistic and attack bonus should not change with either choice significanltly.

Gthf Base attack seeker 10 assumed.

.75(x)+.1(2(x+10))+.1(3(x+10))

or simply 1.25*x+5.0 where x is base dmg.

Glancing blows then calculate out to.

.95*.75(.5(x))

or simply .35625*x

So a gthf attack would do on average 1.60625*x+5.0

Now for a 5% double strike calculation:

Base attack

1.05(.75(x)+.1(2(x+10))+.1(3(x+10)))

or simply 1.3125*x+5.25

Glancing blows on a imp thf setup would be

.95*.5(.4(x)) or simply .19*x

bringing out total to 1.5025*x+5.25

For a difference of

.10375*x-.25 per swing.

If we let x = 50 for a moderate amount (10 for 2[1d10], 6 enhancement, 5 power attack, 20 str mod, 9 additional weapon dmg bonuses) we get a difference of 4.93750 per swing.

I've already shown how divine sacrifice can drop this to ~3.75 dmg per swing. Other attacks like lay waste/momentum swing that carry with them expanded crit range/multipliers will lower this also along with attacks like volcano's edge/confront any foe that grant additional non base dmg effects..

Then theres the whole concept that noone uses a plain bastard sword and we have additional magical effects to consider.

Magical effects break down as follows. For non crit based effects the doublestrike setup breaks out at 1.05y for regular attacks + another .06(.5y)=.03y for a total of 1.08y
The gthf setup gets 1y for regular attacks and .09(.75y)=.0675y for a difference of .0125y.
For crit based magical effects imp shield mastery case gains .05(.2)z=.01z. y=attack based magical weapon effects, z=crit based magical weapon effects. Vorpal only affects also give a .0025v benefit to the double strike.

This isn't gonna amount to a ton but it does add up when you factor in weapon flags, sneak attack dmg, things like sense weakness etc. and depending on your setup can create a virtual push.

I won't even go into the benefit Nightmare gets with double strike which happens to be the preferred and most often used weapon for a build of this type.

Then theres the whole movement thing that throws it all out of whack in favor of the imp shield mastery plus you also get a fair amount of prr.

It turns out that instead of 19 * .5 * .1 + 19 * .25 * .5, I did 19 * 5 * .1 + 19 * .25 * .5. This did significantly overstate the benefit of GTHF. Correcting the decimal point gives 3.325, which over 20 is .16625, -1.25/20 giving .10375. (Aside: I'm not sure why you like per 1 swings vs. per 20 swings. As demonstrated we end up in the same place.) We can do the same with magical effects and get .2375 / 20 = .011875. (Second aside: this number is smaller because you didn't account for automatic miss on 1 in that part of your analysis. Should be 1.026 for ISM and 1.014125 for GTHF. It's also .2375 instead of the .2425 over 20 swings I previously said because I messed up that arithmetic.)

So now we're agreed: +.10375 per base per swing, -.011875 per magical effect per swing. We agree that 50 is a good number for base, and you mention Nightmare so let's use Nightmare's magical effects: Entropic 7 for sure, and we'll assume the best case where the target fails its Nightmares save on everything but a 20: 19/20 * 5 * 4.5, total of 28.375.

+.10375 * 50 - .011875 * 28.375 = +4.850546875 per swing for the GTHF

Taking your earlier calculated value of -1.16 due to DS, the GTHF is still ahead.

Life Stealing is an interesting factor, but I do not feel a significant one and here is why: Life Stealing does 1d3 on crit, and at 100 animations per minute we're talking (100/60) animations per second * .05 additional attacks per animation * 4/20 crits per attack * 2 negative levels per crit = .033 additional negative levels per second, or 1 additional negative level per 30 seconds. Personally I haven't found negative levels to be that effective anyway against epic level regeneration, and I don't see how the marginal increase would be at all significant.

I like sneak attack very much and it very strongly disfavors GTHF, but I don't see the point in including it on a tank build which by definition wants to have aggro.

As for exalted smite you should have at least rank 2 as you spend everything to get divine sacrifice 2 also which is a big dps boost. Pally ap are tight but I find it hard to believe you can better spend those 2 ap. And timing them to attack chains it's quite easy really, much easier then old thf twitch attacking and I see no real reason why you would find it that hard to believe.

I disagree that DS 2 is a big boost over DS 1, so I would be spending 5 AP.

I'm willing to agree for sake of argument that people time smites to specific animations. If you can explain why they would choose an imperceptible speed boost over using them on a glancing blow animation, I'm even willing to agree that smites favor the ISM build. Let's calculate an effective cooldown for smites: 1 a minute? 1 every 30 seconds? That's 10 times the cooldown of DS, which we have already shown is not enough to tip the scales.

