Where do people get these builds...

[mobrien316]

Had to add somebody to my squelch list today.

I applied to join his LFM and he told me "sorry need serious builds." Then declined me.

(and here I thought 4272 favor was serious enough. )

"Sorry, need serious builds" and other comments like that usually translate to "I'm horribly unskilled and ignorant and am hoping for some powergamers to carry me though a quest I would otherwise have no hope of completing."

[LadySorrows]

I have been playing DDO off and on for about four years now. When I first started playing I made pure builds I mean you really cant mess up a pure build too badly and you pretty much get what you expect out of a pure build. It was comfortable for me as I was learning the basics of DDO, the maps, gearing, etc. Now I still like pures but I have branched out and started building builds that to me are viable, fun, self-sufficient and usually outside the norm of what would be considered a regular build.

I have run with lots of incredible players and lots of works in progress players, builds and gear are usually a factor but its really all about play style. I built several toons which I was told would not be able to make it to 20, but they did and they turned out to be darn good toons, the same people who said they would never make it asked for the builds when they saw the end result, Toons don't always shine at every level, sometimes it is a waiting game to be worthy of the judgemental perfect players of DDO. I have listened to advice on all sides about a couple of my toons, which actually both of them turned out to be unstoppable at 20, but all the criticisms, bad and good advice of veteran players didnt really help because simply the people telling me how to build my toon COULD NOT SEE THE END RESULTS of what i was building till they got to lvl 20.

A perfect example is I was running VON I was lvl 12 I think running with an elitest guild I ran with these guys many times before, but on my more mainstream builds - So anyways someone asked about my build and I tried to explain it but before I could even finish it, they were criticizing the build and so on and so forth I didnt say anything I figured if she didn't work out I could reroll and work on the build so I just did my part and we came to the fight with the metal dogs etc, would you believe that the whole freaking group wiped and I was last one standing killed the rest of the mobs, and as I was picking up stones I said "You know if I was B*tch I would leave you all here dead for telling me how gimp my toon is"

All the uber builds that folks make comes from imagaination and seeing where you think something can be improved, so quit complaining, and let the people with original thoughts build their toons for good or bad. You never know if that person you are criticizing might be the one to help you when you dont expect it.

[eden2760]

I have been playing DDO off and on for about four years now. When I first started playing I made pure builds I mean you really cant mess up a pure build too badly and you pretty much get what you expect out of a pure build. It was comfortable for me as I was learning the basics of DDO, the maps, gearing, etc. Now I still like pures but I have branched out and started building builds that to me are viable, fun, self-sufficient and usually outside the norm of what would be considered a regular build.

I have run with lots of incredible players and lots of works in progress players, builds and gear are usually a factor but its really all about play style. I built several toons which I was told would not be able to make it to 20, but they did and they turned out to be darn good toons, the same people who said they would never make it asked for the builds when they saw the end result, Toons don't always shine at every level, sometimes it is a waiting game to be worthy of the judgemental perfect players of DDO. I have listened to advice on all sides about a couple of my toons, which actually both of them turned out to be unstoppable at 20, but all the criticisms, bad and good advice of veteran players didnt really help because simply the people telling me how to build my toon COULD NOT SEE THE END RESULTS of what i was building till they got to lvl 20.

A perfect example is I was running VON I was lvl 12 I think running with an elitest guild I ran with these guys many times before, but on my more mainstream builds - So anyways someone asked about my build and I tried to explain it but before I could even finish it, they were criticizing the build and so on and so forth I didnt say anything I figured if she didn't work out I could reroll and work on the build so I just did my part and we came to the fight with the metal dogs etc, would you believe that the whole freaking group wiped and I was last one standing killed the rest of the mobs, and as I was picking up stones I said "You know if I was B*tch I would leave you all here dead for telling me how gimp my toon is"

All the uber builds that folks make comes from imagaination and seeing where you think something can be improved, so quit complaining, and let the people with original thoughts build their toons for good or bad. You never know if that person you are criticizing might be the one to help you when you dont expect it.

I believe what the OP was intending to get across was not a complaint about flavor builds or unique builds.

I believe he's talking about builds that, any person with a considerable amount of experience or knowledge of fundamental class mechanics would say, are suboptimal to the extreme.

I certainly would think that if you were going to take a bunch of shield feats that you wouldn't take monk, let alone alongside rogue levels which are traditionally built for twf. Because (and correct me if I'm wrong) any bonuses from monk (with the exception of evasion, which a rogue gets already) require being centered, which would require either not using shields, or sacrificing any intended benefits from the monk levels taken. Again, that's just my opinion based on my personal experience and knowledge of game mechanics.

