Pay to win much?

[noinfo]

It ABSOLUTELY makes a difference. The entire argument that "what someone else does doesnt impact me" is a strawman argument. My stance was never about what other people do, it was about the increasing impact increasing levels of p2w has on a game. To say it has no impact is laughable, because all one needs to do to understand this impact is to read the 2 year old threads on this very topic, then read the current threads on the topic.

The increasing impact is 0 except for it funding the game. The only thing laughable is people coming on complaining Doom and Gloom over something that has 0 impact on them except to fund the game. Read the 2 year old threads and guess what? Still 0 impact, read current threads and guess what? 0 impact.

You offer no new arguements or facts to back them up. You say xyz would never be offered in store, yet who cares when those items have been added to common loot in game anyway and with ED's have been depreciated anyway as you would expect after the expansion.

Lets do a comparisson:
Person A buys Von pack runs it and eventually gets an eSOS
Person B does not but instead gets a leveling stone

When they are back into same content who has the PTW advantage?

[Thrudh]

And your examples demonstrate what? In a game, once you bought it, things are supposed to be fair..you can pay what you want in cosmetics and convenience, but you shouldn't be able to circumvent game rules or obtain unfair advantages.

If you got a porsche and i got a 500 there's nothing wrong at all, unless we are supposed to make a fair race, in which case we should both have the same car

If it's supposed to be fair, then you can only play the same number of hours I play...

Pretty unfair that you get to keep shooting baskets even when I'm not on court, or you get 10x as many rolls when you play Yahtzee because you have more time on your hands.

[Djeserit]

Except the current uproar is caused by a Christmas offer were you can level a toon from 8 to 16 for 50 bucks. You really believe reaching level 16 is an achievement you seriously deluded yourself. So, as far as impact goes: someone spending 50 bucks on something I can faceroll on a Sunday afternoon while watching a couple movies the same time, no, I cannot see how this could impact me in any sense or fashion.
.

You can earn over 2 million xp in an afternoon? Like 500k xp/hour?

[Orratti]

add whatever comes from now on to your list. Lets see what the list already contains

sp pots
xp pots
slayer pots
res cakes
timer bypasses
loot increase items
tomes
and more I'm sure I'm not aware of. That covers death, loot, stats, sp loss, xp, think healing is probably covered as well. Really have they missed anything? You can already "cheat" you way around practically everything. The only thing I see missing is melee damage boosts and an option to instakill bosses. (they're probably there, I just don't know about them) Seriously it's getting a bit late to get indignant and self righteous but I don't want to rain on your parade. Your struggling is futile and your points are already invalid.

[Thrudh]

The common myth that p2cheat money will be allocated to anything else other than implementing more p2cheat is just that, a myth, as evidenced by more issues cropping up than are fixed.

Just stop Chai... How much new content did we have before the store?? How much new content have we had since the store? Are you seriously saying that NONE of the money is allocated to creating new content and new systems?

Am I really going to have to put you on ignore? You're in space-cadet land now.

[Chai]

Just stop Chai... How much new content did we have before the store?? How much new content have we had since the store? Are you seriously saying that NONE of the money is allocated to creating new content and new systems?

Am I really going to have to put you on ignore? You're in space-cadet land now.

Can you respond with no ad hominem? Im guessing no.

The "store saved the game" claim is a myth. Most of the lack of content during 2008 was due to the Atari/Turbine lawsuit that disallowed Turbine from marketing the product, because Atari was supposed to be doing that. The minute that was settled, Turbine launched their marketing campaign ads and released the f2p model of the game at the same time.

If the store saved the game, how come they had to resort to p2w then. Because the store didnt save the game. Please note that f2p/premium/DDO store is not the same entity as p2w. I fully support f2p/premium/DDO store, but I do not support unlimited p2w.

And no, what I am saying is a pretty standard principle of marketing: When the old cow stops producing, the money made from the production from the new cow doesnt go to feeding the old cow. It goes to feeding the new cow. The old cow gets taken out to pasture, or perhaps shes in the burgers already.