.

With all that said, I'm glad you were willing to go through the math. Between the two of us I think we have it correct now, and I'm sure that's all either of us wanted out of this exercise.

[Meat-Head]

Derailing my own thread here.. But making these hard choices really makes one reconsider a Stalwart instead.. Helf 20 stalwart cleric dilly? Not as awesome at self-healing, but it's something...


Someone tell me why Pallys are awesomer and stop my insanity plox

[LeLoric]

Life Stealing is an interesting factor, but I do not feel a significant one and here is why: Life Stealing does 1d3 on crit, and at 100 animations per minute we're talking (100/60) animations per second * .05 additional attacks per animation * 4/20 crits per attack * 2 negative levels per crit = .033 additional negative levels per second, or 1 additional negative level per 30 seconds. Personally I haven't found negative levels to be that effective anyway against epic level regeneration, and I don't see how the marginal increase would be at all significant.

I like sneak attack very much and it very strongly disfavors GTHF, but I don't see the point in including it on a tank build which by definition wants to have aggro.I disagree that DS 2 is a big boost over DS 1, so I would be spending 5 AP.

I'm willing to agree for sake of argument that people time smites to specific animations. If you can explain why they would choose an imperceptible speed boost over using them on a glancing blow animation, I'm even willing to agree that smites favor the ISM build. Let's calculate an effective cooldown for smites: 1 a minute? 1 every 30 seconds? That's 10 times the cooldown of DS, which we have already shown is not enough to tip the scales.

With all that said, I'm glad you were willing to go through the math. Between the two of us I think we have it correct now, and I'm sure that's all either of us wanted out of this exercise.

I think you understate life stealing by quite a wide margin. First remember that you are basing that off just regular crit range when this build could often be benefitting from attacks with increased crit range. Smites/momentum swings etc all can boost this plus as a cleave/great cleave chaining build you are more likely to hit mobs with no dmg resulting in a single ccrit taking a large mount of hit points. Also depends on if any others are using nightmares. Often in EE content I have seen up to 7 in one group. That means that more often life stealing is dealing actual dmg because of the much more rapid rate of negative levels. Then of course theres the fact that you do get kills off the pk effect even on the hardest levels although all this damage is often hard to quantify which is why I mentioned not wanting to count in the benefit.

Sneak attack I have to disagree also. As a tank with aggro you still often get your sneak dmg as improved deception is such a common effect now. I know on my rog I've generally got imp deception/bluff debuff up virtually full time on most mobs not to mention radiance etc.

Read again my original statement on smites where I did say that it's possible to be better if the increase is enough which is possible if the increase is enough and using a smite on the 3rd attack hook with a bastard sword is a noticeable increase. However I did not claim that it was better as I don't have the actual swing rates. Therefore I claimed that an ITHF user would just smite on the two swings he got glancings on and the net difference for exalted smite II or III is virtually a push.

Your smite cooldown is only effective as a limit for when you are strictly going off someone who has already used their smites. It is not representative of an actual fight where there is often a couple of smites stored up from the start of the quest or shrining or possible regens from buffing for fights moving between fights etc. If we are talking extended long combats with no breaks sure ill go with your numbers but they are only limits as to what the longest possible cooldown could be but rarely a reality.

Once again though unless we get numbers as to the actual swing rates if using a smite for third attack chain versus others then once again we are talking a virtual push for exalted smite II or III if you don't take exalted smite II or III you are doing less dps than someone who would (theres not enough pally related dps enhancements that would preclude at least exalted smite II from being the better dps option especially if coupled with DS II).

You still fail to take into the account the biggest benefit to 5% double strike over gthf which is the no glancing blows while moving. Even if you get 95% of your glancing blows the doublestrike moves ahead.

And gthf offers no defensive benefit.

[LeLoric]

Derailing my own thread here.. But making these hard choices really makes one reconsider a Stalwart instead.. Helf 20 stalwart cleric dilly? Not as awesome at self-healing, but it's something...


Someone tell me why Pallys are awesomer and stop my insanity plox

Strong saves, better healing, some spells/buffs, and much better synergy with US for tanking.

That said stalwarts also have many benefits too I just don't think it's a hard yes or no as to one being better than the other.

[maddmatt70]

I think pallys which are tanks are more pure tanks then fighters which is fine. I also think you should play to their strengths. 2 monk is much better then 2 fighter for a pally - evasion man. My 18 pally 2 monk S&B has all saves at about 60 or higher and has regenerating 6 lay on hands that is some sick stuff. A fighter doesnt have that. Fighter got some other cool stuff, but a defensive pally should go for evasion and be slightly more one dimensional in my opinion - the one dimension being defense.

