EE Tanks. I need advice

[Dolphious]

Yeah it is that big. I keep trying to tell these people to play to a pally's strengths which are that you can make a close to equivalent defensive character with better saves, evasion (2 monk levels), and self healing. With all of that you lose alot of offense, but what have yeah. Go for the defensive build Instead of building something that has less offense and less defense then a fighter. When the enhancement pass comes then there will be different build choices, but until then you get these folks trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

The thing is you just don't need that additional defense from US, CE, Epic toughness compared to dreadnaught, PA, and cleaves. So you've got 140 instead of 100 PRR, and 1300 HP instead of 1000, I would much rather the massive DPS boost from being a dreadnaught type.

And I've done both, last life my pally was 18/2 monk US defensive focused. Now he's Pally 20 with PA, Cleave, GC, OC dreadnaught. I can still tank pretty much anything (granted I haven't done EE LoB, so maybe that's an exception). I even self healed through the boss in EE reclaiming the rift, how much more defense do you really need?

Maybe there will be some big new boss in a future update and I'll have to make a choice between that DPS stuff and being a serious tank, but right now I feel like I have the best of both worlds.

RE: fighter vs. pally

Ultimately it's a matter of taste . Quickened self heals for 250-300 (with no meta magic) every few seconds or 15% more DPS? I'm comfortable with my choice.

[Jacoby]

Take both and drop GTHF. The doublestrike more than makes up for any lost glancing blow dmg and gives you the best possible tanking stats.

I second this post... If your going to "tank" then I would lean more toward defense. I'm working on a similar buid with the same concept but taking an entirely different path. The build your demonstrating is a meat shield with a stick, not a tank. I know, I know the whole EE AC argument, whatever... I know very few regular players that even run EE anymore. The build can still work, if played as intended. I'm messing around with one myself, on his second life now closing in on the third. I think the key point of Epic Elite quests is that you have to play your role as intended with a party to compliment your role. When you try to deviate or fullfill too many roles your not going to be as effective. Your option for DPS would be a purely non-epic elite role. DPS in EPIC Elite is going to be fore those spec'd to fullfil those roles exclusively, Barbs and Casters and toons spec'd for those roles. That's why you have so many meat bags that claim to be a tank drop like a rock and cry foul to the cleric for not keeping them up.

[maddmatt70]

The thing is you just don't need that additional defense from US, CE, Epic toughness compared to dreadnaught, PA, and cleaves. So you've got 140 instead of 100 PRR, and 1300 HP instead of 1000, I would much rather the massive DPS boost from being a dreadnaught type.

And I've done both, last life my pally was 18/2 monk US defensive focused. Now he's Pally 20 with PA, Cleave, GC, OC dreadnaught. I can still tank pretty much anything (granted I haven't done EE LoB, so maybe that's an exception). I even self healed through the boss in EE reclaiming the rift, how much more defense do you really need?

Maybe there will be some big new boss in a future update and I'll have to make a choice between that DPS stuff and being a serious tank, but right now I feel like I have the best of both worlds.

RE: fighter vs. pally

Ultimately it's a matter of taste . Quickened self heals for 250-300 (with no meta magic) every few seconds or 15% more DPS? I'm comfortable with my choice.

The build you espouse does less dps and has less defense and has less cc as well then a level 20 fighter; hence, it is inferior. What can be used to tank now will likely not be sufficient at some point in the future. Epic elite gianthold tor, epic elite crucible, and the epic elite reaver raid seem like great playgrounds for a pally 18 monk 2 defensive oriented character. My 18 pally 2 monk can solo and shortman epic elite quests - it just can take him a while to solo because he lacks dps, but what have you. An 18 pally 2 monk is great in shortmans in epic elite though. Quickened self heals? You mean lay on hands or do you actually invest feats and extensive gear and ehancements in healing which in turn means you do even less dps and have less defense but what have yeah.

[Dolphious]

The build you espouse does less dps and has less defense and has less cc as well then a level 20 fighter; hence, it is inferior.

