EE Tanks. I need advice

[Meat-Head]

Hello DDO Brethren and Sistren,


I wanna build an 18/2 Pally/FTR tank with a DPS option. I'm one feat short.

I want to know which is more critical for EE tanking: CE or Improved Shield Mastery.


Here's my feat plan:

H- B.Sword
1- Tough
2- THF
3- iTHF
4- gTHF
5- Imp. Crit Slash
6- Power Attack
7- Shield Mastery
f1- Cleave
f2- gCleave
Epic1- O. Crit
Epic2- EITHER Imp Shield Mastery OR CE.



I'm thinking CE is more important because twisting Improved CE is 20 more PRR.

Imp Shield Mastery nets FIVE PRR plus 5% doublestrike. I don't think that 5% DS is needed hate-wise. So, I figured ISM is the one that's LEAST important.



Thoughts?


PPL with EE tanking experience, tell me what you think?

[MattiG]

I'd agree that CE trumps ISM. or go 3 monk 2 fighter splash and get it all, sacrificing tier 3 stance obviously (but not much else). 2 extra feats, 10% heal amp, evasion, small benefit to saves progression.

A bit more work to hold agro in tier 2 stance, but intolerant blows FTW either way.

[Riekan]

In all honesty, take both CE and ISM and drop improved crit. At end game, you should be grinding out for both the epic chimera's fang and Nightmare from caught in the web as a bastard sword user. Both of these weapons have keen on them. As a fighter tank myself, I found that once I had nightmare I rarely ever swap it out. The vampirism on it is awesome. I use nightmare on all trash and fang on dr bosses. I crafted cold iron on mine, it comes with silver, and with the unyielding sentinel having options for good and holy on all weapons, this bypasses almost all relevant DR in the game.

[whomhead]

Improved crit is a requirement for overwhelming critical. These are the tradeoffs for trying to make tank characters with DPS options.

[arminius]

I would go ISM because you have power attack and you can't run CE and PA at the same time, so at any given moment one of them is wasted. I think the times when you are going to absolutely turtle up and be unconcerned about dps would be few and far between.

And if those times are most important to you, then I'd drop PA before either ISM or CE.

Edit: Of course then cleave, therefore great cleave and overwhelming critical, require power attack, so dumping it would mean starting over the whole concept from scratch. I didn't say it was a good idea, I mean I wouldn't do it. I was just trying to think of what to do if CE was really that important to me.

[elraido]

Improved Shield Mastery. Remember the laws of diminishing returns on AC and PRR. The extra 15 PRR you would get from Combat EX won't net you as much as the 5% double strike. On my tanks, I almost NEVER have combat ex on.

[LeLoric]

Take both and drop GTHF. The doublestrike more than makes up for any lost glancing blow dmg and gives you the best possible tanking stats.

[Munkenmo]

PPL with EE tanking experience, tell me what you think?

I think your build is likely going to fall short for EE intim requirements.

I would also drop greater two handed fighting.

[unbongwah]

I'm thinking CE is more important because twisting Improved CE is 20 more PRR.

Legendary Shield Mastery+SM is 20 PRR w/tower shield, while LSM+ISM is another +10 PRR and +5% doublestrike; i.e., you get half the extra PRR you would from ICE and gain DPS rather than lose it. So I vote ISM: you put so many feats into DPS already - in particular taking CL/GC/OC chain - so why sacrifice any more DPS than you have to? If I'm adding right, with ISM, you'll have 140-150 PRR w/gear and in DoS + Unbreakable stances; the +20 PRR from ICE is less than 3% extra dmg mitigation. EDIT: and no one seems to be suggesting that the extra AC makes a darn bit of difference in EE, so I presume that's irrelevant, same as always.

[Zerkul]

Take both and drop GTHF. The doublestrike more than makes up for any lost glancing blow dmg and gives you the best possible tanking stats.

I agree ... or just ignore CE: Combat Expertise means you cannot use Power Attack and this means that you will not be able to use momentum swing and, possibly, laywaste... two abilities that improve your DPS drammatically. Without a consistent DPS you might loose aggro against the most fierce DPSesses unless you work with that US ability which sky-raise it for few seconds.

I also think that nothing currently ingame requires CE on to be tanked. High AC, PRR and a little of Dodge is all you need and you don't need CE to get it: i only use CE when i get overwhelmed or i need that little added surviving edge for critical situations, for most of the time i run with PA.

[Ralmeth]

I recommend both CE and ISM and would drop one of your other feats such as GTHF. ISM is awesome and you won't want to be without it. As for CE I agree with other vet Pallys that you don't use CE that much...I almost always have PA on, but when things really hit the fan you want to turn on as much defense as you can get, and this is what CE is most useful for. As for someone's suggestion to do a deeper splash, don't do it. The benefits of DoS III are key to your effectiveness as a Pally tank.

[elraido]

EDIT: and no one seems to be suggesting that the extra AC makes a darn bit of difference in EE, so I presume that's irrelevant, same as always.