[FengXian]

Derailing my own thread here.. But making these hard choices really makes one reconsider a Stalwart instead.. Helf 20 stalwart cleric dilly? Not as awesome at self-healing, but it's something...


Someone tell me why Pallys are awesomer and stop my insanity plox

I am running a 18 fighter 2 monk with cleric dilly atm. It's pretty good, but eventually I'd rather go either monk dilly for more HA or sorc for tenser and teleport scrolls, although with some work UMD can reach decent levels (healing with SF pots and Lay on Hands from US destiny for emergencies).

It's true that it will never have the saves of a paladin but it still has a respectable 40+ to 50+ reflex depending on twist/equip (slightly higher fort, slightly lower will). Also using the relic B-sword which is a very nice and quite underrated weapon imho. Healing for 2-6 hp per hit, lots of negative level procs and some PK too. Nice when you need to stay in S&B mode vs trash.

BTW, I haven't checked but I think you can get stalwart II and DoS I on the same toon now? Ofc stances won't stack but it -could- be an idea for some multiclassing (12/6/2 fighter/pally/monk or pally/fighter/monk...). Again, haven't checked if it makes sense, just tossing an idea if someone's interested...

[Dolphious]

I think pallys which are tanks are more pure tanks then fighters which is fine. I also think you should play to their strengths. 2 monk is much better then 2 fighter for a pally - evasion man. My 18 pally 2 monk S&B has all saves at about 60 or higher and has regenerating 6 lay on hands that is some sick stuff. A fighter doesnt have that. Fighter got some other cool stuff, but a defensive pally should go for evasion and be slightly more one dimensional in my opinion - the one dimension being defense.

I used to feel that way, but with PA/cleave/great cleave/momentum swing you can pick up so much DPS at so little cost to defense I think a DPS/tank hybrid is a pretty reasonable choice even for a pally. And it's not like there's many situations that call for all out defense.

[maddmatt70]

I used to feel that way, but with PA/cleave/great cleave/momentum swing you can pick up so much DPS at so little cost to defense I think a DPS/tank hybrid is a pretty reasonable choice even for a pally. And it's not like there's many situations that call for all out defense.

Bah fighters just do dps sword and boarding far better. Now your right when you say tanking is not really that needed in game at the moment, but you build pally for the saves, and self healing whereas fighters got more of the dps.

[Inouk]

I think you understate life stealing by quite a wide margin. First remember that you are basing that off just regular crit range when this build could often be benefitting from attacks with increased crit range. Smites/momentum swings etc all can boost this plus as a cleave/great cleave chaining build you are more likely to hit mobs with no dmg resulting in a single ccrit taking a large mount of hit points. Also depends on if any others are using nightmares. Often in EE content I have seen up to 7 in one group. That means that more often life stealing is dealing actual dmg because of the much more rapid rate of negative levels. Then of course theres the fact that you do get kills off the pk effect even on the hardest levels although all this damage is often hard to quantify which is why I mentioned not wanting to count in the benefit.

Sneak attack I have to disagree also. As a tank with aggro you still often get your sneak dmg as improved deception is such a common effect now. I know on my rog I've generally got imp deception/bluff debuff up virtually full time on most mobs not to mention radiance etc.

Read again my original statement on smites where I did say that it's possible to be better if the increase is enough which is possible if the increase is enough and using a smite on the 3rd attack hook with a bastard sword is a noticeable increase. However I did not claim that it was better as I don't have the actual swing rates. Therefore I claimed that an ITHF user would just smite on the two swings he got glancings on and the net difference for exalted smite II or III is virtually a push.

Your smite cooldown is only effective as a limit for when you are strictly going off someone who has already used their smites. It is not representative of an actual fight where there is often a couple of smites stored up from the start of the quest or shrining or possible regens from buffing for fights moving between fights etc. If we are talking extended long combats with no breaks sure ill go with your numbers but they are only limits as to what the longest possible cooldown could be but rarely a reality.

Once again though unless we get numbers as to the actual swing rates if using a smite for third attack chain versus others then once again we are talking a virtual push for exalted smite II or III if you don't take exalted smite II or III you are doing less dps than someone who would (theres not enough pally related dps enhancements that would preclude at least exalted smite II from being the better dps option especially if coupled with DS II).

You still fail to take into the account the biggest benefit to 5% double strike over gthf which is the no glancing blows while moving. Even if you get 95% of your glancing blows the doublestrike moves ahead.

And gthf offers no defensive benefit.