I've also seen builds where people have mixed very odd amounts of sorc/wiz levels or clr/fvs levels, things that completely negate the advantage of higher level spells and the mechanic of caster level being correlated to damage/DCs.

There's something to be said about fun vs. effectiveness to be sure. But this is not PnP. There is no human DM to adjust for you if you are floundering because your build is completely incapable of contributing to the completion of a quest in any meaningful manner. PnP doesn't have dungeon scaling either, which is another factor that increases the need for each person to be able to balance fun with being able to contribute something meaningful.

TL/DR: Custom builds can be awesome. This isn't PnP. There is no human DM to offset bad builds. One should balance their fun with the ability to contribute something meaningful to a group, or else not expect to be successful in grouping except with like-minded players. Some untested builds can work, others are unequivocally bad.

[ThePrincipal]

These kinds of posts are very mean spirited and they are far too many of them.

[Yehediah]

Yes, there are bad builds and the OP does list some stuff that's hard to comprehend on his example. Just to say, there are good points in this thread, but there are things regarding builds cannot be taken at face value...

Often a build one doesn't understand gets pegged as a bad build when it's not necessarily. And, even then, sometimes it's just a temporary build to "endure" through a hated class on your way to completionist or just to get a desired past life feat. I for instance, am not fond of playing barbarians - so, I do some strange stuff to get through a barbarian life. Sometimes I learn some interesting things (6 barbarian/12 bard/2 rogue) - barbarian was just because I wanted that past life (after doing a lesser reincarnation to "fix" the barbarian levels to top) and the barbarian part wasn't all that helpful, but the 12 bard/2 rogue (warchanter) WAS rather effective - just a matter of finding out what is the best use of the other 6 levels (rogue or fighter maybe).

Also, DPS doesn't always register to kill counts (as a kill count is more dependent on who makes the last hit, not who did the most damage and therefore favors classes with the most number of attacks and in some cases, casters). And, it depends on how good the DPS is for the rest of the group as to whether it's really lousy DPS or just not as good or uber geared as the rest of the group. And, other things can effect kill counts. A trapfinder might get less kills if he's doing traps while the others are killing - effective time use if the group can handle the kills without him. A buffer might also do less kills, but sure help everyone else do some pretty awesome stuff. And, sadly, healing has little in the XP window to show their contribution.

[Beer_Dude]

"Sorry, need serious builds" and other comments like that usually translate to "I'm horribly unskilled and ignorant and am hoping for some powergamers to carry me though a quest I would otherwise have no hope of completing."

You hit the nail on the head. I pretty much just take who ever hit's join. TBH I almost always don't even look to see what their build even is. I just click accept.

[Maelodic]

There was one time I was running the diplomatic impunity quest on Elite and a drow rogue had put 0 points into Con, and only have 6 con, so no +CON items either. He died a lot, and the clerics spent far too much effort trying to keep him alive that they forgot about our other party members and we got wiped. I asked him why he had 6 con and he said that he needed WIS for spot. I tried to explain that you really don't need WIS for spot, but he just started spamming my tells with how much of a noob I was and how every rogue I make is going to be worthless etc etc.

I play this game because I find the community amazing, so it's strange when you meet someone like that.

Either way, at the OP, if someone is enjoying themselves, and they aren't dying, I don't think I'd complain about it. I thought my halfling SLA Evocation Dragonmarked wizard was incredible until I discovered he usually drops in a few hits at level 16. I actually am afraid of playing him now because he can't solo anything, and just has to snipe things from behind.

But he was incredible at lower levels. I always got the highest kill count and healed everyone and just carried PuGs like mad. I'd find a wiped party in the waterworks and blow up all the gathered kobalds and all my noobie friends would love it. It's really not about minmaxing. I'm working on an AA Unarmed Artificer because it has everything I want in a character. He's not going to be a super zippy murder house like my Monk or a self sufficient aoe machine like my Artificer, but he's going to be fun and I'm going to enjoy playing him. Powergamers will be powergamers. Just don't invite him to stuff where he's expected to be more useful.

[HastyPudding]

People seem to have completely misinterpreted this thread. I don't care if people have strange builds so long as they can at least contribute to the group. A rogue wielding a bastard sword and small shield specced for doublestrike while having redundant monk levels, no self-healing, low dps, and no tanking ability is not going to add much to the group other than be a punching bag and a burden on the healer. The build simply does not work and is a waste of a party slot that could have been a real S&B tank, a functional rogue or monk, or something that does more damage or adds utility.

