Level 5 and running into SP problems

[darthhento]

Vibrant Purple Ioun Stone.
Done.

[Postumus]

Your eternal wand of finger of fire? It is a machine gun.

Ha ha ha that is so true. Let a summons get aggro or a charm get aggro and just burn through those charges on the fire wand!


Regarding Zombie form. Definitely try it out. It provides heavy fort, underwater action, DR 5/slash, and +2 con as well as self-healing. On a first life, untwinked wiz, I think it comes in handy. Using it also will get you accustomed to when to drop out of form (or use different tactics) when fighting foes that like to hit you with light damage. Also using Necrotic Touch while using lesser death aura will save you a lot of SPs.


If you don't want to use Master's Touch, then do what you can to boost your spell power for necrotic spells (which you should be doing anyway) and you can alternate between Chill Touch and Necrotic Touch while running Lesser Death Aura. One strategy is to cast web, then walk up into the thick of things with Lesser Death Aura running and just cycle through Chill Touch, Necrotic Touch, and Acid Spray) until they die.


This brings up the question of combat style. Do you want to be primarily a Jump & Kite caster, or a Turtle caster?


Jump & Kite casters might typically cast AoEs like Firewall and run/jump backwards through the Firewall while dragging monsters back and forth through them while casting DoTs and other spells. It's an effective method, but it can take a little while to get good at it. And if you do it in a PUG, you probably won't make a ton of friends unless you do it right: kite the monsters to the melee or diplo.


Turtle casters might typically cast Firewall and stand right in the middle of it shield blocking until the monsters die. This can be effective if you have death aura going and damage mitigation and/or guards. The combination of the shield DR and PRR with your constant healing should outpace any incoming damage while allowing you to cast necro touch over and over. In PUGs this method has the advantage of keeping everything still and in one spot so melee don't have to chase it all over the dungeon.


Both methods are good to know and have their advantages.

[squishwizzy]

Ha ha ha that is so true. Let a summons get aggro or a charm get aggro and just burn through those charges on the fire wand!

Yeah. And I beleive it recharges on its own fairly quickly, as does one of those eternal wands of Magic Missle.

The funny thing is that before I went the Master's Touch route, I used it a lot at lower levels. This time, however, I rarely used it at all.

[Carpone]

Stop using Fireball unless you are in a group, because in solo getting stuff to group up will be annoying, and potentially fatal to your toon.

Just the opposite. When soloing, it's much easier to group mobs up to fireball them. Trying to pull just one or two mobs at a time to kill is precisely what's draining your SP pool rapidly. Been there, done that when I first started playing.

Things you can do to optimize spell points:
1. Run content on Normal difficulty. Mobs have much fewer HP, so one Fireball will finish them off.
2. Increase your INT as high as it can go. INT gives you SP, and decreases the chance that mobs will take half damage from Fireball.
3. Purchase all the SP enhancements you can as soon as you can.
4. Purchase all the fire spell enhancements you can as soon as you can.
5. Buy Combustion items to increase your fire damage.
6. Buy Wizardry or Power items to increase your SP pool.
7. Learn the quests. Figuring out the choke points where you can gather a bunch of mobs together and fireball will only come with experience.

You should be using Fireball at 5th level. For mobs with Evasion, use Scorching Ray.

Zombie form is terrible. The reduced movement is more of a detriment than healing via Lesser Death Aura is a benefit. Instead go buy Cure Serious Wound potions. They'll get you through level 11 easily.

Forget Haste when you solo. Use Expeditious Retreat instead for a movement boost.

Use Blur or Displacement for gathering mobs up to Fireball.

[Zachski]

Just the opposite. When soloing, it's much easier to group mobs up to fireball them. Trying to pull just one or two mobs at a time to kill is precisely what's draining your SP pool rapidly.

I wasn't aware that green alert was "one or two mobs" :P

[squishwizzy]

Just the opposite. When soloing, it's much easier to group mobs up to fireball them. Trying to pull just one or two mobs at a time to kill is precisely what's draining your SP pool rapidly. Been there, done that when I first started playing.

Things you can do to optimize spell points:
1. Run content on Normal difficulty. Mobs have much fewer HP, so one Fireball will finish them off.


Use Blur or Displacement for gathering mobs up to Fireball.

You know, I agree and disagree with you. Yeah, running stuff on normal is a SP-conserving option, however, with the BB thing, not a lot of players are going to do this even if they solo content (at least as far as I've seen).

