Pay to win much?

[Gunga]

You can earn over 2 million xp in an afternoon? Like 500k xp/hour?

During the 31% xp week I got over 2M XP in a day. True story.

[Aurora1979]

<sigh>
I happen to agree*. However, it seems that Chai will never agree to this point. Rather than further beating this dead horse, I stipulated to that definition** in my statement to point out the inconsistencies in his arguments.


*If utilizing the strict definition of "win".

**as I did here with your definition of "win"

I apologise to you. My response is becoming a bit automated, I assumed we were about to g round the same dIscussion again.

I'm getting a bit auto response to the "pay to win" statement

I need to bow out of the conversation. Now I think, I have little new to add if I'm being compleley honest.

[Beethoven]

You can earn over 2 million xp in an afternoon? Like 500k xp/hour?

Yes, I made an exaggerated statement (something you will find not at all uncommon on the internets) to stress my point that reaching level 16 is hardly something most people would call an achievement and generally can be done in relative short a time. Personally I find it so easy that I can even manage watch TV and/or hold a conversation with my wife the same time. Also, there are people (not me) who have leveled a multi-TR over a single weekend.

I am not at all bothered by hearing how someone spent fifty bucks on something that can be achieved relative easily by simply doing it yourself. It affects me as little as if someone would tell me my neighbor hired plumber to unclog his kitchen sink while I fixed mine myself. He too gets something for money I worked for (a working sink). I don't see the neighbor as winner here, in the contrary I got the same result without having to spend money on it and could proof the same time that I am not completely useless with a mechanical tool. There, better?

The proof is already in the pudding as bug fixes dont get ramped up, as the new priority becomes implementing more p2w as the new product, taking focus off fixing the game, the old product.

Your "proof" relies on that store items and fixing bugs are of similar scope and done by the same people. It would be /extremely/ odd if that would be true. It's SP pots, raid timer bypass, tomes and now the XP stone you quote most. We already had Tomes and SP pots in-game before the store, Turbine could already reset raid timers for individual toons and they had tools to award XP directly. They did not need to develop any of these for the store, so how could that have taken up significant amounts of development time?

That's actually the appeal of store items for companies: they require virtually no development time, little to no maintenance and can create a steady stream of additional revenue. All it takes from the development side really is slapping some function on an object so it triggers an already existing code. The most work is probably done by graphic designers to make the object look pretty. Graphic designers don't fix bugs.

The fact that the code for pretty much every object we have in the store existed (in some shape or form) in-game already long before, and neither graphic designers or marketing (who likely organize the store) generally don't fix software bugs is actually proof of how your theory is flawed.

and more I'm sure I'm not aware of. That covers death, loot, stats, sp loss, xp, think healing is probably covered as well. Really have they missed anything? You can already "cheat" you way around practically everything.

It sounds bad, but lets go over the list again:

* Resurection and healing: None of this costs a lot for a single use, but keep relying on the store and you will eventually rack up an expense. Meanwhile I can rely on a (virtually) free hireling, get the same (and better) result and didn't spend a dime. I wouldn't really call that a win for you.

* Slayer pots and loot pots: you'd have a point if they'd be worth something. You can chug slayer pots and run around kill stuff all you want, I use "invis and run" to get to the quest and at the end of the day I likely will end up with more XP and again did not spend a cent. Loot pots don't affect named items and level 25 is the highest level of gear we have. I seen decent ML 25 stuff (including tomes) drop just fine without them. So, you spent money but don't really have anything to show for it I don't have. What you win again by spending money here?

* Raid Timer bypass: there was the dude who bought a bunch and spent the whole day farming ToD for his ring. Meanwhile, guildie of mine spent a day farming high level chests and ended up pulling two +4 upgrades and one +5 upgrade. So, dude spent what? USD 15 to USD 20 and got a ToD ring. Guildie did not spend a cent and ended up with two +4 and one +5 tome. I let you be the judge who "won"?

You could make the argument that you also could buy +4 tomes in the store for a while (and likely will again in the future). So they now both got tomes, dude spent 60-70 bucks and got a ToD ring in addition while guildie still did not spend a cent and got a +5 tome instead. 60-70 spend plus a ToD ring on one side vs no money spent and a +5 tome, still don't see a clear (or extreme) win for dude, do you?