The proof is already in the pudding as bug fixes dont get ramped up, as the new priority becomes implementing more p2w as the new product, taking focus off fixing the game, the old product. If too many people complain about a specific thing in the game that needs fixing, all they are doing is providing marketing feedback on what the next pay to cheat code will be sold out of the store. Theres your "fixes", implemented as pay to circumvent.

[Chai]

add whatever comes from now on to your list. Lets see what the list already contains

sp pots
xp pots
slayer pots
res cakes
timer bypasses
loot increase items
tomes
and more I'm sure I'm not aware of. That covers death, loot, stats, sp loss, xp, think healing is probably covered as well. Really have they missed anything? You can already "cheat" you way around practically everything. The only thing I see missing is melee damage boosts and an option to instakill bosses. (they're probably there, I just don't know about them) Seriously it's getting a bit late to get indignant and self righteous but I don't want to rain on your parade. Your struggling is futile and your points are already invalid.

Its a bit late? Been pointing out how the p2w slippery slope was going to get worse for ~2.5 years now. As youve pointed out, one can pretty much pay to circumvent most negative circumstances at this point.

[Chai]

The increasing impact is 0 except for it funding the game.

Ima save this one right here, and we will have a nice little chat about that when that impact is truely seen and you do a complete 180 on the issue.

You see, many of the people whose posts now echo my posts on this issue were telling me it wasnt a big deal in the past. The only real difference in the way I viewed the issue -vs- the way they viewed the issue is that where they draw the line for "too much" is different than where I draw the line for "too much" in relation to how much p2w we think. The fact is that you DO have an opinion on what is "too much" and Turbine will likely cross that line at some point. When it happens, ima be right there grinning back at ya, linking these threads where you were telling us this all has zero impact. I canalready taste the popcorn.

[Zammied]

P2W or Pay To Cheat... In my opinion its gone way to far. I also don't believe any of this money is going to fix any bugs, so basically we are just lining their pockets. And not only this but it will only progress into un-disputable P2W where we are buying 1-20 and the same people are justifying it with (blah blah blah supporting bug fixes and oh i mean, ive already leveled 1-20 before, and what exactly do I win) sigh.


Some people will say its just a game, and it is, but you can devalue anything by saying that. Some of us, rightfully or wrongly dont like to have our completionists devalued and such.

This is coming from a Vet, and old school player.

[Buddrow]

The proof is already in the pudding as bug fixes dont get ramped up, as the new priority becomes implementing more p2w as the new product, taking focus off fixing the game, the old product. If too many people complain about a specific thing in the game that needs fixing, all they are doing is providing marketing feedback on what the next pay to cheat code will be sold out of the store. Theres your "fixes", implemented as pay to circumvent.

^This has been the experience with the last few patches. More store Shiny and click-able options to open the store, and no real bug fix that didn't cause two more.

As much as it pains me to agree with Chai, I do. It's looking less and less like the game I fell in love with, and more and more like a steaming pile of marketing.

[noinfo]

Can you respond with no ad hominem? Im guessing no.

The "store saved the game" claim is a myth. Most of the lack of content during 2008 was due to the Atari/Turbine lawsuit that disallowed Turbine from marketing the product, because Atari was supposed to be doing that. The minute that was settled, Turbine launched their marketing campaign ads and released the f2p model of the game at the same time.

If the store saved the game, how come they had to resort to p2w then. Because the store didnt save the game. Please note that f2p/premium/DDO store is not the same entity as p2w. I fully support f2p/premium/DDO store, but I do not support unlimited p2w.

And no, what I am saying is a pretty standard principle of marketing: When the old cow stops producing, the money made from the production from the new cow doesnt go to feeding the old cow. It goes to feeding the new cow. The old cow gets taken out to pasture, or perhaps shes in the burgers already.

The proof is already in the pudding as bug fixes dont get ramped up, as the new priority becomes implementing more p2w as the new product, taking focus off fixing the game, the old product. If too many people complain about a specific thing in the game that needs fixing, all they are doing is providing marketing feedback on what the next pay to cheat code will be sold out of the store. Theres your "fixes", implemented as pay to circumvent.

Of course it saved the game, you serously don't think that an aged failing game could be rescued by a marketing campaign alone? Micro transaction scheme brought it back, that means the store.