And your build has what over a fighter? Evasion? Had it, don't miss it. It's all about making the save; make the save you live, fail you die. You just need a heal after if you don't have evasion.

What can be used to tank now will likely not be sufficient at some point in the future. Epic elite gianthold tor, epic elite crucible, and the epic elite reaver raid seem like great playgrounds for a pally 18 monk 2 defensive oriented character.

IOW as of right now, not counting quests that exist only in your imagination, I can do everything you can, but I do it faster, gochya. If Gianthold comes out and I want evasion, I'll respec and get it then. No need to gimp my toon until then.

My 18 pally 2 monk can solo and shortman epic elite quests - it just can take him a while to solo because he lacks dps, but what have you. An 18 pally 2 monk is great in shortmans in epic elite though.

I've also soloed some easier EEs on my pally, and it doesn't take all day. In fact when I can run masters blitz through it (quite common solo) it's pretty fast.

Quickened self heals? You mean lay on hands or do you actually invest feats and extensive gear and ehancements in healing which in turn means you do even less dps and have less defense but what have yeah.

Oh I see, you're one of those pallies that can't actually self heal, just has a few "oh Sh**" buttons so needs something else to justify the build.

Quicken is great for healing. A quickened heal followed by a cleave attack has almost no break in attacks.

[edit] now I feel bad, that was harsher than I meant it. I think an evasion defensive focused pally is a good build, and to each their own. I just think there's more than one way to skin this cat and trading some defense for DPS is a completely reasonable decision.

[verad]

My 18/2 pal/fighter 1400 hp 150 PRR 140 ac 0 dodge pure defensive build
vs
My 18/2 pal/mnk 1600 hp 50 PRR 70 ac build with 15% dodge ESOS+cleaves

The first one tanked well EE content but casters would drop me still very fast.
My dps was minimal but with the damage mitagation and high intimidate I
rarely lost agro.

Now the 2nd build was fun I can jump into any sort of combat and with 50+
saves evade spells and traps alike. It was a great bust out in front character
grab as much agro as i could and spam cleaves. Healers don't mind focusing
on me for heals instead of 4 different people and I had a nice high hp number
to soak crit heals and take alot of damage fast. The 2nd build was pretty
horrid at end game EE bosses though and thats were build 1 was missed.

Currently I'm going to try a 18/2 fighter/mnk with 1600 hp 110 PRR 90 ac 21%
dodge build with evasion and pure defensive sword and board with light armor
to see if that build can actually be top dog defensively for EE content.

V

[maddmatt70]

My 18/2 pal/fighter 1400 hp 150 PRR 140 ac 0 dodge pure defensive build
vs
My 18/2 pal/mnk 1600 hp 50 PRR 70 ac build with 15% dodge ESOS+cleaves

The first one tanked well EE content but casters would drop me still very fast.
My dps was minimal but with the damage mitagation and high intimidate I
rarely lost agro.

Now the 2nd build was fun I can jump into any sort of combat and with 50+
saves evade spells and traps alike. It was a great bust out in front character
grab as much agro as i could and spam cleaves. Healers don't mind focusing
on me for heals instead of 4 different people and I had a nice high hp number
to soak crit heals and take alot of damage fast. The 2nd build was pretty
horrid at end game EE bosses though and thats were build 1 was missed.

Currently I'm going to try a 18/2 fighter/mnk with 1600 hp 110 PRR 90 ac 21%
dodge build with evasion and pure defensive sword and board with light armor
to see if that build can actually be top dog defensively for EE content.

V

I would say with the 2nd pally build go sword and board and too much investment in hit points. Generally hit points are overrated when it comes to tanking. My sword and board 18 pally 2 monk has about 1000 hp, 130 prr, 130 ac, 22% dodge, All saves 60+. Last night me and some guildies and friends zerged all three of the last set of the MOTU on epic elite. None of the three did we have a dedicated healer. I tanked the bosses on all three. I used regenerating lay on hands and silver flame pots for healing.