If you have a crazy build that functions well and does its job, that's great. If you have an almost random, half-hazard build that does nothing to contribute and completely gimps (I use that word very sparingly) your particular class(s), you need to rethink what you're doing, change your build, stay away from more experienced groups, or start something else. That's the bottom line.

[Dieterstrife]

Rogue S&B build with 2 monk.

Ever think the 2 monk might have not been for the evasion but instead was for the extra 2 feats? 6 Fighter is obvious, but maybe not everyone who is S&B aspires to be a tank. I know on Argo there are 2 Kensai S&B builds, and the mindset behind them is they are doing as much dps as your average dual wielder, but have much higher defenses.

And unlike a lot of the forumites, I know to not base everything around an Emari chain slotted ESOS wielding Barbarian when I think of decent dps builds.

And kill counts mean absolutely nothing in all cases but 1: You run off, clear an entire area then come back and help the rest of the party clear their area? Your kill count will reflect not only your dps but your self sufficiency. Which is partly why my fighter ended up (in the last 5 quests he pugged) with kill counts measuring on average of double the next closest person in my group, including the sorcs. Does that mean he's high dps? No, it means I was just hitting fast and cleaving through large groups of enemies with displace running. Could a barbarian, sorc, kensai fighter (I'm a stalwart), monk or even a rogue done the same thing? Yeah, hell a ranger or paladin could have done it.

The build doesn't make you a good player. The player makes you a good player. Stop complaining about others.

[roy_nokturno]

I had been told that my kill count is too low (tough not too often). This happens because some of the players are doing a competition out of it, and personaly I think DDO designers should remove the kill count by character.
Im playing a sorcerer in Khyber (sorcerer 20 epic 2 atm), usually, in a quest with say 100 mobs, I get between 10-15 kills. Does that mean Im usuless? No. And not only because of my buffing skills (GH, Blur, Resist Elements), it's because the way I play. You see, if a full party has a melee character I usually don't bother in finishing the mobs (unless he's in trouble), is the spell did 2800 HP of damage to a 3000 HP mob, I let the melee character to finish it off while I proceed to the next mob, saving sp, time and optimizing the role of the melee.

[FlameDiablo]

Yesterday made a TR party, i seen a lot of trash joining, 2 stayed 4 kikked out.
Rude? Maybe but they should read LFM that say "TR only" and don't join if they r 1st life, or 100 HP at lvl 13 and... "wich quest?" meh yu should ceck in location of my toon, but still ok to reply "oob" "what is oob?" -> kik

IMO this is only way to teach em something

[ThePrincipal]

if you dont have a 2-3 gimp builds in your stable, then you arent trying hard enough. character building is the best part of this game and if you dont get creative then youre missing out. i'm lvling a ranger/wizard/rogue and it's a blast.

[mobrien316]

Yesterday made a TR party, i seen a lot of trash joining, 2 stayed 4 kikked out.
Rude? Maybe but they should read LFM that say "TR only" and don't join if they r 1st life, or 100 HP at lvl 13 and... "wich quest?" meh yu should ceck in location of my toon, but still ok to reply "oob" "what is oob?" -> kik

IMO this is only way to teach em something

You might want to look at strengthening your own character if you can only survive with other people in the group to carry you.

How did you know the people joining were trash before you kicked them? By their HP total? Because they asked which quest? Give me a break...

[Fedora]

10 rogue / 4 fighter / 2 monk
Small shield + bastard sword + random loot medium armor

Yeah that seems sub-optimal even to my inexperienced eyes.

Usually a fighter multiclass is for feats, haste boost, martial weapons, and tower shields. In this case the toon was using an exotic weapon and small shield, so we would assume it was for feats and haste boost. Possibly taking this to fighter 6 for PrE.

A monk splash is usually feats and evasion, maybe AC. The medium armor rules out AC and evasion.

Rouge is usually for evasion, traps/locks, UMD, and SA. Again the medium armor kills evasion and adds some armor check penalties to many skills, and the small shield makes SA less effective.

Really if you take away the medium armor it would help, replace it with robes....

Dang lunch is here got to cut off early...

[AzB]

if you dont have a 2-3 gimp builds in your stable, then you arent trying hard enough. character building is the best part of this game and if you dont get creative then youre missing out. i'm lvling a ranger/wizard/rogue and it's a blast.

<fires up the character planner>

Ooh! That looks interesting...