As for more bugs in the game, that is a sign of more development not less. We had less bugs back then BECAUSE nothing new was being added.

[noinfo]

Ima save this one right here, and we will have a nice little chat about that when that impact is truely seen and you do a complete 180 on the issue.

You see, many of the people whose posts now echo my posts on this issue were telling me it wasnt a big deal in the past. The only real difference in the way I viewed the issue -vs- the way they viewed the issue is that where they draw the line for "too much" is different than where I draw the line for "too much" in relation to how much p2w we think. The fact is that you DO have an opinion on what is "too much" and Turbine will likely cross that line at some point. When it happens, ima be right there grinning back at ya, linking these threads where you were telling us this all has zero impact. I canalready taste the popcorn.

And you sidestep it again. Maybe this is where turbine got the idea for dodge from though I doubt yours does not seemed to be capped at 25%

So give me the names of these people who have changed their minds and quote them and lets start there, feel free to save mine as I look forward to you being able to back up a statement with an actual quote.

[Vellrad]

I suppose this analogy MIGHT work... hmm lemme see. Ok, I buy EDs and my guildie(and this part is real) doesn't buy EDs. We go into the PVP pit and I decimate him with muh fandagled "legal" cheats as you say.

Ah but unfortunately, in this case, we give two flying squirrels about PVP and therefore are never ever in direct competition. Yup we play this style of play called PvE.

Its more like, you and your friend want to join EE pug, but he is constantly kicked or asked to leave or group reforms without him, because he can't pull his weight in EE without EDs. Sure, it don't affects you if you're playing EN, and, to lesser degree, EH, but person with EDs is giving as much contribution as 2 or 3 players without.

[tiipeJii]

I do not understand how anything that you can only use on yourself would make this game p2w (with the possible exception of raid timer bypass).

And actually the stone is less xp than a 30% pot, since from end game point of view your total xp goal is now 7/17 mil. And besides xp is not dependent on luck so it is really should not affect anyone else. I could understand if someone was upset about enabling trading of stones or raid timer bypasses for in-game stuff. That to me is a bigger shortcut to in-game power than being able to level from 8 to 16. Especially since a bigger portion of items that matter in end game are not BtC on acquire anymore.

I personally do not care if a game is p2w as long as can only pay for stuff that is obtainable through playing the game (ie. xp or loot that also drops in the game). This way you only exchange money for real life time. And time is the only really valuable commodity, everything else can be bought with money (in real life).

[psykopeta]

Can you respond with no ad hominem? Im guessing no.

The "store saved the game" claim is a myth. Most of the lack of content during 2008 was due to the Atari/Turbine lawsuit that disallowed Turbine from marketing the product, because Atari was supposed to be doing that. The minute that was settled, Turbine launched their marketing campaign ads and released the f2p model of the game at the same time.

If the store saved the game, how come they had to resort to p2w then. Because the store didnt save the game. Please note that f2p/premium/DDO store is not the same entity as p2w. I fully support f2p/premium/DDO store, but I do not support unlimited p2w.

And no, what I am saying is a pretty standard principle of marketing: When the old cow stops producing, the money made from the production from the new cow doesnt go to feeding the old cow. It goes to feeding the new cow. The old cow gets taken out to pasture, or perhaps shes in the burgers already.

The proof is already in the pudding as bug fixes dont get ramped up, as the new priority becomes implementing more p2w as the new product, taking focus off fixing the game, the old product. If too many people complain about a specific thing in the game that needs fixing, all they are doing is providing marketing feedback on what the next pay to cheat code will be sold out of the store. Theres your "fixes", implemented as pay to circumvent.

p2w will ever go in the same direction, to the boss' pocket

save the game? don't? well, are we talking of reinversion? every company does it, in more or less amount, but ppl usually wants to keep wining money

in fact they want to win more money, so everything is valid for them if money goes to their pocket

the only no p2w things are companion

do you really think a game could survive only selling companions?