[elraido]

I would say with the 2nd pally build go sword and board and too much investment in hit points. .

I was thinking the same thing. My main, he only has around 1100 hp, give or take in U.S. and 900 in dreadnaught. I was scratching my head as to how someone got 1600 hp with out severely limiting other areas of the build.

[Meat-Head]

Haha your missing alot of stuff that fighters get. Below is the link to my S&B dps fighter build. Note: the gear needs to be update, but you get the general idea.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...hlight=axehead
Below is a comparison of what fighters and paladins get.

-Fighter Capstone = Zeal.
- Fighter gets Weapon specialization 2 for 4 damage, and 2 more from fighter weapon ehancements,
-I also have fighter haste boost which allows me to spend my destiny points on something else.
-The crit accuracy feat which is 2 or so more damage on average if not more.
-All the GTHF, overwhelming critical, cleave, great cleave, and of course improved critical feat which your having trouble fitting in.
-Quick Draw for faster boost activation.
-Sunder and Stunning blow which add more damage through tactics.
-+3 strength enhancement.

Paladins get divine might, divine favor, zeal, sacrifice and smites. You can not invest that many points into your smites and sacrifice because of the defender requirements and anything less then exalted smite 3 and divine sacrifice 2 are not worthwhile because activating results in less dps due to activation time. Zeal is the equivalent of the Fighter Capstone. Divine favor and divine might are 7 points of damage at best which compared to all the dps fighters get is shrug.

Edit: looking at your OP, I also have improved shield mastery, epic toughness, CE to just name a few feats so my defensive capabilities on my fighter are better whereas all you have a little more saves.

Let's look closer..

Imma assume both are using the Nightmare BSword T3. Both have thf line, both have O.Crit. I'm going to ignore doublestrike, as the % is the same.

-Divine Might 3 and Ftr Wep Spec+Enh cancel each other out (both 6 dmg per swing)
-Zeal and FTR capstone cancel
-Gonna assume you can get 1 more str mod with FTR than the 18/2 Pally/Ftr

-Pally is getting +3 per hit from Divine Favor + Smites + Div Sac (gonna guess that it's about 3 pts of light dmg per hit on avg. The extra crit multiplier would take me time to calculate. But I'll ballpark and say it grants another 2dmg per hit on avg). SO pally ends up with about +8 dmg per swing NOT including smites.

-FTR gets +1 from extra str mod. FTR gets CC abilities. Fighter gets fort/ac reduction abilities. FTR Gets better AC & intim potential.




So, unless the mob is stunned, I'm seeing a slight advantage on the pally for S&B dps. The FTR has more flexibility and tactics choices (obvs).


Pally gets saves, heals, and buffs.

Actually, it seems really well balanced to me. That being said, imma cap this 18/2 build (lvl 14 atm) and try it out. If I don't like it, I may TR to ftr. We'll see.

[elraido]

Let's look closer..

Imma assume both are using the Nightmare BSword T3. Both have thf line, both have O.Crit. I'm going to ignore doublestrike, as the % is the same.

-Divine Might 3 and Ftr Wep Spec+Enh cancel each other out (both 6 dmg per swing)
-Zeal and FTR capstone cancel
-Gonna assume you can get 1 more str mod with FTR than the 18/2 Pally/Ftr

-Pally is getting +3 per hit from Divine Favor + Smites + Div Sac (gonna guess that it's about 3 pts of light dmg per hit on avg. The extra crit multiplier would take me time to calculate. But I'll ballpark and say it grants another 2dmg per hit on avg). SO pally ends up with about +8 dmg per swing NOT including smites.

-FTR gets +1 from extra str mod. FTR gets CC abilities. Fighter gets fort/ac reduction abilities. FTR Gets better AC & intim potential.
.