[AzB]

IMO this is only way to teach em something

What exactly have you taught them? That elitists are toolbags and that you're awesomesauce?

All you're doing is running off new players, convincing new players that rude elitism is not only acceptable, it's preferred, and that PUGS are primarily for anti social and immature players.

And people wonder why it's so hard to find a PUG anymore...

[psykopeta]

This game has an advantage over all other games. The combination of builds is second to none.

We are able to create builds that some might think as crazy. But the person behind the key board can make them into brilliant characters because the person controlling them has the talent to do it. Regardless of how crazy it might seem.

that's why i never look for builds in the forum, they are all the same with same playstyle, which differs a ton from my playstyle, i mean i love using the environment to my benefit (and love hiding in corners near a door lol)

tons of players have a trouble with ddo, they think about it as another mmorpg where your class has a role, a build and the rest stinks

here that means you MUST have the build they think it's useful and the hp they want you to have, dunno why these players use lfm with such ego

for me there's only 1 gimp toon/build/player: that one that dies tons of times in the same quest and keeps using the same playstyle w/o changing (if i die when zerging, im supposed to go more slowly as example) no matter how awful are his/her numbers refering to hp/build

[Quetzacoala]

We were all new once. The only reason I am anywhere near being a competent player is because of all of the kind players out there who took the time to tell me what I was doing wrong and how I could improve.

I always try to take the time to help out those players who think that they are doing superbly simply because they have no idea of where they rank in the grand scheme of things; the only new people that I cannot tolerate are those who, in the face of all reason, declare themselves to be right anyway.

[HastyPudding]

We were all new once. The only reason I am anywhere near being a competent player is because of all of the kind players out there who took the time to tell me what I was doing wrong and how I could improve.

I always try to take the time to help out those players who think that they are doing superbly simply because they have no idea of where they rank in the grand scheme of things; the only new people that I cannot tolerate are those who, in the face of all reason, declare themselves to be right anyway.

I help others, as well. I enjoy answering questions when I'm in the harbor and giving some build advice for those who ask it. I also handed out some good random loot stuff to newbies when I was in the harbor on my wizard's current life (like a 'unique' quarterstaff to an aspiring thief acrobat and a neat little bow to a nubbie ranger).

While I'm more than happy to help out the new players, once they get into the middle-higher levels (like 15+) they have no sympathy from me. There is NO excuse for having horrible builds that late in the game. Somebody, at some point in the game told them "hey, you should really find a con item and pick up the toughness feat" or "you really shouldn't mix wizard with sorcerer levels". When people take advice and don't apply it or they completely ignore it, then that's the problem.

Example: I remember my wizard's last life, I met a low level wizard in the marketplace and I basically gave him an hour's worth of sound advice on his build, spell choices, how spellpower works, etc. I later met him again in the vale; with horrible HP he had neglected to fix, poor spell choices, a staff several levels too low for him and still not knowing a thing about the game. Every piece of advice I gave him he ignored. No excuse.

[mobrien316]

I help others, as well. I enjoy answering questions when I'm in the harbor and giving some build advice for those who ask it. I also handed out some good random loot stuff to newbies when I was in the harbor on my wizard's current life (like a 'unique' quarterstaff to an aspiring thief acrobat and a neat little bow to a nubbie ranger).

While I'm more than happy to help out the new players, once they get into the middle-higher levels (like 15+) they have no sympathy from me. There is NO excuse for having horrible builds that late in the game. Somebody, at some point in the game told them "hey, you should really find a con item and pick up the toughness feat" or "you really shouldn't mix wizard with sorcerer levels". When people take advice and don't apply it or they completely ignore it, then that's the problem.

Example: I remember my wizard's last life, I met a low level wizard in the marketplace and I basically gave him an hour's worth of sound advice on his build, spell choices, how spellpower works, etc. I later met him again in the vale; with horrible HP he had neglected to fix, poor spell choices, a staff several levels too low for him and still not knowing a thing about the game. Every piece of advice I gave him he ignored. No excuse.

The only way you can tell if someone is good or horrible is to quest with them, not to look at their build.

If you see a 6/6 wizard/sorcerer who wants to join your group, let him join. If you run a quest with him and he's fun to group with, I guess he doesn't have a horrible build. If he dies every four seconds while screaming how awesome he is, then don't group with him again.

There isn't one "right" way to build anything. There isn't even two. If your own character is too weak to survive with anything less than a full group of uber-geared min-maxers's with multiple past lives, then it's time to TR and roll a better character yourself.