Of all things on your list it's likely SP pots which qualify as p2w the most. They don't guarantee a win (in cases were a group is in well over their head, no amount of SP will fix it - latest death penalties will eventually catch up with them), but in any case were it is a close-ish call and a group could win by attrition and simply holding out long enough SP pots can make the difference between win or loose.

[Vilhelm_der_Toller]

I apologise to you. My response is becoming a bit automated, I assumed we were about to g round the same dIscussion again.

I'm getting a bit auto response to the "pay to win" statement

I need to bow out of the conversation. Now I think, I have little new to add if I'm being compleley honest.

No problem and no offense taken. Easy to happen on a thread like this.

[jandhaer]

Hard Fact:

Life is Pay 2 Win, why should DDO be any different ?

[Beethoven]

Its more like, you and your friend want to join EE pug, but he is constantly kicked or asked to leave or group reforms without him, because he can't pull his weight in EE without EDs.

You are technically correct that ED's are the ultimate p2w in DDO, but that's hardly a new situation. Earlier this year a toon with only lootgen gear (no epics, no greensteel, no ToD set) would have likely also had a hard time pulling his weight in (old style) epics and have a similar chance of getting kicked from groups.

The only way to change that was by buying specific adventure packs to acquire the gear (Vale for Greensteel, VoN for eSoS, Red Fens for Claw set, etc.). Today you could take a barbarian, slap some random lootgen gear on him (especially with the new lootgen there is actually decent stuff out there again), purchase Fotw, grind XP to max it out and the toon is going to pull his weight just fine even in EE.

So, buying multiple adventure packs and grinding them for gear versus purchasing a decent destiny and grinding any content for epic XP ... it's not really more p2w, just different. Now, granted, if you are concerned with creating the maximum, best possible, then yes - it's more: it'd require buying all Destinies for Fate Points and Twists, and several packs (as not all the best loot comes only from one or two places anymore). Then again, there are very few companies that will offer you their best product/service without people ever having to pay them a cent.

[Zammied]

Hard Fact:

Life is Pay 2 Win, why should DDO be any different ?

Because DDO is not life?

[Vilhelm_der_Toller]

Because DDO is not life?

Sadly, not true in all cases.

[Thrudh]

If you want fair, then everyone should only be allowed to play 1 hour a day.

Oh, you don't want fair?

Then at least have the courtesy not to whine when I pay to keep the lights on so you can keep playing 10 hours a day for free.

[Zammied]

If you want fair, then everyone should only be allowed to play 1 hour a day.

Oh, you don't want fair?

Then at least have the courtesy not to whine when I pay to keep the lights on so you can keep playing 10 hours a day for free.

Whoah there... many of us that oppose the p2w garbage do pay for ViP. You arent the only one paying

[danzig138]

This kind of thing diminishes my enjoyment of the game

That's on you and absolutely no one else.

[pHo3nix]

Can you respond with no ad hominem? Im guessing no.

The "store saved the game" claim is a myth. Most of the lack of content during 2008 was due to the Atari/Turbine lawsuit that disallowed Turbine from marketing the product, because Atari was supposed to be doing that. The minute that was settled, Turbine launched their marketing campaign ads and released the f2p model of the game at the same time.

If the store saved the game, how come they had to resort to p2w then. Because the store didnt save the game. Please note that f2p/premium/DDO store is not the same entity as p2w. I fully support f2p/premium/DDO store, but I do not support unlimited p2w.

And no, what I am saying is a pretty standard principle of marketing: When the old cow stops producing, the money made from the production from the new cow doesnt go to feeding the old cow. It goes to feeding the new cow. The old cow gets taken out to pasture, or perhaps shes in the burgers already.

The proof is already in the pudding as bug fixes dont get ramped up, as the new priority becomes implementing more p2w as the new product, taking focus off fixing the game, the old product. If too many people complain about a specific thing in the game that needs fixing, all they are doing is providing marketing feedback on what the next pay to cheat code will be sold out of the store. Theres your "fixes", implemented as pay to circumvent.

