Virtu vs warchanter?

[maddmatt70]

Yes, since you asked.

First I'll talk about some of the enhancement choices. After playing multiple bards, I can tell you its best to ditch all bard healing spells right out of the gate and get rid of Song Magic line (unless you go spellsinger or plan to use sonic which is a waste anyway). Wait, wha..? Here's why. Your wand and scroll healing power will match and eventually exceed anything your spells could ever do. You want to max UMD and Wand and scroll mastery to level 4, and carry stacks of Heal scrolls, cure moderate mass scrolls and cure critical wands. Also the important benefit of saving precious SP for needed buffs and perma-hage on the party. The cleric casts, the bard buffs and scroll heals. Learn it, know it.

Next choice, lingering song needs maxed.

Really why? You can always play the songs gasp every 7 minutes or so which is not a big deal. I would say only lingering song 2 or 3 really.

I somewhat agree about the bard song magic, but the reality is it is not a big investment to max or put points into the bard song magic enhancmeents so shrug why not really unless the character is 100% melee and buffs.

If you can get some gear such as the bauble and abbot gloves you can actually make a warchanter bard or virtuoso bards spell points go a long way and might as well use for healing as the mass cure spells can be pretty potent. My mass cure moderate wounds spell is high 200s (with just maximize) a pop now on rabiez my bard which is plenty for epic elite. I never use cure moderate mass wounds scrolls anymore as they do only about 60 a pop. Cure critical wands are a nice trick on a main tank with high healing amp in a raid ex Lord of Blades Raid (another healing device on cooldown), but otherwise shrug.

A bard can heal a party throughout an entire raid or quest and really a spellsinger's only advantage versus a warchanter is a few more spell points so shrug.

[Bolo_Grubb]

well since this toon is gimped, I think I will play around with Virtuoso for a bit. That way I can say that I have some experience with all 3 bard prestige.

This toon has been a warchanter all his life so I have a feel for what warchanter can do even if this toon is gimp at it. I also have a level 23 spellsinger (pure bard) that started has just a haggle bot but not does chest buffing, so I have a feel for that.

Virtuoso is all that is left to try for bard. Once I decide I have a feel for that I will either TR this halfling bard or roll up a new bard.


MMM the bard past life feat is not very impressive.

[marinerfan]

MMM the bard past life feat is not very impressive.

I think this is something everyone can agree on

[maddmatt70]

I think this is something everyone can agree on

It is actually pretty good for a cc bard. You get +1 to your dc and 3 more songs. I trrd my cc bard hangover for it and then ubti wizard for the wizard past life feat and then back to bard...

[changelingamuck]

One important note is that the virtuoso healing song (which isn't so good) over-rides a spellsinger's sp regeneration song which can be really frustrating for the divine whose sp stops regenerating and the spellsinger who keeps having to burn songs which won't work until the hp song timer runs out.

I'm 95% sure that I read in release notes that the bug of the sustaining song overwriting the spellsinger's sp regen song was fixed in a recent update or hotfix. So, that shouldn't be an issue anymore.

Anyways, especially on EE difficulty, I like to have a virtuoso bard in the party since their crowd control is more likely to land than other classes' CC since their DCs are based on the perform skill and are unaffected by spell resistance. And at that difficulty, the group should be communicating enough to recognize how to maintain the fascinates/enthralls.

I don't really think there's a huge difference in the strength of any of the bard prestiges in any case.

[Innara]

It is actually pretty good for a cc bard. You get +1 to your dc and 3 more songs. I trrd my cc bard hangover for it and then ubti wizard for the wizard past life feat and then back to bard...

Only if you take the active feat. I suspect they meant the passive one which gives like +2 saves vs enchant/illusions + 1 song. Personally I think the passive one should give +1 enchant dc which would make acquiring a bard past life much more appealing.

[AzB]

Only if you take the active feat. I suspect they meant the passive one which gives like +2 saves vs enchant/illusions + 1 song. Personally I think the passive one should give +1 enchant dc which would make acquiring a bard past life much more appealing.

I agree. Especially since illusions work the way they do in DDO. In Partycrashers, for example, the illusionary traps still do half damage if you save. That doesn't make sense to me, if you see an illusion for what it is how can it possibly harm you?