In the same vein, yeah you can get them to group around you or maybe a summon, but sometimes that doesn't always happen consistently. There will always be one or two that break off from the pack and go after you because they spot you. And even with manual targeting, you may not always get that fireball to land on the main group - sometimes it hits the guys coming your way.

Plus, there is a slight problem with gathering them up close. I've noticed that sometimes when when you have a foe targeted, some of the ranged AoEs do not land like they should. The casting animation goes off, and sometimes you'll see a fireball, but it wizzes right by the targeted mob and explodes in the distance. It only seems to happen with stuff like Acid Blast, Fire Ball, and so on. It's like there is a minimum distance requirement in order for it to go off successfully.

Again, agreeing with you on some aspects, but I think your argument targets ideal conditions.

Zombie form is terrible. The reduced movement is more of a detriment than healing via Lesser Death Aura is a benefit. Instead go buy Cure Serious Wound potions. They'll get you through level 11 easily.

I'll second this.

I've TR-ed my wizzy into a PM because, well, I want to try a PM (always went AM). For kicks, and to try out the shrouds, I took zombie form when it first became available.

Man, what a SP sinkhole! The self-healing with death aura does NOT justify the self-healing. Halfway to the shrine, you're tapped. The best you can go is lesser death aura, which is rather anemic for self-healing options. On the last quest with a PUG on elite, I just stayed out of the form, and was FAR more successful at managing SP than when I was in form.

Plus the healer was trying to heal me with cause harm spells. Not sure if they worked all that well, but for his sake I left Zombie form behind and spot-healed with CSW pots. WAY more effective.

The same, I think, would hold true with solo content as well.

[hermespan]

Yep, already starting to feel Wizard's limitations. But the ability to change spells in any tavern is precisely as addicting as Sorcerer's cast speed and spell points.

I'm an elf, but that extra 20 SP from Elven Arcanum I isn't enough.

I'm starting to wonder if I should just ignore my level 3 spells for the moment, unless I party play. Regardless, I've run into a few problems. Right now, I have 374 SP and 23 intelligence.

1. Fireball costs a whopping 15 SP to cast. While this is cheaper than 20 SP, it still quickly drains my SP, even when I gather as many enemies as I can find together.

2. Extended Haste costs freaking 30 SP. That's almost a tenth of my SP bar for a minute's worth of 40% run speed.

It seems like the most obvious answer to me isn't to add more SP, but change how I'm using it. Namely, I need to change my normal spell layout.

My current spell layout:

1: Niac's Cold Ray, Shield, Jump, Feather Fall
2: Web, Blur, Knock
3: Fireball, Haste

As far as other level 3 spells go, I still need to build up my collection -- other than Fireball and Haste, I also have Frost Lance and Lightning Bolt.

I realize that web and fireball are incompatible, which is why I'm thinking of switching at least Fireball out. And Haste is probably not that useful right now, but I have Anger's Step which is 10 minutes of Exp. Retreat, so it's not that imperative that I load up Exp. Retreat as a spell.

I don't want to use Master's Touch. For one thing, I have 8 strength (because I wanted to start with 16 Con). For another... I don't want to use Master's Touch.

Eh... keep going. Early on there are definitely issues, but around level 9 bonuses and gear begin to compensate. I have a pre U-14 wizard I've built, an archmage, and he's got 2400 SP with very little epic gear at level 20 with no epic destiny points. He's got the ornamented dagger, shroud greensteel HP/concordant op item, and archmage spec. He's got 412 HP and 18 STR (with +6 item) when ship buffed so it's not like I dumped con or turned him into Raistlin Majere to get that number of SP.

I heartily recommend taking archmage, spell point, and mental toughness enhancements at first. You can simply reset them when it's time to do your PrE and switch to pale master. Just build and feat for pale master. When the time comes, reset enhancements and set up for pale master.

You can make your sp go a lot further by using archmage SLAs and since you can just reset your enhancements at any time it won't hurt you later. 1 sp magic missile is awesome at low level

As you level higher and higher your bonuses go on a curve that gets more and more significant the higher level you are.

when you can get PM II (level 12) it's time to switch.

That's around the time AM SLAs start to get useless anyway and also happens to be when pale master starts getting really cool. I went warforged and focused on enchantment with necro as secondary, so going pale master wasn't the best choice for me, however when I TR him I'm definitely going PM elf, helf or human. Haven't dug into PM yet because I've been focused on druid.

Good luck! To make your SPs go further go archmage enhancements at low level. It's soooo much easier.