Fighters get Fighter Haste Boost. While you can twist it in on a paladin, it takes a lot of work to do so. And any extended fight, Divine Might will need to be recast. That animation takes a LONG time. That is a TON of attacks that a fighter is making that paladin can't. Same thing with Divine Favor.

[maddmatt70]

Let's look closer..

Imma assume both are using the Nightmare BSword T3. Both have thf line, both have O.Crit. I'm going to ignore doublestrike, as the % is the same.

-Divine Might 3 and Ftr Wep Spec+Enh cancel each other out (both 6 dmg per swing)
-Zeal and FTR capstone cancel
-Gonna assume you can get 1 more str mod with FTR than the 18/2 Pally/Ftr

-Pally is getting +3 per hit from Divine Favor + Smites + Div Sac (gonna guess that it's about 3 pts of light dmg per hit on avg. The extra crit multiplier would take me time to calculate. But I'll ballpark and say it grants another 2dmg per hit on avg). SO pally ends up with about +8 dmg per swing NOT including smites.

-FTR gets +1 from extra str mod. FTR gets CC abilities. Fighter gets fort/ac reduction abilities. FTR Gets better AC & intim potential.




So, unless the mob is stunned, I'm seeing a slight advantage on the pally for S&B dps. The FTR has more flexibility and tactics choices (obvs).


Pally gets saves, heals, and buffs.

Actually, it seems really well balanced to me. That being said, imma cap this 18/2 build (lvl 14 atm) and try it out. If I don't like it, I may TR to ftr. We'll see.

You neglected to mention the following in your analysis:
1. critical accuracy feat which Is +2 to crit damage before multipliers which is over 2 damage per swing in Legendary Dreadnaught and a fighter can easily fit in.
2. Quick Draw Feat which results in faster activation for boosts like haste boost.
3. Class enhancements for haste boost in the fighter class thus saving destiny points for more dps enhancements in legendary dreadnaught.
4. Improved Sunder which reduces fortification and is used particularly on boss's for more dps vs. bosses.
5. Fighter extra action boost.
6. You mention in your OP that you are not taking improved shield mastery which would mean double strike loss.
7. Lay out your pally class enhancements and you will find a Pally Defender 3 can not fit in divine might 3, exalted smite 3 and divine sacrifice 2. This is a big problem for paladin builds of this type they have to make some difficult decisions due to the way the current ehancement system is set up.

[pelaaja]

Fighters get Fighter Haste Boost. While you can twist it in on a paladin, it takes a lot of work to do so. And any extended fight, Divine Might will need to be recast. That animation takes a LONG time. That is a TON of attacks that a fighter is making that paladin can't. Same thing with Divine Favor.

...Paladins have heals. Paladins can also twist Turn undead regen from Exalted angel to keep that +6 damage always.

You neglected to mention the following in your analysis:
1. critical accuracy feat which Is +2 to crit damage before multipliers which is over 2 damage per swing in Legendary Dreadnaught and a fighter can easily fit in.
2. Quick Draw Feat which results in faster activation for boosts like haste boost.
3. Class enhancements for haste boost in the fighter class thus saving destiny points for more dps enhancements in legendary dreadnaught.
4. Improved Sunder which reduces fortification and is used particularly on boss's for more dps vs. bosses.
5. Fighter extra action boost.
6. You mention in your OP that you are not taking improved shield mastery which would mean double strike loss.
7. Lay out your pally class enhancements and you will find a Pally Defender 3 can not fit in divine might 3, exalted smite 3 and divine sacrifice 2. This is a big problem for paladin builds of this type they have to make some difficult decisions due to the way the current ehancement system is set up.

1. Critical accuracy feat is a feat you can neglect.

2. Paladins don't use boosts that much, excluding twisted abilities.

3. Though If you're a tank, I think you'd be in Unyielding Sentinel, which is favored by Paladins. in DPS mode, you'd be in either FotW or Dreadnaught (FotW could be better for Paladins due to Adrenaline/Smite combo )

4. True, and you can sacrifise CE for that if you really want it for Paladins.

5. Paladin: Heals and saves = better survivability

6. I still advice Maximize, Quicken and ISM over Cleave, Greater Cleave and OC

7. A bit true. We'll hope the enhancements revamp does something better for us. We have to sacrifice something else to get at least Exalted Smite 2, Divine Sacrifice 2 and Divine Might 3.

