Where do people get these builds...

[HastyPudding]

...because I've seen some pretty horrific ones, lately. Don't people bother to research builds, anymore, instead of almost intentionally gimping themselves? I don't like to use the term gimp but...honestly, some people just don't get it, even after you try to explain things to them. Yes, you're supposed to have fun but there's a bright, neon red line between fun and useful. It might not for you, but it bothers me that people with the strangest, most poorly-thought-out builds think they're amazing.

I try to be nice to everybody, but sometimes it's like watching the most horrible audition on American Idol, where these people think they can sing but they're absolutely terrible. Where can you find drugs that would make one so delusional?

Just today I was hard farming a few runs of PoP in gianthold. I wasn't the party leader so I couldn't see classes until they actually came close, and a rogue joined with a ki bar. I thought, 'okay, maybe he's doing something with dark monk and rogue sneak attacks', nothing wrong with that, I've seen it before. Then he entered the quest.

10 rogue / 4 fighter / 2 monk
Small shield + bastard sword + random loot medium armor

I had found the definition of the word 'speechless'. Upon asking about his unique build, he stated he dealt awesome damage, and that he took every feat that pertained to shields, saying it gave him a ton of doublestrike, and he was building for PRR. Kill counts don't mean much, but in a party with a ranger AA (myself, and I have to say I do excellent dps with the right build), a clueless wizard, a THF fighter, and a healing-specced druid, he had the lowest amount for every run we did by a loooong shot. I'm talking 1-2 kills per run. You'd think after 16 levels somebody would have seriously told him, 'no, this isn't good, don't do that'. After a few attempts at explaining his build, him linking his god-awful bastard swords and shield, and a rather hilarious comment from the fighter, I gave up and left him to his delusions of grandeur.

Something needs to be done about this. I don't usually concern myself with ignorant people who refuse to listen to reason but I mean...wow...I'm still flabbergasted at the thought of somebody thinking this build would work.

Has anyone else encountered a really strange or absolutely horrible build, lately? I seem to be seeing far too many...there needs to be some way to get people to read the class/race forums more often.

[psi0nix]

he made it through the quests though ? - maybe not taking KC but no one really cares about that too much, (at least in regard to how good your build is).

If he can survive and do something useful then well... who cares ?

There are a heap of reasons for having 'gimp' builds, as I've said here before my 1st life sorc I built using my know how from PnP D&D, it didn't work out to be the 'best' build (190hp at lvl20 - 3000Sp (3 years or more ago), all in all a 'gimp' if ever there was one, with points in dex and things like that.

There is also those who just follow the path given by DDO, really the devs should put 'some' effort into those builds, at least make them a standard min/max build or something to give people a chance.

But yeah, I don't really care what someones build is, if I am in a PUG then it's given that I've opened the door to any and all, that's why it's a PUG, not a guild / channel run.

[maddmatt70]

I ran with a 9 barbarian 6 bard 5 rogue level 25 finesse light pick wielding halfling about 2-3 weeks ago. He wore white dragonplate and white dragon helm and he jumped around all the time for no apparent reason. He also would check for traps here or there randomly. My guildy and me were in the group with him and three other pugs. We were just mezmorized by him. I have never seen anything like him in 7 years of playing. I was disappointed when the group broke up because this guy took things to a whole new level. My guildy said after the run that his faith in the fun of running in pugs had been restored after this run.

[Miow]

I ran with a 9 barbarian 6 bard 5 rogue level 25 finesse light pick wielding halfling about 2-3 weeks ago. He wore white dragonplate and white dragon helm and he jumped around all the time for no apparent reason. He also would check for traps here or there randomly. My guildy and me were in the group with him and three other pugs. We were just mezmorized by him. I have never seen anything like him in 7 years of playing. I was disappointed when the group broke up because this guy took things to a whole new level. My guildy said after the run that his faith in the fun of running in pugs had been restored after this run.

Lol fricken awesome!

[jandhaer]

An AA talking about non optimal builds lol thats funny :-D

j/k AA's are fun thats why i have one myself, cant blame anyone for wanting to try a non cookie cutter build thinking outside the box, if theyre having fun then theyre doing it right... just not in my groups :-P

[Syllph]

OP, I think the issue with the people who think they're amazing but really aren't is that they have nothing to compare themselves to. I've seen this a lot, some guy with a new shiny weapon dealing crappy damage, but to him it's the best he's seen on his toon. I saw a level 23 bragging about critting for 100.

