epic nuking

[Hathorian]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed or not, but, basically Epic caster levels are pretty much meaningless when it comes to nuking since pretty much all nuking spells are capped at level 20 (or much lower) with very few notable exceptions (disintegrate? and polar ray). So, Sorcs are basically screwed when it comes to casting nukes for high end content as the damage dice aren't keeping up with newer content (no, ED powers are not casting nukes. 1. anyone can use them, 2. they are special abilities and not spells, 3. very long cool downs for the most part). This is a very painful loss of ground when it comes to DPS for high level epics (ever try nuking a group of 10k mobs? not very fun and massively spell point intensive) and I assume it is only going to get worse as level caps increase going forward. Something has to be done...either Max Caster levels have to increase for existing spells or we need new nuking spells.

[goodspeed]

idk I never really have a problem. Especially if you hold monster mass and then nuke. You can't whip a nuke and clear the room anymore but I find my spells still do a good chunk of hp.

Though i'm a water savant and I use polar ray alot. So other savants like air might be kinda boned.

But I work that burst epic spell from draconic right in. It's not spammable but it's up enough to be a good area clearer, as well as the dragon breath.

I mean I'm definitively still doing a great deal more dmg then a full ****** barbarian. Multi or single target with the CC to match.

[Purkilius]

Draconic Incarnation sla's are based on character level instead of caster level, that is the reason why I took the 25th level on my sorc.

[Hathorian]

Sounds like you guys are agreeing with me in your posts that nuking spells are becoming less and less relevant (i.e. I rely on draconic SLAs, polar ray is ok but others not so much, having to rely on the monster being held now, etc). They are still ok in easier content, but what about the new 24/5 quest chain on epic elite? Haven't tried it yet, but unless you critical, I'm guessing that most AOE nukes are not going to be impactful but are just going to get you unwanted aggro. Melees are getting far more powerful, and yet nuking spells are not (marginal increases to spell power only, not max caster level, no new spells).

What about when the level cap is increased to lvl 30? 35? Nukes will be pretty much useless at that point...?

[Elxir]

My guess is, by that point Turbine will have added more tiers to Prestige Enhancements either allowing caster level caps to go up some, or make the current spells more efficient. In any case I have not been into any EE content yet, so I cannot say one way or another about that, but I have not had too much trouble on EH with the groups I've run with. No solo experience in EH so far, but EN is pretty fun usually and not too bad if you rely on SLAs more than the top-end spells. It just takes a while longer to kill some groups.

Note: This is from the perspective of an Air Savant with mediocre gear at levels 20-24, still not 25 yet and have only maxed DI, working on Magister now.

[Purkilius]

Sounds like you guys are agreeing with me in your posts that nuking spells are becoming less and less relevant (i.e. I rely on draconic SLAs, polar ray is ok but others not so much, having to rely on the monster being held now, etc). They are still ok in easier content, but what about the new 24/5 quest chain on epic elite? Haven't tried it yet, but unless you critical, I'm guessing that most AOE nukes are not going to be impactful but are just going to get you unwanted aggro. Melees are getting far more powerful, and yet nuking spells are not (marginal increases to spell power only, not max caster level, no new spells).

What about when the level cap is increased to lvl 30? 35? Nukes will be pretty much useless at that point...?

You just have to play smart for example you go against a normal group in the new quests on EE: Greater shout on all of them if you can - Power word kill: caster - Energy drain 2 times (fast cooldown use it) then FoD cleric - the melee have now the attention of the other trash - usually its enough to use energy burst then dragonbreath on the rest but that depends a lot what kind of mob it is, you can start with prismatic spray and then wail followed up with energy burst! (water savant fist lifer tactic)

To play a sorcerer well is to use those quick cooldowns and use the right spell for the job at hand it wont do you any good running first into the middle of a group on EE and energy bursting that will just get you killed because a lot of mobs can evade them if do net have high Evocation DC´s.

I am leveling an Air savant now and I started in Magister destiny to get those Evocation DC´s as a twist before I start leveling Draconic.

[Hathorian]

You just have to play smart for example you go against a normal group in the new quests on EE: Greater shout on all of them if you can - Power word kill: caster - Energy drain 2 times (fast cooldown use it) then FoD cleric - the melee have now the attention of the other trash - usually its enough to use energy burst then dragonbreath on the rest but that depends a lot what kind of mob it is, you can start with prismatic spray and then wail followed up with energy burst! (water savant fist lifer tactic)

To play a sorcerer well is to use those quick cooldowns and use the right spell for the job at hand it wont do you any good running first into the middle of a group on EE and energy bursting that will just get you killed because a lot of mobs can evade them if do net have high Evocation DC´s.

I am leveling an Air savant now and I started in Magister destiny to get those Evocation DC´s as a twist before I start leveling Draconic.

Ok, so you also agree that AOE spell nukes (e.g. chain lightning, DBF, otilukes, etc) are obsolete/almost useless in EE content then.

[mute_mayhem]

Ok, so you also agree that AOE spell nukes (e.g. chain lightning, DBF, otilukes, etc) are obsolete/almost useless in EE content then.

