What is the difference in bards?

[Hobgoblin]

So total bard newb here.

I have a level 21 bard thats a pure spell singer

I know what a warchanter brings to the table -

But what does a virtuoso bring?

The only thing i can think is a better facinate, but less CC?

Is that right?

hob

[Jaid314]

less spell-based CC, yes.

you're forgetting that crazy dance song. which last i heard has a range of "i can select the target". also the heal over time song (yes, it's a small amount, but it can add up to mean quite a bit less healing, especially on a group with good heal amp and damage mitigation).

also regenerating songs.

but yeah, for the most part... right now, i'd stick with spellsinger.

[voodoogroves]

The sheer amount of damage melee can do now makes the difference in enthrall and fascinate less meaningful from what I can observe. Still there, still cool - but not quite the lock-down it was pre-MOTU.

Capering is still amusing.

[Aashrym]

Virts end up with a bit more feat flexibility too.

I go back and play them again from time to time and having a lot of songs is nice but I continue to end up back at spell singers or war chanters.

[Innara]

I've always seen virtuoso more suited for solo/small group play. Their ability to add cc while keeping some melee/healing abilities is vastly more useful solo than in a large group/raid.

You can build a virtuoso to be pure cc, but spell singers really are more suited for spell based cc with their pre songs. You can also build a virtuoso to be full on melee, but then you might as well go warchanter to fully maximize your damage potential.

All in all Virtuoso, imo, is the jack of trade pre of a jack of trade class.

[Jaid314]

Virts end up with a bit more feat flexibility too.

I go back and play them again from time to time and having a lot of songs is nice but I continue to end up back at spell singers or war chanters.

i'd agree with more feat flexibility as compared to a warchanter. i disagree when it comes to spellsinger... the odds of you wanting at least one of those feats anyways, even if only for healing, is very high imo.

[Aashrym]

i'd agree with more feat flexibility as compared to a warchanter. i disagree when it comes to spellsinger... the odds of you wanting at least one of those feats anyways, even if only for healing, is very high imo.

Usually yes, but while a melee spellsinger might want maximize for healing most of the other choices in feat requirement are poor choices with the next best alternative on a melee being mental toughness, which is almost entirely useless on a spellsinger.

Maximize is the only realistic choice in that case and removes the option of another melee feat instead for those spellsingers who could have opted for scroll healing and unmeta'd cures.

I don't think spellsingers are nearly as impacted by feat requirements as a warchanter with weapon focus (power attack would usually be taken anyway) but virts do have that bit more flexibility over spellsingers too with melee builds.

[MnaSidhe]

Q: What is the difference in Bards?
A: One of their legs is both the same!

[goodspeed]

Well one you normally splash, unless you want to sacrifice **** near everything for really nothing. -Warchanter.

One you stay pure, cause the capstone sort of means something for buffing and ccing.-Spell Singer.

And one your just the offshoot ugly cousin that everyone wonders why. -Virtuoso

[jandhaer]

Warchanter - Good for when you have a ton of melees around I guess, which isn't the case in many of the partys I run with. So personally meh.

Spellsinger - Nice for buffing the casters and the mana song is pretty cool. But they won't be CC'ing in epic elites in Drow heavy content without all the spell pen PL lives, and feat investments for spell pen, and lucky rolls on top of that (plus needing to stay pure blecht). Could go healer/buff build I guess... meh

I play a Virt as we generally try to take care of ourselves. I blur displace stoneskin myself sing my songs including a nice H.O.T. (sustaining song), rage and haste and I'm off and running. I pick out the dangerous mobs and dance them with my song of capering and don't worry about spell pen ever. Then mow them down 1 by 1.

Im sure people will say hey any Bard can CC with their songs..... in theory yes, in practice you fascinate all the mobs and half a second later the sorc hits energy burst or the monk does drifting lotus (basically any of the ton of AOE's that toons are packin these days) and everyone's running wild again. So either be able to penetrate that S.R. or get yourself a Virt.

[voodoogroves]

Warchanter - Good for when you have a ton of melees around I guess, which isn't the case in many of the partys I run with. So personally meh.

Spellsinger - Nice for buffing the casters and the mana song is pretty cool. But they won't be CC'ing in epic elites in Drow heavy content without all the spell pen PL lives, and feat investments for spell pen, and lucky rolls on top of that (plus needing to stay pure blecht). Could go healer/buff build I guess... meh

I play a Virt as we generally try to take care of ourselves. I blur displace stoneskin myself sing my songs including a nice H.O.T. (sustaining song), rage and haste and I'm off and running. I pick out the dangerous mobs and dance them with my song of capering and don't worry about spell pen ever. Then mow them down 1 by 1.

Im sure people will say hey any Bard can CC with their songs..... in theory yes, in practice you fascinate all the mobs and half a second later the sorc hits energy burst or the monk does drifting lotus (basically any of the ton of AOE's that toons are packin these days) and everyone's running wild again. So either be able to penetrate that S.R. or get yourself a Virt.

Jan, I've not run a Virt in the new EE, but I used to run with one pre-MOTU (the old just-epic-epics) - how well does Entrall work in keeping mobs held compared to plain old fascinate?

[fco-karatekid]

Well one you normally splash, unless you want to sacrifice **** near everything for really nothing. -Warchanter.

One you stay pure, cause the capstone sort of means something for buffing and ccing.-Spell Singer.

And one your just the offshoot ugly cousin that everyone wonders why. -Virtuoso

Pretty much this^ though I have a HEALTHY respect for the survivability of relatively deep Warchanter splashes (never played pure wc)

[Jaid314]

Spellsinger - Nice for buffing the casters and the mana song is pretty cool. But they won't be CC'ing in epic elites in Drow heavy content without all the spell pen PL lives, and feat investments for spell pen, and lucky rolls on top of that (plus needing to stay pure blecht). Could go healer/buff build I guess... meh

i'm not entirely clear on why you think spellsingers couldn't break spell resistance.

they have 20 caster levels, just like a wizard.
they can take 2 spell pen feats, just like a wizard (though admittedly, they are much more feat starved in general).
they can have the same past life feats as a wizard.
they have a song that gives +1 caster level, which a wizard doesn't have access to.
they have a capstone that grants an extra +2 spell pen, which a wizard doesn't have access to.
they don't have enhancements for +3 spell pen, which a wizard does have access to.

from my perspective, it looks like they come out exactly equal, with the exception of elf wizards, before gear.

and as far as gear, well... it's not exactly hard to get greater spell pen VI. good luck getting greater spell pen IX so easily.

also, they can cast greater shout, which completely bypasses spell resistance in the first place ^^ (though sadly, their DC won't be as awesome to back it up... i really wish turbine would give +2 evocation(sonic) DC in that capstone as well but on the other hand, the most important drow generally won't have that awesome of a fortitude save...)

[Xilth]

they don't have enhancements for +3 spell pen, which a wizard does have access to.

nop, bards have that enhancements, tbh if bard is able to spend feats on spell pen it will have higher spell pen then wizard (with exception for elf wiz, elven arcanum is realy great) with the same past lifes thanks to capstone and song, bard capstone is one of the best in game