I am surprised that neither of you mentioned the benefit of GTHF when surrounded by multiple mobs on swings that aren't cleaves, which moves advantage back toward GTHF. But someone mentioned the math was run that shows GTHF is markedly better than OC, which would make this comparison moot. If these 2 are so close, as it seems, then both should be better than OC. Sure, you lose the big numbers that make people smile, but if it means overall higher DPS...

[Kinerd]

I think you understate life stealing by quite a wide margin. First remember that you are basing that off just regular crit range when this build could often be benefitting from attacks with increased crit range. Smites/momentum swings etc all can boost this plus as a cleave/great cleave chaining build you are more likely to hit mobs with no dmg resulting in a single ccrit taking a large mount of hit points. Also depends on if any others are using nightmares. Often in EE content I have seen up to 7 in one group. That means that more often life stealing is dealing actual dmg because of the much more rapid rate of negative levels. Then of course theres the fact that you do get kills off the pk effect even on the hardest levels although all this damage is often hard to quantify which is why I mentioned not wanting to count in the benefit.

Even if we disagree on whether Life Stealing is good, the crucial point is whether the increase in Life Stealing is significant. Being in a group with many negative levelers reduces the relative impact of you doing very slightly more negative levels, not the other way around.

Sneak attack I have to disagree also. As a tank with aggro you still often get your sneak dmg as improved deception is such a common effect now. I know on my rog I've generally got imp deception/bluff debuff up virtually full time on most mobs not to mention radiance etc.

Certainly rogues have many abilities that generate sneak attack, but what % of groups have rogues? And what % of those rogues will bother with those abilities in a group, when it's very easy to just not have aggro in the first place? I'm not saying both numbers are 0%, I'm just saying we shouldn't assume both are 100%. Combine this with the small relative increase in sneak attack damage, and it's a negligible factor.

Your smite cooldown is only effective as a limit for when you are strictly going off someone who has already used their smites. It is not representative of an actual fight where there is often a couple of smites stored up from the start of the quest or shrining or possible regens from buffing for fights moving between fights etc. If we are talking extended long combats with no breaks sure ill go with your numbers but they are only limits as to what the longest possible cooldown could be but rarely a reality.

I included that factor.

Once again though unless we get numbers as to the actual swing rates if using a smite for third attack chain versus others then once again we are talking a virtual push for exalted smite II or III if you don't take exalted smite II or III you are doing less dps than someone who would (theres not enough pally related dps enhancements that would preclude at least exalted smite II from being the better dps option especially if coupled with DS II).

It's certainly less DPS, but a tank is not entirely or even primarily about DPS.

You still fail to take into the account the biggest benefit to 5% double strike over gthf which is the no glancing blows while moving. Even if you get 95% of your glancing blows the doublestrike moves ahead.

I specifically mentioned how to take that factor into account in this post. We can even do it in reverse and solve for the % movement that tips the scales...

(.16625 * x - .0625) * 50 + (.035625 * x - 0.0475) * 28.375 = 0
8.3125 * x - 3.125 + 1.010859375 * x - 1.3478125 = 0
9.323359375 * x = 4.4728125
x = 47.97%

So long as you're getting glancing blows a little under half the time or more, the GTHF wins in this situation (where, as a reminder, we are assuming the best possible case for damage from the Nightmares magical effect). If we throw in the 1.16 from DS, the number goes up to 60.42%, still very doable.

And gthf offers no defensive benefit.

From my first post I have specifically said "from a pure DPS perspective".

I am surprised that neither of you mentioned the benefit of GTHF when surrounded by multiple mobs on swings that aren't cleaves, which moves advantage back toward GTHF. But someone mentioned the math was run that shows GTHF is markedly better than OC, which would make this comparison moot. If these 2 are so close, as it seems, then both should be better than OC. Sure, you lose the big numbers that make people smile, but if it means overall higher DPS...

I'm not enthused by what a tank does to multiple monsters anyway, but that is true.

[elraido]

I think pallys which are tanks are more pure tanks then fighters which is fine. I also think you should play to their strengths. 2 monk is much better then 2 fighter for a pally - evasion man. My 18 pally 2 monk S&B has all saves at about 60 or higher and has regenerating 6 lay on hands that is some sick stuff. A fighter doesnt have that. Fighter got some other cool stuff, but a defensive pally should go for evasion and be slightly more one dimensional in my opinion - the one dimension being defense.

One thing about evasion is you need light armor. That starts to cut into your PRR. My tank has never had an issue with needing evasion. Like you said, with the regenerating LOH (I have 8) and the sheer amount of HP and saves, he takes most damage with a smile and just keeps on waving at the bad guy.