[Bunker]

1: You could toss him a weapon, some other gear. Help him out, and guide him to become better.

2: Post on the forums berating the random pugger for doing nothing more than being him.

I could be mistaken, but we were all green at one time. We were all new to the game at least once.

-Bunk

P.S. OP, who are you?

[Bekki]

1: You could toss him a weapon, some other gear. Help him out, and guide him to become better.

2: Post on the forums berating the random pugger for doing nothing more than being him.

I could be mistaken, but we were all green at one time. We were all new to the game at least once.

-Bunk

Bout sums it up...

I have had my share of... Abysmal... builds over the years...

Maybe this player was going for Rogue 12/ Ftr4/ Monk 2?
While maybe not the best, as long as they can do their job.
Is it all that bad?

Honestly... I never planned to have Bekki wind up as a Fighter 12/ Ranger 6/ Rogue 2...

I took fighter.... Realized I didn't have the Dex to go TWF... Took 2 Lvl's of Ranger...
Oh, Lvl 3 ranger gets die hard... Yup; I did... Took Lvl 3...


Added another level for spells...

And then realized I had absolutely no plan for what to do next!

So I took two more Ranger Lvl's for Tempest...

Finally around level 18... I went to one of the masters... Sig Treant.
And he helped me correct a lot of mistakes...

Bekki was never what you would call... Optimal...

But he held his own when it counted...
Granted there may be a lot of crazy builds out there but
Half the fun is seeing what other people like to do!

And Bunker is right... We were all new once too.

Just my 2cp's....

*Bekki pours everyone a drink...

[Bacab]

I have played with many badly built players.

I see some people play really weird builds and blow my mind with how good they are. Then I see some people that just are horrible.

I feel bad when someone is BRAND NEW and they have a terrible build. Especially if they do not find out until like level 9 or higher.

At that point, they think they should "just get to 20 and TR". What ends up happening is they have a bad toon that gets carried to 20. They realize this and hate the toon and then TR without gear or plat to fund the next life properly.

Us "old" players just had to re-roll.

I swear, the guy that gave me the "Goodblade" quests started recognizing me.

He would deride me not so subtly!

"Hey Bacab, you realized that an INT based Cleric sucks huh?" (yes I tried that...for diplo and stuff)

"How did your DEX based Halfing SOR work?" (AC, Ray Spells...)

"Yeah I could have told you that a Cleric>Paladin!" (Battle Cleric>PLD for survivability...)

"You realize that no one likes Warforged huh!?" (no one liked WF back then...seems we have come full circle)
*All these comments...from2006

Anyway, lotsa new players are hurt by seeing us be "UBER".

I remember hanging out in the Lobster and casting Remove Curse on people to be nice (used to be permanent).
A buddy and I both had level 5 Clerics just so when we partied...we would log into our Clerics and uncurse our new toons for each other...no way was the COINLORDS getting my MONEY!.

I remember going to some online thingy to trade good weapons. Sunblades...were KING!

I remember getting a Maelstrom on my Cleric in Tempest Spine...and people screaming over chat that it was a waste for a CLeric to get it.

Anyway...done reminiscing. My advice...if you are in a patient mood...help the new player. If you are not...get as far away from them as you can.

[9Crows]

a general rule of thumb about advice on anything ...if someones not asking for it they typically dont want it ...

ive seen some diferent builds and gear choices like everyone ...but the person who chose them had reasons for it which is good enough ...since this is just a game ... just a pleasant way to waste time

[Emurian]

a general rule of thumb about advice on anything ...if someones not asking for it they typically dont want it ...

Untrue IMO, some of the newer players just dont seem to have the courage to ask a TRX for some advice. What I always do is saying: May I give you some tips? You notice that players happily take in advice when offered in a nice way unlike the: **** gimp, how did you get that idea in your head, you obviously have a bad build etc etc.

Its all about not pushing them to take on your advice, I always give them some tips to get rid off the biggest flaws in their builds and tell them if they ever want advice, just shoot a tell and il take my time to help them out. Best way imo to let people realise that their toon could be much more then their playing with atm.

On topic, as for the first post regarding research. Im sorry to say but the forums aren't really that reliable either when it comes to building a toon. I have seen a couple of builds on here that where flawed with their feat selections. Therefor I only look on the forum for inspiration and then alter the build to my own playing style.