I wouldn't say that. The changes have made some difference in EE. I used to have around a 94 AC on the old AC system. It didn't do squat most of the time on EE. Now with a 140+ AC, they do miss....not a ton, but it does make a difference. The thing is, with CE while it adds a nice % bonus to AC, it doesn't add that much of a % to be missed. I think it ends up being like 2-3% on my guy. 99% of the time, I don't need that extra 2-3% vs the DPS I can be putting out with PA. Same with the extra PRR bonus you get from it...it is around the same 2-3% for most tanks.

[Scraap]

What ED do you want to end up in, and what twists? So far for m'self, CE's been a ridiculously low usage state vs power attack due to the diminishing returns. I'd also point out that the Unyielding Sentinal shield lines require the feats per tick (so proficiency for spending once, mastery for 2 points, improved for 3 points).

*disclaimer: SD 18/2monk S&B most of the time when tanking, so the defense is most of the way there just for breathing.

[squishwizzy]

I'd agree that CE trumps ISM. or go 3 monk 2 fighter splash and get it all, sacrificing tier 3 stance obviously (but not much else). 2 extra feats, 10% heal amp, evasion, small benefit to saves progression.

A bit more work to hold agro in tier 2 stance, but intolerant blows FTW either way.

What about a pure pally build? Would CE still trump ISM?

(I'm running a pule pally tank. Just want to see if the same holds true with pure versus splash.)

[elraido]

What about a pure pally build? Would CE still trump ISM?

(I'm running a pule pally tank. Just want to see if the same holds true with pure versus splash.)

I am a pure pally tank. And no, CE does not trump ISM.

[me_TOO]

In all honesty, take both CE and ISM and drop improved crit. At end game, you should be grinding out for both the epic chimera's fang and Nightmare from caught in the web as a bastard sword user. Both of these weapons have keen on them. As a fighter tank myself, I found that once I had nightmare I rarely ever swap it out. The vampirism on it is awesome. I use nightmare on all trash and fang on dr bosses. I crafted cold iron on mine, it comes with silver, and with the unyielding sentinel having options for good and holy on all weapons, this bypasses almost all relevant DR in the game.

this.

I run a 18/2 pally. Go with both and drop gthf until you get them/one . Lots of build options. Right now im running with sentinal dragon marks so i get free BS prof with echimera's (which is really your weapon of choices with the sentinel marks) and only take thf. With the added incite from the full mark benefit plus getting a +10 weapon its pretty much impossible to take agro from me, not even dragon breath from a sorc or maxxed out fury barbs can do it, especial with intolerant blows and divine righteousness. I twist in momentum swing, laywaste and legendary shield mastery. This toon is a first lifer aswell.

this is JD btw

[unbongwah]

The thing is, with CE while it adds a nice % bonus to AC, it doesn't add that much of a % to be missed. I think it ends up being like 2-3% on my guy. 99% of the time, I don't need that extra 2-3% vs the DPS I can be putting out with PA. Same with the extra PRR bonus you get from it...it is around the same 2-3% for most tanks.

Well, yeah, that's my point: w/CE you get a slight increase in miss chance & PRR; but how often does it matter in EEs? And you give up a decent chunk of DPS by switching from PA to CE: not just the base +5 (presuming S&B), but also the +0.5[W] from IPA if he has it twisted in (presuming US as ED); you also can't use LW or MS while PA is off.

It just looks like the OP put a lot of emphasis on their DPS, so giving up a persistent bonus to S&B DPS for a marginal gain in defense which will rarely be used seems counter-productive, IMHO. But perhaps I'm wrong and that extra 2-3% protection is what makes the difference between a wipe and a completion...

[Kinerd]

Take both and drop GTHF. The doublestrike more than makes up for any lost glancing blow dmg and gives you the best possible tanking stats.

I think this an interesting mathematical proposal so let's look at it in more detail:

5% double-strike with a bastard sword's critical profile of 25 (with OC) gives...
.05 * 25 * base
= 1.25 * base

GTHF gives us +10% damage and +25% proc rate for glancing blows, or...
+ 19 * .5 * .1 * base
+ 19 * .25 * .5 * base
= 11.875 * base
...assuming we don't twist in any glancing blow stuff or run in Fury or some other crazy idea.

So in terms of raw damage the GTHF is 10.625 ahead, but what about magical effects? Well:

5% double-strike gives...
.05 * 19 on-hit
(also .05 * 4 on-crit and .05 * 1 on-vorpal, but we'll put that aside for now)
= .95 on-hit

GTHF gives...
19 * .5 * .03 on-hit
19 * .25 * .09 on-hit
= .7125 on-hit

In terms of on-hit effects the double-strike is .2425 ahead, so we technically need to know what our base and what our on-hit effects are to know for sure which one wins out, but it's pretty unlikely that you have 44 times as much damage from on-hit effects so I'd go with the GTHF from a pure DPS perspective.

[unbongwah]

What about GTHF vs OC?

[Kinerd]

GTHF by a mile. OC is +2 * base, no benefit to magical procs.