[Meat-Head]

Bah fighters just do dps sword and boarding far better. Now your right when you say tanking is not really that needed in game at the moment, but you build pally for the saves, and self healing whereas fighters got more of the dps.

Dps?

Assuming both are in LD for dps, I see the pally ahead. No?

What? 2 str for the fighter as opposed to divine might, div sac, div fav, and smites?

Maybe the fighter has stun and wep spec?

Or am I missing something obvious?

[Dolphious]

Dps?

Assuming both are in LD for dps, I see the pally ahead. No?

What? 2 str for the fighter as opposed to divine might, div sac, div fav, and smites?

Maybe the fighter has stun and wep spec?

Or am I missing something obvious?

I assume he's talking about being able to take all the DPS feats without having to make the tough choices that pallies have to. Even a human 18/2 (ftr or monk) has to make tough choices about feats.

[Ape_Man]

Dps?

Assuming both are in LD for dps, I see the pally ahead. No?

What? 2 str for the fighter as opposed to divine might, div sac, div fav, and smites?

Maybe the fighter has stun and wep spec?

Or am I missing something obvious?

Haste boost but you get that with LD.

Fighter's got a zillion feats, more intim potential, etc . . . but I'm curious about the DPS now.

[maddmatt70]

Dps?

Assuming both are in LD for dps, I see the pally ahead. No?

What? 2 str for the fighter as opposed to divine might, div sac, div fav, and smites?

Maybe the fighter has stun and wep spec?

Or am I missing something obvious?

Haha your missing alot of stuff that fighters get. Below is the link to my S&B dps fighter build. Note: the gear needs to be update, but you get the general idea.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...hlight=axehead
Below is a comparison of what fighters and paladins get.

-Fighter Capstone = Zeal.
- Fighter gets Weapon specialization 2 for 4 damage, and 2 more from fighter weapon ehancements,
-I also have fighter haste boost which allows me to spend my destiny points on something else.
-The crit accuracy feat which is 2 or so more damage on average if not more.
-All the GTHF, overwhelming critical, cleave, great cleave, and of course improved critical feat which your having trouble fitting in.
-Quick Draw for faster boost activation.
-Sunder and Stunning blow which add more damage through tactics.
-+3 strength enhancement.

Paladins get divine might, divine favor, zeal, sacrifice and smites. You can not invest that many points into your smites and sacrifice because of the defender requirements and anything less then exalted smite 3 and divine sacrifice 2 are not worthwhile because activating results in less dps due to activation time. Zeal is the equivalent of the Fighter Capstone. Divine favor and divine might are 7 points of damage at best which compared to all the dps fighters get is shrug.

Edit: looking at your OP, I also have improved shield mastery, epic toughness, CE to just name a few feats so my defensive capabilities on my fighter are better whereas all you have a little more saves.

[Dolphious]

Haha your missing alot of stuff that fighters get. Below is the link to my S&B dps fighter build. Note: the gear needs to be update, but you get the general idea.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...hlight=axehead
Below is a comparison of what fighters and paladins get.

-Fighter Capstone = Zeal.
- Fighter gets Weapon specialization 2 for 4 damage, and 2 more from fighter weapon ehancements,
-I also have fighter haste boost which allows me to spend my destiny points on something else.
-The crit accuracy feat which is 2 or so more damage on average if not more.
-All the GTHF, overwhelming critical, cleave, great cleave, and of course improved critical feat which your having trouble fitting in.
-Quick Draw for faster boost activation.
-Sunder and Stunning blow which add more damage through tactics.
-+3 strength enhancement.

Honestly the only part of that which is remotely a big deal are the feat options. Sure FTR is going to be better at S&B DPS, but the margin just isn't that big. Trading that modest DPS for the excellent self healing you can get on a pally is IMO a pretty good deal.

[elraido]

Honestly the only part of that which is remotely a big deal are the feat options. Sure FTR is going to be better at S&B DPS, but the margin just isn't that big. Trading that modest DPS for the excellent self healing you can get on a pally is IMO a pretty good deal.

No, the margin really is that big.

[maddmatt70]

Honestly the only part of that which is remotely a big deal are the feat options. Sure FTR is going to be better at S&B DPS, but the margin just isn't that big. Trading that modest DPS for the excellent self healing you can get on a pally is IMO a pretty good deal.

Yeah it is that big. I keep trying to tell these people to play to a pally's strengths which are that you can make a close to equivalent defensive character with better saves, evasion (2 monk levels), and self healing. With all of that you lose alot of offense, but what have yeah. Go for the defensive build Instead of building something that has less offense and less defense then a fighter. When the enhancement pass comes then there will be different build choices, but until then you get these folks trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.