As for strange builds, I find the WF ranger / pally / rogue splash of my guildie Crossy to be somewhat weird. Even more cuz he always uses 2 handers but then again once you play with him you notice that it works. . in his hands that is. I dont write off weird builds straightaway, the build and gear isn't even half the thing that makes the toon, gaming skills can make up for allot of the gimpness that we might perceive about the build =).

Thats why I never denied a toon with a exotic build, I do make a mental note of the players name if I see him fail utterly in multiple quests but thats about it. Also, I dont grade a toon its effectiveness based upon the amount of kills he makes. My wizard can come out as a top killer in allot of groups by simply nuking and instantkilling everything but allot of times I prefer to toy around a bit and use as much CC as possible. Differen't approach but both just as effective [depending upon the quest some situations demand one out of 2 approaches but their mostly both valid approaches.]

You just seem to have had the bad luck to end up with a player that indeed had a flawed build and lacking the skills to make up for it. By my guessing he was to stubborn to take on advice, if that, coupled with the fact he died allot and didn't contribute much to the group caused you to rage thats perfectly understandeble. Heres my tip for you when it happens, go smoke a cigarette and continue playing once your calmed down again a bit. That always works for me =p.

[voodoogroves]

The game is big.

Some of the odd-on-the-surface builds may have a workable plan behind them if you push into it ... especially for someone looking to get a past life on a class they hate ;-) I'm running an abomination for a pally past life right now, and honestly I think my ranger PL is going to be just about as screwy.

We had a shield-using ranger a few years back on G-Land that received much ... verbal focus.

[DrakHar]

The game is big.

Some of the odd-on-the-surface builds may have a workable plan behind them if you push into it ... especially for someone looking to get a past life on a class they hate ;-) I'm running an abomination for a pally past life right now, and honestly I think my ranger PL is going to be just about as screwy.

We had a shield-using ranger a few years back on G-Land that received much ... verbal focus.

That guy was legendary.

To be fair, I had a huge problem with him because he would not take advice and often linked stuff he had and talked about how awesome the build was.

I like grouping with new people. Heck, even if you want to make a not great character and keep it that way - but don't start beating you chest about playing a suboptimal build... UNLESS you rolled a gimp. That's just funny. This guy just got on my nerves. To be fair, though, when 95% of the server has you squelched, I guess you get mad at the remaining 5 who can hear you.

[voodoogroves]

That guy was legendary.

He's still around too. I thought there was some sort of bet he lost and he was supposed to delete the toon, but no ;-)

[Phidius]

...I could be mistaken, but we were all green at one time. We were all new to the game at least once.
...

I've been green for 6+ years now

I welcome anyone who wants to join me for any quest.

I care about your personality and attitude, not your build etc.
Come along, be nice, play well with others... and preferably do not give up when it gets tough.
...

(edited for brevity, not disagreement)

...
And bring a nice friendly "can do" attitude.

... and we'll do just fine, or at least have fun trying.

+1 Totally agree

[Karavek]

I am semi famous/infamous among those who know me on Ghallanda or harken back to fernia for my persistence in making dex based finesse warrior centric characters who dump con and strength in a defiant effort to show others that 1( HP is a buffer not a defense and you dont need that buffer if you know what your doing) and 2( being dex based does not gimp out your melee ability, especially if your a rogue as the majority of your DPS comes from your SA and your weapon.

One of my oldest and most loved characters, who used to regularly run raids as soon as they came out back in the old days when our lvl cap was much lower. But pretty much since the shroud and its hamster wheel of death playstyle affliction I retired him to more casual random adventure.

These days he is resting at lvl 22 with a split of 13RGE/6FTR/1 ARTEE. He is pure dex/int with a preference for fighting in melee using a single weapon and his swashbucklers buckler. His defensive nature is surprisingly solid, proving to be very hard to put down and capable of very healthy DPS inspite of using a single weapon.

He is a doublestrike build and his percentage is high enough that usually every 3-4 attacks will see a DS proc. On top of this I have had the pleasure of seeing it work during an assassination strike. Both in on a single target who survived his first save only to be hit by the DS and fail the 2nd save, as well as standing next to two unaware enemies and as I swing I rotate so that the DS if it procs actually hits the 2nd guy and have killed 2 foes with a single AS. Now that is ALOT of fun for me personally.

Those who encounter him for maybe a casual challenge run or maybe doing a run of something more for loot and need a serious trap taken out or a lock picked I come to aid and they see a guy in light armor with a rapier and a shield and clearly think ***.