[MartinusWyllt]

Based on some posts here and there, I'm certain there was a period when the kind of experience you're describing here was the norm, for wizards aiming for level 7. But, with all the spell changes over time that have taken place, if you haven't tried casting your way to level 7 recently, then consider giving it a go.

As long as you pace your SP use, it's not difficult to cast your way to level 7 anymore.

I will take that challenge on my next wizard, I'll try leaving the carnifex in the bank.

[yawumpus]

I will take that challenge on my next wizard, I'll try leaving the carnifex in the bank.

Carnifex is pointless on strength 10 wizards. The big draw is the huge critical zone, which is wasted without power attack (even if you took it and swapped it out later you don't have the BAB to power it) and strength bonuses. You are far better off with a holy weapon or perhaps a screaming of bleed.

Let the barbarians and fighters rock away with Carnifex

To the OP: masters touch will let you hit reasonably well with any martial melee weapon you are carrying. Note that in practice this means "two handed weapon" as it doesn't work on exotic weapons and for wizards (and others without improved critical) maces are as good as any one hander.

One thing you could try is to wield a mace in your primary hand and the eternal firefinger wand (or eternal acid wand from the waterworks) in your off hand and go to town with both. You might even find an effective casting mace (+spellpower or +DCs) and hit things with that.

Personally, I wouldn't call what a wizard should be doing with a melee weapon "fighting". You should already won the fight (it's held/webbed/stunned) and you are simply mopping up.

[MartinusWyllt]

Carnifex is pointless on strength 10 wizards. The big draw is the huge critical zone, which is wasted without power attack (even if you took it and swapped it out later you don't have the BAB to power it) and strength bonuses. You are far better off with a holy weapon or perhaps a screaming of bleed.

At the levels we're talking about could almost get through dual-wielding muckbanes. antique greataxe, carnifex and a holy maul are all good fun.

[Jaid314]

I will take that challenge on my next wizard, I'll try leaving the carnifex in the bank.

i've done it on a first life (toaster) wizard. it was probably on normal though. if you're one of those people that obsesses over elite streaks, then that will obviously up the challenge.

[Orratti]

If you are soloing a lot charms are a way to conserve SPs and redirect aggro away from you. Many quests you don't need to kill everything and a few charms here and there will keep the crowd occupied while you invis (comes in scrolls even) and run past.

This has been my experience. You don't have a very large sp pool to work with really on any character at this lvl. Using tricks to get by or escape encounters is more efficients sp wise as no one really carries enough to use a spell on every target nor can you handle the aggro from a mass of enemies. Using charm to have them fight amongst themselves as you pass by or using it to gather aggro for a mass damage spell is the way to go. The rest of the time you are going to be meleeing and alot of builds take this into account. You can also use summons, some of them are pretty useful and of course you can get augment summoning and use buffs on them to make them tougher. Summons also seem better programmed than hirelings probably because they work off the same ai program as their corresponding creatures.

[AbyssalMage]

My current spell layout:

1: Niac's Cold Ray, Shield, Jump, Feather Fall
2: Web, Blur, Knock
3: Fireball, Haste

O.K. You don't want Master's Touch because you wanna play like a wizzy? Then your spell selection is all wrong IMHO

Level 1
Jump, Expeditious Retreat, Charm <---- This is your CC, Burning Hands (Acid Spray) <---This is your AoE damage #2

Alternate
Disrupt Undead

Level 2
Blur, Invisibility (But I like Knock for more loot), Scorch <----This is your AoE #1

Alternatives
Melf's Acid Arrow, Web, Knock (read invisibility), Scorching Ray

Level 3
Fireball (Boss Beater), Heroism (Saves)

Alternate spells
Rage, Haste, Acid Blast, Suggestion

Not sure how you are playing but this spell set up will basically work until lvl 7 when you get Firewall and you only need 1 AoE for basic leveling. But using 2x AoE's may be required under yellow/red DA.

Zone in:
Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Heroism, and Blur. Pop mercenary and use any buffs, spells that are beneficial. Invisibility if you are going for xp/min & Stand you Merc.

Run around and gather up NPC's until green DA and then cast AoE #2 and then #1 until all melee are dead (You should be able to combo this all the way through all Normal Difficulty dungeons. You will have to decide if you want to mess with archers. Hard requires Meta's. Elite this doesn't work. You may need to Meta Acid Spray/Burning Hands 6+ depending on the adventure. I tend to run Empower until I am under SP regen on all casters. Merc should keep you up while you are burning things down ~90% of time.