The purchased past life feat is better, but hardly worth using a feat slot in an already feat starved class. If you were a non bard enchanter wizard, it might be a cool feat as you would get inspire courage and +1 to your enchanment spells. That makes it a nice replacement for spell focus enchantment as it gives you the same +1 dc to enchantments, but adds the unique ability to inspire courage three times per rest. However, giving up spell focus means not getting greater spell focus.

All in all, the bard past life feats are meh. Not particularly useful for a bard, and not useful at all for much of any other class other than a specific enchant/wiz.

[marinerfan]

Only if you take the active feat. I suspect they meant the passive one which gives like +2 saves vs enchant/illusions + 1 song. Personally I think the passive one should give +1 enchant dc which would make acquiring a bard past life much more appealing.

Yup, this is what I meant. I have the passive feat on a melee heavy character and I don't seem to save on enchant/illusions ever, so +2 seems worthless at this point. maybe when I get geared up a bit more in a few levels I'll actually notice it.

And a question on the active - does the + to enchant stack with spell focus? it kind of sounds like it doesn't, which seems silly to me.

[Aashrym]

I agree. Especially since illusions work the way they do in DDO. In Partycrashers, for example, the illusionary traps still do half damage if you save. That doesn't make sense to me, if you see an illusion for what it is how can it possibly harm you?

The purchased past life feat is better, but hardly worth using a feat slot in an already feat starved class. If you were a non bard enchanter wizard, it might be a cool feat as you would get inspire courage and +1 to your enchanment spells. That makes it a nice replacement for spell focus enchantment as it gives you the same +1 dc to enchantments, but adds the unique ability to inspire courage three times per rest. However, giving up spell focus means not getting greater spell focus.

All in all, the bard past life feats are meh. Not particularly useful for a bard, and not useful at all for much of any other class other than a specific enchant/wiz.

In DnD illusions of the shadow subtype are partially real and still have an effect if saved against. Shadow illusions bring some versatility to wizard, bard, and sorcerer illusionists but DDO has pretty much avoided the entire illusionist play style. In PnP bards feature illusions and charms as the main lines of spells instead of just charms, and have a lot more options with sonic spells and swapping in sorc/wiz spells with the supplements.

As far as the bard past life, the passive feat is very useful on a build without a strong WILL save until equipment can provide immunities. It's great on a barbarian in the harbor. Not worth the grind but useful if a person has it, at low levels. The extra song is a bonus. Overall, the passive feat has some value at least; it's just very small value to most.

The active feat also helps with CHA skills, so has that perk, and provides a stacking bonus to the enchantment DC so has value to bards, sorcerers, and wizards who want that DC. 3 more songs is useful even if dedicated to IC because IC is still a decent ability. A helf bard with bard dilettante and the bard active past life has a lot of songs fast.

It's a bit niche but worth while for those who fit in that niche, and required for completionist regardless.

[barrenwaste]

Personally, I'll take a warchanter over any other bard anyday of the week. A dwarven warchanter, if built and equipped right, can fill any role in the party from healer to tank to cc as needed (excepting only trapper). Like many have said, the key is not to focus on offensive spell casting, it's a waste for such a limited caster. Instead, take only the buffs and use your songs for cc. Top it off with a maxed UMD and wand/scroll enhancement progression and you can heal, res, knock, cc, and buff. I would also suggest multiclassing barbarian and make your warchanter a bardbarian. The enhancements for rage can turn your drunken dwarven crooner into a 4 foot tall bundle of nope in a hurry. As to equipment, what you need to do is to make at least two, and likely three, entirely seperate sets for your beardly bardbarian. One set for your self buffing melee personna, one set for your buffing healbot (which can double as a set for cc, too, if done right), and one set for your silver tongued beguiling devil persona. Why seperate sets? Well, the bardbarian can do all things in limited fashion no matter what he/she wears but it's not truely powerful enough at anything to fill a dedicated role without seperate dedicated sets of equipment.

[Innara]

And a question on the active - does the + to enchant stack with spell focus? it kind of sounds like it doesn't, which seems silly to me.

Yes the bard past life active feat will stack with everything, including sf: enchant.

[Qezuzu]

I have a Virtuoso bard and she is just fun to play. She's melee specced, and with Epic Antique Greataxe and the Dreadnought ED, she has some pretty awesome DPS; the x6 crits are fun too.

She also has stunning blow and trip, and combined with the song CC and OID, she's a force of nature.

[Bolo_Grubb]

so far I am having a lot of fun as a virtuoso