Yet a few fights later and the KC will generally show me in the top 3 killers, the fighters and barbs are sucking down pots or begging for heals as they forsook defensive measures completely. Meanwhile my bag filled with scrolls,wands,pots and weapons for every imaginable foe type one could imagine may keep my loot space limited but I am never ever thinking **** I am sure in need of X and wish I had it.

Finally he can use a repeater tremendously well. and switches to ranged DPS and kiting if the situation makes it the tactical and practical approach. He is not MELEE nor RANGED but a true hybrid of both. His fighter pre is SD as you may have guessed and his main ED is US although I have found the oddest and most unexpected advantage of his build is virtually all ED can be adapted to synch with and enhance my build in various ways.

Even GMOF was far more fun then pain to work through. I even at times donned robes and hand wraps just for the fun of it, and frankly since most DPS comes from my SA and wraps the fact my base hand dmg was trivial was an equally trivial issue. The ki blasts where so much fun to play with, and the break from sword and board/repeater to play all DBZ fighter style was a refreshing break.

The point of this whole long ramble is to highlight how a build someone else might just not "GET" is not always the train wreck you imagine it is for the one using it. New players might make big mistakes, but the ones committed to this game will figure it all out in time, those who lack the drive to are like those at the table top who refuse to spend a few hours a week reading up on game manuals to know what their class can do, Ive seen PnP rogues who never try to flank for some easy SA, casters who only take utility spells and favor fighting with weapons etc. All because they hadnt really read the rules. Then they always ask for what dice to throw etc.

Dont expect everyone to be the "BEST" as that is highly subject to opinion. For some the best is being hyper specialized and utterly incompetent in every area expect that niche. Some see the best as never being dependent upon another and only allies with others to be a more effective larger version of what they are like a lap top vs the power of a series of networked towers. Both are essentially the same in purpose and abilities one just is more redundant and therefore less likely to fail in a task due to being broken down.

Also not everyone is the best in all types of fights. My rogue typically abhors and ignores undead heavy content no matter the promised rewards. But you can give him a kiss and a copper to get him to go make war against fleshy fellow drow all day long.

[FestusHood]

All i can say is that if you don't understand how a build works, you don't know for certain that it doesn't work. All you know is that it isn't a "forum approved" build. I'm sure many of the now accepted builds were considered quite odd when they were first attempted.

[HastyPudding]

Rather than quote a dozen posts:

1) I actually did try to help this person. I offered him plenty of advice on a TWF build that might work with his mixture of classes that the fighter chimed in on. I found a pretty nice bastard sword in a chest during the quest and gave it to him (he was actually rather excited). And, I was not rude in any way to him, I simply stated he really needs to rethink his build if he wants it to be very effective; the fighter and druid agreed with me and were also giving advice.

2) His performance in the quest was, to say the least, lackluster. I mean no disrespect to him, but if the druid didn't have a pet that pulled the switches to get into the prison chambers, he could have done that job and the quest would have been the same result with one less person. He was, more or less, baggage we dragged around. He didn't die, nor did he help in any way that was noticeable.

3) I really don't see the need to use a shield unless you're trying to hold aggro and tank, or it augments your class's abilities (like a devotion shield for a cleric). I explained this to him and he seemed adamant that the doublestrike gained from the shield was not only good dps, but better than other builds. His performance said otherwise; I actually watched a mob's HP that we were both attacking and I only saw my hits, as his were so infinitesimally small that it seemed to barely register on the HP bar.

4) Myself, I have three main characters on Argo; Arthies (3rd life shintao healing-amp monk), Archarias (7th life caster-only character, currently on second cleric life), and Ishtaris (3rd life ranged-only character currently on a ranger AA life). I run frequently with some of the top players on the server, but I don't consider myself part of the herd. I don't claim to be top tier DPS, nor do I think I am. In fact, as some of you might know on these forums, I make builds like pure enchantment-focused archmages, rogue mechanics, and pure 20 ranger AA's. I know the point of building what you want to have fun and ignoring the naysayers around me. My hatred of exploiter builds and other absurdly OP multiclassing is fairly well known on the Argo server. I in no way consider myself an elitist but I won't hesitate to say something about a build just doesn't function correctly; I'll also be the first to say play to have fun.

[Galeria]

Something needs to be done about this. I don't usually concern myself with ignorant people who refuse to listen to reason but I mean...wow...I'm still flabbergasted at the thought of somebody thinking this build would work.

What do you propose be done? And by whom?