It sounds more like he's saying you should use whatever spell is appropriate for the situation.

If you're using the wrong spell for the situation, it's not the game's fault it's not working out so well for you.

To answer the OP, my AoE nukes on my sorc work quite well in EE. However, I actually use tactics and the best spell for the situation.

[goodspeed]

Sounds like you guys are agreeing with me in your posts that nuking spells are becoming less and less relevant (i.e. I rely on draconic SLAs, polar ray is ok but others not so much, having to rely on the monster being held now, etc). They are still ok in easier content, but what about the new 24/5 quest chain on epic elite? Haven't tried it yet, but unless you critical, I'm guessing that most AOE nukes are not going to be impactful but are just going to get you unwanted aggro. Melees are getting far more powerful, and yet nuking spells are not (marginal increases to spell power only, not max caster level, no new spells).

What about when the level cap is increased to lvl 30? 35? Nukes will be pretty much useless at that point...?

Well ya I sort of agree, but I also say their ain't any reason in hell why what my sorc can do to Enorm or ehard (same thing lol) should be anywhere near what it can do to Eelite. I mean I cast a ball of ice and things just vanish on enorm. (Ehard I have to cast 2 haha) But elite is for just that. It nets the good items, and should be stacked in spades with SR, AC, HP, Saves, and everything else. It's why even those am's and pales with god knows how many lives behind em still have problems trying to ko stuff outright.

That said, I really think air savents should get some kind of love. I ditched the pre back at 18, but I found most of all ur spells going off of a reflex save really sucks. Even if your making the preps for it ahead of time (fog, debuffs all that) Idk, make em fort based or something. Or lesson monsters with outright evasion and god mode reflex saves effortlessly making them while clearly not wearing light armor. If that **** monster is able to evade or save on reflex that I want the melee with me to be able to just tear gaping holes inside their chests. Cause their sure as hell ain't any armor protecting it with them pulling the greased up deaf guy moves.

[Hathorian]

It sounds more like he's saying you should use whatever spell is appropriate for the situation.

If you're using the wrong spell for the situation, it's not the game's fault it's not working out so well for you.

To answer the OP, my AoE nukes on my sorc work quite well in EE. However, I actually use tactics and the best spell for the situation.

Ok, so he says he casts depending on the situation and then goes on to name ED abilities, instakills, stuns, etc - pretty much everything other than AOE nukes. Lol. Kinda re-affirms my point by omission.

[Purkilius]

Ok, so he says he casts depending on the situation and then goes on to name ED abilities, instakills, stuns, etc - pretty much everything other than AOE nukes. Lol. Kinda re-affirms my point by omission.

Yeah I use a lot less of AOE nukes in EE but with the right tactics they can be very useful as mute_mayhem pointed out.

I am also pointing out that playing a sorc is not just about nuking, spells like Otto's Irresistible Dance and Symbol of Death for example can work really well for your party!

[Hathorian]

Yeah I use a lot less of AOE nukes in EE but with the right tactics they can be very useful as mute_mayhem pointed out.

I am also pointing out that playing a sorc is not just about nuking, spells like Otto's Irresistible Dance and Symbol of Death for example can work really well for your party!

I understand you have to use other spells in EE, but I think a big part of the reason for that is that nukes just aren't getting it done anymore. Which goes back to the reason for the OP. The Sorc's key strength is nuking and if you can't do that effectively very often in EE it means a much less effective class.

[narizue]

As has been said by other posters in this thread, its a matter of using the right tools for the job. There are aspects of quests where nuking works very well even on EE, and others where you have to utilize other spells.

Its a lot more of the concept of letting the melee's engage and get aggro while throwing down some form of CC, then once they have a solid hold on the mobs, nuking the ever living hell out of them to speed up the beatdown process. Same is true on end bosses. A good intim tank is your best friend IMO. Lets you start nuking earlier.

Given the SLAs that the epic destinies provide, if you feel your nukes are not doing the job, why not replace them with other tools(spells) that are not as limited as a nuke?

Me personally, I will keep using my nuker.

[sirgog]

If you are Shiradi, nuking is viable and in fact is one of the strongest strategies in the game.

I have seen a Sorc20/Shiradi5 obliterate entire rooms of EE mobs with a Meteor Swarm and a couple of other spells.

[psykopeta]

dude it's EE

instakill work well with big investment and the cooldown of that spells is 6 secs minimum

what do u want? 1 shoot rooms fulls of ee mobs with 1 fireball?

fireball empowered, maximized and heightened
same with the lvl 18 sla
same with delayed fireball

so u wanna have 3 mass instakill with an inexistant cooldown and poor cost (each one over 50-60 sp?)

sorry, im leveling a sorc, my first of 3 lives, and i hate it, too overpowered, there's no human reason in a mmorpg with mana/sp to have a class that has higher spell pool, lower cd, bonus to damage and faster speedcasting

what do u get with that? players want to be gods at every lvl

in fact they are right, that caster should be god, those perks use to be ultimate ones for a caster class

luckily theese are balanced quickly with the most extended scale style in mmorpg: more diff = insane hp

complaining about u can't nuke a room full of ee mobs with 1 spell isn't a sane idea

complain when u spent 30% sp in a mob and havent killed it yet (u cant blame its saves sorry :P XD)

[Hathorian]

If you are Shiradi, nuking is viable and in fact is one of the strongest strategies in the game.