[elraido]

...Paladins have heals. Paladins can also twist Turn undead regen from Exalted angel to keep that +6 damage always.
1. Critical accuracy feat is a feat you can neglect.

2. Paladins don't use boosts that much, excluding twisted abilities.

3. Though If you're a tank, I think you'd be in Unyielding Sentinel, which is favored by Paladins. in DPS mode, you'd be in either FotW or Dreadnaught (FotW could be better for Paladins due to Adrenaline/Smite combo )

4. True, and you can sacrifise CE for that if you really want it for Paladins.

5. Paladin: Heals and saves = better survivability

6. I still advice Maximize, Quicken and ISM over Cleave, Greater Cleave and OC

7. A bit true. We'll hope the enhancements revamp does something better for us. We have to sacrifice something else to get at least Exalted Smite 2, Divine Sacrifice 2 and Divine Might 3.

Yes Paladins have heals. A fighter can also heal them selves just as well with silver flame pots and some healing amp as long as the don't gimp any stat....and with how tomes are now a days, you can still start with an 8 and get a +3 tome to bring you up to 11.

On my tank, I have zero need for maximize and quicken. Zero. If you are on EE raids, you have divines to help you. Anything below that, and you can keep yourself up with nothing but LOH. If you are getting pummeled enough to where you need 8+ LOH that should heal for around 800+ a pop, then you are doing something wrong. Heck, my cure mods hit myself for over 100 because of healing amp and my concentration is normally high enough to where I don't fail that often. Then there are heal scrolls (after battles or in, doesn't really matter) and vamp items as well to help off set in battle damage.

No one is arguing the solo survivability of a paladin. But like I said, all it takes is silver flames pots and some decent healing amp for a fighter to do basically the same thing.

As for twisting the undead regen for unlimited divine might, that wasn't the point. The point was the cast time of the ability itself. It is slow. Stupidly slow. You actually LOSE total DPS by casting it some battles. I have never run out of turn undeads to cast divine might myself...and I went up to tier 4 with it, so I am hitting for +8 more damage....but I debate if I should cast it after the min is up.

[pelaaja]

Yes Paladins have heals. A fighter can also heal them selves just as well with silver flame pots and some healing amp as long as the don't gimp any stat....and with how tomes are now a days, you can still start with an 8 and get a +3 tome to bring you up to 11.

So can barbs... But that wasn't the point. even Paladins can go get the SF pots if they wanted to for more healing.

On my tank, I have zero need for maximize and quicken. Zero.

Oh, the Maximize and Quicken is for soloing... If I wanted to, I'd switch out those for Extend and Bulwark of Defense if I wouldn't solo.

And if I want to go further, I could sacrifice also CE for the OC line then.

[elraido]

So can barbs... But that wasn't the point. even Paladins can go get the SF pots if they wanted to for more healing.


Oh, the Maximize and Quicken is for soloing... If I wanted to, I'd switch out those for Extend and Bulwark of Defense if I wouldn't solo.

And if I want to go further, I could sacrifice also CE for the OC line then.

I still solo and I don't need maximize and quicken. Personally, I feel like a tank doesn't need any metamagic feats. Normally incoming damage is so low and infrequent, even when soloing, that it doesn't matter.

I do have access to silver flame pots on my paladin. I don't use them either. But for others, they basically bring their class up to a paladins ability to self survive...it just takes more inventory space and plat.

The point was, everyone is saying that a paladin can do the same dps as a fighter while still having better healing. When they introduced the silver flame pots and made healing amp readily available, that advantage went away.

[Dolphious]

If you are on EE raids, you have divines to help you. Anything below that, and you can keep yourself up with nothing but LOH.