If xp/min run until you get a yellow Dungeon Alert, turn around and spam Fireball/Acid Blast, AoE #2 and #1. Also make sure to "call" your merc so he can heal you while you are eliminating the bad guys.

Charm is for packed rooms or Adventures where doing a zerg approach isn't your best option. The one harbor quest that spams -STR (Can't think of the name) and The Defense (one in Market and the Harbor) ones where you need to conserve mana for a prolonged period of time. It's also a good strategy on Hard (maybe Elite) to charm "pink hat" Warrior Kobalds so they distract the Shaman so you can kill the Shaman easier. I was actually sad when I out grew charm although I find uses for the AoE charm occasionally "Pink Hat" in Tear is very fun if you are solo'ing it.

Clickies/Wands:
Protection From Evil, Bulls Strength, Bear's Endurance, Detect Secret Door's, Shield, Aid or False Life, Expeditious Retreat, Blur, Resist Energy, Invisibility, Feather Fall (Item or Clicky), Water Breathing (Item or Form), Jump

I know I am missing a few but this will free up spell slots for other things at lower levels. Once you get higher, most of your level 1 & 2 spell slots will be strictly utility spells with maybe 1 or 2 swappable damage spell and you will be able to get rid of the clickies.

[Carpone]

Spells I would have memorized at 5th level:

1: Expeditious Retreat, Nightshield, Jump
2: Scorching Ray, Blur, Knock
3: Fireball, Displacement

Blur and Displacement don't stack, but Blur lasts alot longer. Pop Displacement when you're headed into a tough situation.

I can't overstate just how amazing Fireball is. Wizards and Sorcerers dominate pre-epic content with their mass damage and (later on) instakills. When I run a TR group, we complete much slower in level 5-11 content if we don't have an arcane.

You know, I agree and disagree with you. Yeah, running stuff on normal is a SP-conserving option, however, with the BB thing, not a lot of players are going to do this even if they solo content (at least as far as I've seen).

In the same vein, yeah you can get them to group around you or maybe a summon, but sometimes that doesn't always happen consistently. There will always be one or two that break off from the pack and go after you because they spot you. And even with manual targeting, you may not always get that fireball to land on the main group - sometimes it hits the guys coming your way.

Plus, there is a slight problem with gathering them up close. I've noticed that sometimes when when you have a foe targeted, some of the ranged AoEs do not land like they should. The casting animation goes off, and sometimes you'll see a fireball, but it wizzes right by the targeted mob and explodes in the distance. It only seems to happen with stuff like Acid Blast, Fire Ball, and so on. It's like there is a minimum distance requirement in order for it to go off successfully.

Again, agreeing with you on some aspects, but I think your argument targets ideal conditions.

"BB thing"?

Aiming the recticle is part of the skillset that needs to be developed as a caster. Unless I'm single target killing, I almost always have myself targeted to avoid those Fireballs that go off into la-la land. Learning how to jump cast to maximize movement is part of the needs-to-be-developed skillset too.

Also, many archers can be ignored. Not killing mobs you don't need to is part of learning the quests.

[Aashrym]

Spells I would have memorized at 5th level:

1: Expeditious Retreat, Nightshield, Jump
2: Scorching Ray, Blur, Knock
3: Fireball, Displacement

Blur and Displacement don't stack, but Blur lasts alot longer. Pop Displacement when you're headed into a tough situation.

I can't overstate just how amazing Fireball is. Wizards and Sorcerers dominate pre-epic content with their mass damage and (later on) instakills. When I run a TR group, we complete much slower in level 5-11 content if we don't have an arcane.

Use scrolls for several of those and you can open up slots for more SP efficient direct damage spells at that level, and SP management is what the OP is looking for. First level slots that cost 4 SP are all more efficient than fireball at fifth level with exception of magic missile.

[Carpone]

Use scrolls for several of those and you can open up slots for more SP efficient direct damage spells at that level, and SP management is what the OP is looking for. First level slots that cost 4 SP are all more efficient than fireball at fifth level with exception of magic missile.

Fireballing multiple mobs is more mana efficient and faster than single targeting mobs.

Also forgot to mention: Go Archmage instead of Pale Master once you get high enough level. You don't need to choose any of the AM SLAs, most of which are anemic anyway. Just picking up AM prestige will net you several hundred mana.

[Chaos000]

My suggestion add wands into your casting rotation when offensive casting at lower lvls. Wand web is sometimes a good opener. Scrolls for haste. Have a buff rotation in mind 1 min per lvl can add up. Also to add to your dc stat wands are your friends.