I have seen a Sorc20/Shiradi5 obliterate entire rooms of EE mobs with a Meteor Swarm and a couple of other spells.

That sounds like a lot of fun. I'll have to work my way towards the Shiradi ED after I'm done getting some lvls in Exalted Angel. Shiradi is that much more survivable? Wouldn't Legendary Dreadnought also be good?

[Hathorian]

dude it's EE

instakill work well with big investment and the cooldown of that spells is 6 secs minimum

what do u want? 1 shoot rooms fulls of ee mobs with 1 fireball?

fireball empowered, maximized and heightened
same with the lvl 18 sla
same with delayed fireball

so u wanna have 3 mass instakill with an inexistant cooldown and poor cost (each one over 50-60 sp?)

sorry, im leveling a sorc, my first of 3 lives, and i hate it, too overpowered, there's no human reason in a mmorpg with mana/sp to have a class that has higher spell pool, lower cd, bonus to damage and faster speedcasting

what do u get with that? players want to be gods at every lvl

in fact they are right, that caster should be god, those perks use to be ultimate ones for a caster class

luckily theese are balanced quickly with the most extended scale style in mmorpg: more diff = insane hp

complaining about u can't nuke a room full of ee mobs with 1 spell isn't a sane idea

complain when u spent 30% sp in a mob and havent killed it yet (u cant blame its saves sorry :P XD)

Quit trolling/fishing please, I'm not biting. I never said I expected to 1 shot EE mobs.

[FuzzyDuck81]

That sounds like a lot of fun. I'll have to work my way towards the Shiradi ED after I'm done getting some lvls in Exalted Angel. Shiradi is that much more survivable? Wouldn't Legendary Dreadnought also be good?

Dreadnaught would just add durability & better melee capabilities, not all that great on a caster.. if you want to boost pure durability you'd be better of with sentinel.

But yeah, shiradi is a lot of fun - the effects can proc off anything that effects an enemy - whether CC, each tick from a DoT spell, or every individual missile from a magic missile/chain missiles/meteor swarm etc - some of those will be damage from the innate abilities or certain stances, others from the prism stance with double rainbow can be literally anything, from healing an enemy, to a no-save instakill, to summoning a little birdy to hop around cheeping, and pretty much whatever you can think of inbetween.. and those effects in most part don't appear to be subject to the usual immunities (i've seen dancing/stunned skellies, rednamed knocked on their backsides etc.).

The only real problem is the unpredictability of it, which can make things hard in areas where you have to have coordinated kills for example.. and you can't necessarily rely on it to give you the effect you want at the time Regardless, its probably my favourite of all the destiny trees.

[Hathorian]

Sweet. Sounds interesting. I don't normally like unpredictable effects but EE are desparate times for a sorc and could call for desparate measures.

I actually meant unyielding sentinel in my previous post. I'm on the road on my bb and didn't think it through. Great think about US is that you are a lot more survivable and you get Charisma as well. Especially if you can twist in Energy Burst. It is worth considering.

[bigolbear]

ok op heres the technical side of things:

both savant and epic desinties (draconic and magister) feature options for increasing the caster lvl and max caster lvl of spells.

There is equipment that does the same, including the staff of necromancer and twilight (staff from CITW).

The Draconic SLAS can work for all classes (so not favouring sorcs) BUT the spell power situation means that a fighter in draconic will be doing 1/3rd of the damage a sorc will and with no oportunity for crits.

I found nuking to work fine end game, by end game im talking epic elites here.

Honeslty I suspect the issue is one of feats/gear.
Numbers wise most trash on epic elite have aprox 7k hp from what ive observed.
My savant SLA(acid burst) is hitting for 350 to 1200.
My draconic burst is hitting for 3,000 to 10,000.
My dragon breath is hitting for 3,000 to 10,000.

When my sorc can reliably clear a group with a burst+ dragon breath or a burst+ aura or a burst + couple of lower lvl spells then Im not seeing the issue. Conversely a CC/instakill speced caster has to have spell pen/dc's through the roof.(usualy meaning 3 wizard past lives at least)

I agree that a (traditional pure) sorc outside of draconic is going to strugle in epic elites tho as it take 4+ spells to kill something. I dont view this as an issue as the same could be said for a mele not in thier chosen destiny. Its why most folks will change to primary destiny to do epic elites.

If you are strugling with nuking on epic hard/normal then its a gear/feat issue. (after reading some of your responces this doesnt apply - sory wasnt clear initialy)

EDIT: (for clarity and to address the ops critical point)
I view the draconic/magister SLAS' as 'epic spells'. Im guessing you dont. This alone would explain the difference in our opinions. I dont see it as any different to mid or low lvls when you stop using burning hands and move on to fire ball and then move on to using DBF.

I dont see any great harm in taking the caster lvl cap off a few of the high end nukes tho - some already go to 25. Also Im always in favour af adding new spells to the game.