seems hard to believe, in fact companions are always for the same: support the game w/o taking advantages

or just liking animals, everything is possible XD

vip its a p2w, gives you access to all packs(and gear) some extra tp/month and allows you to open elite


should vip get more perks? yes, everything is valid to win more money, if they win money ddo will stay alive

dying slowly? it's not like ddo is a massive mmorpg, in facta population isn't that big so the day it will disappear probably nobody will notice it, simply 1 day the client will stop working

i think in a f2p game there must be p2w stuff, always have been this way and have worked

would ppl support a game w/o getting benefits?just donations like blogs, etc... some would, others not, so the game would have been less developed in some way

f2p have p2w stuff, the more p2w, the more time the game survives

so just assume it, p2w is needed and almost everything is p2w

don't like the word? well, it's a reality, i p2w one time, not more


it's because that was a p2l? well, not really, if im thinking in the day ddo will disappear, its not only p2l, all the time i've spent (and that will spend) is wasted, but that thoughts aren't useful, simply the day i bought motu was a clear p2w, just think of packs(and gear) and the tomes

don't understand why ppl lie themselves saying it's not p2w, trying to argue like philosophical-mathematical-logical machines, or even giving other ethimologic definitions but... $ > time in f2p games so most of store's stuff it's p2w

is p2w in ddo a p2l? if you buy the first 2-3 days it is, cause they release things like they do, after that time it's as p2w as having the vale pack to craft gs gear

[Vilhelm_der_Toller]

Can you respond with no ad hominem? Im guessing no.

The "store saved the game" claim is a myth. Most of the lack of content during 2008 was due to the Atari/Turbine lawsuit that disallowed Turbine from marketing the product, because Atari was supposed to be doing that. The minute that was settled, Turbine launched their marketing campaign ads and released the f2p model of the game at the same time.

If the store saved the game, how come they had to resort to p2w then. Because the store didnt save the game. Please note that f2p/premium/DDO store is not the same entity as p2w. I fully support f2p/premium/DDO store, but I do not support unlimited p2w.

And no, what I am saying is a pretty standard principle of marketing: When the old cow stops producing, the money made from the production from the new cow doesnt go to feeding the old cow. It goes to feeding the new cow. The old cow gets taken out to pasture, or perhaps shes in the burgers already.

The proof is already in the pudding as bug fixes dont get ramped up, as the new priority becomes implementing more p2w as the new product, taking focus off fixing the game, the old product. If too many people complain about a specific thing in the game that needs fixing, all they are doing is providing marketing feedback on what the next pay to cheat code will be sold out of the store. Theres your "fixes", implemented as pay to circumvent.

The Pay to Win* model was in place from day one of DDO going to a Free to Play model. The only example needed is the Sigils of Leveling. For those unfamiliar, characters were limited to level 4 without a copper sigil. You had two method of acquiring one: find it through questing (spending time) or buying them in the store (ie: pay to "win"). Additional sigils were needed every 4 levels. These were gradually phased out. Nothing introduced to the store since then has provided this clear of an advantage regardless of cost. This would indicated a fairly strong shift away from the Pay to Win model.




*Using your definition (originating in 1920) of spending money to gain an advantage.

[Aurora1979]

You had two method of acquiring one: find it through questing (spending time) or buying them in the store (ie: pay to "Save time").

Fixed that for you.

"pay to save time" rather then "pay to win" as it has already been established that you don't win in ddo.

[Vilhelm_der_Toller]

Obscured the point of that for you.

"pay to save time" rather then "pay to win" as it has already been established that you don't win in ddo.

Don't "fix" my statements.

I was referring to Chai's often repeated definition (established, according to him, in 1920) that the phrase "pay to win" actually means paying for an in game advantage.

[Aurora1979]

Don't "fix" my statements.

I was referring to Chai's often repeated definition (established, according to him, in 1920) that the phrase "pay to win" actually means paying for an in game advantage.

I know what you were quoting, and it is wrong. THERE IS NO WIN! therefore there is no PAY TO WIN!

there is only pay to save time

[Vilhelm_der_Toller]

I know what you were quoting, and it is wrong. THERE IS NO WIN! therefore there is no PAY TO WIN!

there is only pay to save time

<sigh>
I happen to agree*. However, it seems that Chai will never agree to this point. Rather than further beating this dead horse, I stipulated to that definition** in my statement to point out the inconsistencies in his arguments.


*If utilizing the strict definition of "win".

**as I did here with your definition of "win"