^This.

If you guys are so blind that you can't see it, then i'll give you another easy example :P Though i bet you can see it but just don't want to admit it

Why is the TR2+ xp requirement that high?

They perfectly know that 4.378.500 xp (or whatever it is) are way too much. People started complaining so they added better xp potions(ddo store), tome of learning (ddo store), bravery bonus (this is not in the ddo store, it's just there to give people an incentive to tr, to sell more xp pots/tomes/hearts of wood) and lately the stone of experience.

So instead of taking the easy route ( just tone down the xp requirements or increase the xp in quests) they just added things in the ddo store.

@All those arguing about play time: given 2 people that are equally skilled and fast, they will both have the same results in X hours, it doesn't make any difference if one play X hours/day and the other X hour/week, their time spent in game is rewarded the same. I cannot play more than 14 hours/week usually, i do not pretend to have the same results as someone that play 40 hours/week (unless of course they are completely noobs and i'm really amazing ).

I'm not arguing cause i feel bad or unhappy, i couldn't care less in what ways you spend your money; i'm just arguing cause i think that p2w it's unfair and does nothing good for the game, except making feel special some people

[Captain_Wizbang]

Because you have started yet another P2W thread, you DO NOT get a decorated cowbell. But it does warrant my new holiday version.
"the new Ottos' box ruined my completionist experience"

[Thrudh]

Why is the TR2+ xp requirement that high?

They perfectly know that 4.378.500 xp (or whatever it is) are way too much. People started complaining so they added better xp potions(ddo store), tome of learning (ddo store), bravery bonus (this is not in the ddo store, it's just there to give people an incentive to tr, to sell more xp pots/tomes/hearts of wood) and lately the stone of experience.

So instead of taking the easy route ( just tone down the xp requirements or increase the xp in quests) they just added things in the ddo store.

Heh, the easy route... All these threads tell me is that most of the people who play this game have no clue how to run a business. Of course, they made XP requirements for 2+ TR very high... so it wouldn't easy to get completionist super fast (ALL MMOs used to require time sinks to keep SUBSCRIBERS paying for months and months.)...

But then when the f2p model came out, a pure time-sink doesn't make them money... So they came up with xp pots... A genius idea... You don't have to buy them to succeed, but many do anyway.

Turbine is doing everything right, business-wise... Even if the game folds next year (which it won't), they've already made a ton of money.... Probably more than they would have made with a more incremental approach to the store, even if that made the game last 10 more years... As long as new content keeps coming, it's pretty safe to say that Turbine is still profitable.

[CaptainPurge]

Otto's Irresistible Holiday Box

A jam-packed bundle that contains the following:

- 1 Stone of Experience: Allows level 8 or higher characters to immediately level up to level 16! To use this item, your character must be level 8 to 15. This item is tradable, but is not auctionable or sellable to vendors.


I worked hard to get my completionist. I've been playing a while more than is good for me, and I've sadly never pulled a +4 tome.

This kind of thing diminishes my enjoyment of the game and will make me buy less Turbine Points, not more.

But perhaps I am in the minority. I understand there is a newly hired chief of 'Pay to win', so I suppose we will be seeing more of this.

If someone besides you buys a stone of XP, how does that negatively affect your gaming experience? This is not a game where you compete vs other players to race ahead to level 20. I have a completionist and I couldn't care less about the XP stone, if my entire server wanted to use stones, who cares? It's not my TP they're spending. More power to them.

[Sonos]

^This.

If you guys are so blind that you can't see it, then i'll give you another easy example :P Though i bet you can see it but just don't want to admit it

Why is the TR2+ xp requirement that high?

They perfectly know that 4.378.500 xp (or whatever it is) are way too much. People started complaining so they added better xp potions(ddo store), tome of learning (ddo store), bravery bonus (this is not in the ddo store, it's just there to give people an incentive to tr, to sell more xp pots/tomes/hearts of wood) and lately the stone of experience.

So instead of taking the easy route ( just tone down the xp requirements or increase the xp in quests) they just added things in the ddo store.