What do you mean by "anything below that." Are you soloing EE quest (non-raids) with just your lay on hands?

No one is arguing the solo survivability of a paladin. But like I said, all it takes is silver flames pots and some decent healing amp for a fighter to do basically the same thing.

A fighter with SF pots is roughly similar to a pally without quicken. Throw in quicken and you're on a whole new level. A quickened cure serious followed by a cleave takes very, very little time, much faster than drinking a pot.

And running around with -10 to all you stats all the time has plenty of down sides, -125 HP, -5 damage, -5 tactics DCs, -5 to all saves, etc not to to mention being one off-stat drain away from being helpless.

[verad]

I was thinking the same thing. My main, he only has around 1100 hp, give or take in U.S. and 900 in dreadnaught. I was scratching my head as to how someone got 1600 hp with out severely limiting other areas of the build.

I'm a longtime player who's WF with +5 con tome and nice gear =)

There is a lot of 3 bears debate here of too little too much and just right....in this case its just right for me.
I like having the buffer and my healers do to. The healer doesn't have to be spot on worry about lag and
I can throw LOH for 600 hp.

Its a DPS build that can tank...its fun but you need the right gear/lives/tomes.

V

[elraido]

What do you mean by "anything below that." Are you soloing EE quest (non-raids) with just your lay on hands?


A fighter with SF pots is roughly similar to a pally without quicken. Throw in quicken and you're on a whole new level. A quickened cure serious followed by a cleave takes very, very little time, much faster than drinking a pot.

And running around with -10 to all you stats all the time has plenty of down sides, -125 HP, -5 damage, -5 tactics DCs, -5 to all saves, etc not to to mention being one off-stat drain away from being helpless.

Before the epic levels came out, I even soloed VoD on my paladin with just LoH's and heal scrolls. I have soloed some EE's on him....not exactly fun or quick but I can do it. Normally, I use heal scrolls or cure mods with Wall of Wood's healing enhancement.

[elraido]

I'm a longtime player who's WF with +5 con tome and nice gear =)

There is a lot of 3 bears debate here of too little too much and just right....in this case its just right for me.
I like having the buffer and my healers do to. The healer doesn't have to be spot on worry about lag and
I can throw LOH for 600 hp.

Its a DPS build that can tank...its fun but you need the right gear/lives/tomes.

V

My guy isn't lacking in gear either. He was literally the first toon I rolled on here and I almost play him exclusivly (I have one other 24, a 21, one TR who is now level 14, and a 19). WF and a +5 con tome would be only +4 more total con than my toon. Still scratching my head as how you have 500 more hp. My LoH are hitting for almost 900, so either I have a good amount more Charisma or healing amp than you.

[die]

Take both and drop GTHF. The doublestrike more than makes up for any lost glancing blow dmg and gives you the best possible tanking stats.

This

[Wipey]

My guy isn't lacking in gear either. He was literally the first toon I rolled on here and I almost play him exclusivly (I have one other 24, a 21, one TR who is now level 14, and a 19). WF and a +5 con tome would be only +4 more total con than my toon. Still scratching my head as how you have 500 more hp. My LoH are hitting for almost 900, so either I have a good amount more Charisma or healing amp than you.

His con is really high, maybe yugo, bard or some con in sentinel. Hope it's ok to link Verad's toon, I LOVE checking other setups :-)
http://ddocrafting.info/index.php?se...ookup!&p=myddo
Charisma almost same as yours but toaster so worse lohs ?
My fighter in every day gear dread to compare, 16 base, 4 tome, 2 ship, 1 toughness, no bard, yugo or epic toughness. Air GS and devotion on shintao for cocoon.
http://ddocrafting.info/index.php?se...ookup!&p=myddo
Many ways to build a tank.

My question for pallies, can you keep yourself up with max+quicken+lohs alone in elites ? In combat I mean, because fighter can umd scrolls or twist hjeals for out of combat too.