Lower lvl mana pots are often cheaper on the AH and fun as hell in a pinch.

[Jaid314]

Fireballing multiple mobs is more mana efficient and faster than single targeting mobs.

burning hands and acid spray (and, for that matter, sonic blast) are not single target, but do cost 4 SP to cast.

often the level 2 AOEs are a bit more (i seem to recall scorch being 6? maybe 8?), but still offer very inexpensive AOE nukes if used right.

[Aashrym]

Fireballing multiple mobs is more mana efficient and faster than single targeting mobs.

Also forgot to mention: Go Archmage instead of Pale Master once you get high enough level. You don't need to choose any of the AM SLAs, most of which are anemic anyway. Just picking up AM prestige will net you several hundred mana.

Acid spray, burning hands, and sonic blast are all AoE. 8 SP for 2 of them is more damage than 1 fireball for less cost on a shorter cool down. If saving SP is the goal those cheap AoE spells are a solution.

Spells that have a duration of 1 minute per level with a minimum duration of 5 minutes are pointless to slot at 5th level because the scrolls are the same duration and not expensive.

[Inouk]

Yep, already starting to feel Wizard's limitations. But the ability to change spells in any tavern is precisely as addicting as Sorcerer's cast speed and spell points.

I'm an elf, but that extra 20 SP from Elven Arcanum I isn't enough.

I'm starting to wonder if I should just ignore my level 3 spells for the moment, unless I party play. Regardless, I've run into a few problems. Right now, I have 374 SP and 23 intelligence.

1. Fireball costs a whopping 15 SP to cast. While this is cheaper than 20 SP, it still quickly drains my SP, even when I gather as many enemies as I can find together.

2. Extended Haste costs freaking 30 SP. That's almost a tenth of my SP bar for a minute's worth of 40% run speed.

It seems like the most obvious answer to me isn't to add more SP, but change how I'm using it. Namely, I need to change my normal spell layout.

My current spell layout:

1: Niac's Cold Ray, Shield, Jump, Feather Fall
2: Web, Blur, Knock
3: Fireball, Haste

As far as other level 3 spells go, I still need to build up my collection -- other than Fireball and Haste, I also have Frost Lance and Lightning Bolt.

I realize that web and fireball are incompatible, which is why I'm thinking of switching at least Fireball out. And Haste is probably not that useful right now, but I have Anger's Step which is 10 minutes of Exp. Retreat, so it's not that imperative that I load up Exp. Retreat as a spell.

I don't want to use Master's Touch. For one thing, I have 8 strength (because I wanted to start with 16 Con). For another... I don't want to use Master's Touch.

Good for you, I don't use master's touch either.

I have a 25 wiz that on first life was a sorc, so I understand where you are coming from.

As a first lifer people seem to forget (you said he's also your highest level of character) how short on money you likely are, so scrolls aren't a great option. Sadly, your level 1 spells are still your primary spells (eventually you'll swap them all for buffs), but fireball/acid burst will serve your well if used right. A few recommendations:

Haste and displacement are generally not worth it at your level (haste almost never, and displacement only for BIG fights).

If you can, run the Phiarlan Carnival chain (level 5) and get Roderic's Wand. This is such an INCREDIBLE aid to a newbie caster you can't even imagine. It let's you summon creatures and regenerates charges at an incredible rate. The spiders are VERY durable and contribute respectable damage, but more importantly they draw agro and group up mobs. If you don't have the pack, you will want it eventually anyway.

Remember that you can add the same spell to your hotbar multiple times, so you can have it on there both with and without meta's. Use the non-meta version most of the time and the meta'd version only as needed.

As other's have mentioned, make sure you group up the bad guys. For mobs that won't go to you, drag the group to them, then use spray/hands and fireball as needed. Magic Missile is nice to keep for echoes of power as needed also.

The eternal wand of Acid Splash from the water works chain is awesome as mentioned, mostly for archers and stray solo mobs you don't want to waste spells on.

An Invulnerability item (robe or buckler) is essential. You probably shouldn't be running elite anyway, and on hard or normal the DR it provides will keep you alive.

At level 7 you'll take these lessons on grouping mobs and use it with wall of fire, which will solve all your spell point problems for ages.

I agree with those that recommend staying away from PM until 12th. The benefits are very small and Zombie form prevents healing from a cleric hireling, slows you, and you'll be fighting a lot of undead at these levels (which the aura will heal). At 12 a PM really shines though.