@All those arguing about play time: given 2 people that are equally skilled and fast, they will both have the same results in X hours, it doesn't make any difference if one play X hours/day and the other X hour/week, their time spent in game is rewarded the same. I cannot play more than 14 hours/week usually, i do not pretend to have the same results as someone that play 40 hours/week (unless of course they are completely noobs and i'm really amazing ).

I'm not arguing cause i feel bad or unhappy, i couldn't care less in what ways you spend your money; i'm just arguing cause i think that p2w it's unfair and does nothing good for the game, except making feel special some people

I get it now, you and Chai don't want "pay2win", you want Turbine to make it easier for you to level a third lifer. Now I get it. Sheesh why didn't I think of that b4.

Dear Turbine,

I don't want to buy xp tomes and xp pots. I want my 3rd life and on to be easier and more importantly... FREE.

Thank you for understanding, may your children be blessed with full scholarships. Small price to pay for my enjoyment.

Sincerely
Mr. GimmeFreeAndEasy

[noinfo]

^This.

If you guys are so blind that you can't see it, then i'll give you another easy example :P Though i bet you can see it but just don't want to admit it

Why is the TR2+ xp requirement that high?

They perfectly know that 4.378.500 xp (or whatever it is) are way too much. People started complaining so they added better xp potions(ddo store), tome of learning (ddo store), bravery bonus (this is not in the ddo store, it's just there to give people an incentive to tr, to sell more xp pots/tomes/hearts of wood) and lately the stone of experience.

It is that high because they wanted to encourage grinding 1-20 instead of an end game making use of existing content. It never made it impossible and I know many who used to do it before hand.

[Drekisen]

Actually I think the store saved the game in part...people who look around to play different MMO's basically want many of the same features just new scenery......DDO had new scenery and unique playstyle before F2P and the store...but that was about it....which was not enough.

[pHo3nix]

It is that high because they wanted to encourage grinding 1-20 instead of an end game making use of existing content. It never made it impossible and I know many who used to do it before hand.

I did it before BB and tome too, without xp pots, i find levelling quite fun, that's why i do not stay at cap much. I'm not saying it's impossible or hard, just saying that it was quite grindy

@Thrudh: that's why they will basically sell past lives in the store (through xp stones) before christmas 2013, right? You shouldn't get completionist super fast after all

They did the same thing with raid timer bypasses. Something cannot be good and bad at the same time: if raid timers are good for the game, then raid timer bypasses are bad, if raid timer bypasses are good then raid timers are bad; in both cases raid timers bypasses shouldn't be in the game.

Oh, i might not have a clue on how to run a business, but forgive me if i'm not willing to give money to someone that is clearly considering me an idiot Most of these "great" marketing decisions just work cause seems that most people are not that smart.

@Sonos: i might draw some easy to understand pictures for you, but i'm really bad at drawing

I'm more than willing to pay for a nice product, i just don't want to spend money on things that are clearly designed just to suck money without any other reason.

Instead of xp potions for example, make Adventure packs cost 3, 4 or even 5 x what they are worth now, make them better xp and then remove xp pots and tomes from the game.

Really guys, it's not that hard to get, some people (myself included) are more than ok with pay2play, we just don't want to pay2win, it has nothing to do with how many money we spend.

[loki_3369]

Otto's Irresistible Holiday Box

A jam-packed bundle that contains the following:

- 1 Stone of Experience: Allows level 8 or higher characters to immediately level up to level 16! To use this item, your character must be level 8 to 15. This item is tradable, but is not auctionable or sellable to vendors.


I worked hard to get my completionist. I've been playing a while more than is good for me, and I've sadly never pulled a +4 tome.

This kind of thing diminishes my enjoyment of the game and will make me buy less Turbine Points, not more.

But perhaps I am in the minority. I understand there is a newly hired chief of 'Pay to win', so I suppose we will be seeing more of this.

I like that they added a new form of currency... Which you can purchase with real money. So, they aren't *really* selling plat, right? >_>

Also, really digging that if you misclick "sell", "buyout", "bid", etc. You get a prompt message asking if you'd like to add more Astral Shards. GG Turbine, you've done it again.