Where do people get these builds...

[Zenako]

I'll take a good player with ANY build over a poor player with the best forum approved cookie cutter build.

Seriously, this is not a new thing. Out of family builds have been in the game since 2006.

Some work fine, some...not so fine. The goal of the game is to have fun and that is clearly different for different people.

[psi0nix]

An entire new crop of players plays however they want, and they dont gain an understanding of whats best,

Really ? did you actually say that ? lol - OMG these noobs are playing the game they way they want ! stop them ! ... that is possibly one of the most arrogant things I've seen on these forums.....

because the game is so easy that their light pick swinging finesse barbarian is blowing through content.

This is just BS, I can't even begin to point out just how 'wrong' that statement is, but it's the kind of thing that would be obvious to anyone who actually plays the game. (Also if they are 'blowing through' content then why is it an issue to run with them ?, I thought the issue was that they were incapable of completing / contributing).

You supported the easy buttons? You supported light pick finesse barbarians and terribad multiclass splits with shields.

Personally I supported people being able to play a game they generally pay for the way they want to play it. How horrible that people are enjoying themselves, put a stop to it now turbine ! - the game mustn't be a 'game' if it's not 'your LIFE' then you are of no value.

Seriously, this is elitism at it's worst, there is plenty of challenge in the game, just posting it's "too easy" all the time does not make it so.

I would suggest people like yourself just don't bother grouping with anyone but your little circle of elitist snobs as it's clearly the only social group you will function in to any success.

If you don't want to see builds or players that don't come up to 'your' standards then don't PUG simple as that.

Some of us like to play for fun, when we are playing for XP / per min it's does private groups / guild, PUGs are for everyone to have a go and have fun, failure is a possibility and should not be seen as such a horrible thing.

Pro-tip : You don't have to "win" all the time to have fun.

You say the games too easy, but deride people for not being 'elite' ......

(You can neg rep all you want chai, it doesn't change the truth of the matter).

[BitkaCK2]

Pffft, you call those gimp builds? You should have seen my 1st life, 28 point WF TWF pure pally! Now that was gimp.

bitkaCK2

[SirValentine]

Had a Barb5/Clr5 hit my LFM once. Is that so you can heal yourself after you dismiss your Rage? Declined, not due to build, but due to LFM comments clearly stating level range 5-8.

[Therigar]

Don't people bother to research builds, anymore, instead of almost intentionally gimping themselves?

I could almost have taken your post and this thread seriously if you hadn't said you are running an arcane archer that does awesome DPS.

Here is the thing, if you start out playing DDO and you are seeing 5, 7, 4, 16, 3, 2, 5 go floating over the mobs as you fight them, then when you start seeing numbers in the 20's or 30's you think you are doing awesome damage.

And, when you start the game with weapons from Korthos Island and finally pick up random generated loot with multiple procs so that you start seeing 2 or 3 or more floaty numbers per hit -- then you're in high cotton as we used to say, you're really doing serious damage now.

So these players are not intentionally gimping themselves. They are just following on with the things they are learning about the game as they discover them. The 4 fighter 2 monk gives 5 additional feats. Not a stupid thing. The shield and bastard sword gives glancing blows. Not a stupid thing.

Does it all work together to create an uber build. Not by forum standards. But in that player's experience? Probably so.

And, to address your question directly, it is probable that the vast majority of players do not research their builds before they start them. Most players don't visit the forums so anything found here is entirely lost to them. I regularly run into players, many with epic characters, who either don't know the wiki exists or who don't use it even though they do know.

There are a lot of people whose fun is tied into discovering for them self. We can bad mouth them all that we want. But the truth is that they really aren't hurting anyone.

Did you complete the quest -- clearly you did, multiple times. So what harm was done?

Could their build be better? Sure. But they probably don't want someone they don't know being critical of it and offering advice. How did you feel when I started by saying that I couldn't take you seriously because you're running an arcane archer? Did it make you a bit upset, wanting to defend your build?

Leave the players alone. They'll eventually figure things out. And until they do, as long as the group is completing the quest it isn't really causing harm.

[Andoris]

If you don't want to see builds or players that don't come up to 'your' standards then don't PUG simple as that.

Some of us like to play for fun, when we are playing for XP / per min it's does private groups / guild, PUGs are for everyone to have a go and have fun, failure is a possibility and should not be seen as such a horrible thing.

Pro-tip : You don't have to "win" all the time to have fun.

Well said +1

[HastyPudding]

I could almost have taken your post and this thread seriously if you hadn't said you are running an arcane archer that does awesome DPS.

Here is the thing, if you start out playing DDO and you are seeing 5, 7, 4, 16, 3, 2, 5 go floating over the mobs as you fight them, then when you start seeing numbers in the 20's or 30's you think you are doing awesome damage.

And, when you start the game with weapons from Korthos Island and finally pick up random generated loot with multiple procs so that you start seeing 2 or 3 or more floaty numbers per hit -- then you're in high cotton as we used to say, you're really doing serious damage now.

So these players are not intentionally gimping themselves. They are just following on with the things they are learning about the game as they discover them. The 4 fighter 2 monk gives 5 additional feats. Not a stupid thing. The shield and bastard sword gives glancing blows. Not a stupid thing.

Does it all work together to create an uber build. Not by forum standards. But in that player's experience? Probably so.

And, to address your question directly, it is probable that the vast majority of players do not research their builds before they start them. Most players don't visit the forums so anything found here is entirely lost to them. I regularly run into players, many with epic characters, who either don't know the wiki exists or who don't use it even though they do know.

There are a lot of people whose fun is tied into discovering for them self. We can bad mouth them all that we want. But the truth is that they really aren't hurting anyone.

Did you complete the quest -- clearly you did, multiple times. So what harm was done?

Could their build be better? Sure. But they probably don't want someone they don't know being critical of it and offering advice. How did you feel when I started by saying that I couldn't take you seriously because you're running an arcane archer? Did it make you a bit upset, wanting to defend your build?

Leave the players alone. They'll eventually figure things out. And until they do, as long as the group is completing the quest it isn't really causing harm.

*sigh*

Again with the ranger hate. If you've ever built one CORRECTLY, you'd see they're not so bad as people think, and it's mostly because they've seen too many new players enter the game, make pure 20 AA rangers that have horrible builds that pumped wis and dex and neglected str and con. I'm the opposite, and I regularly see 45-70ish damage per shot (depending on favored enemies, etc) and upwards of 150-250+ on crits with my current build at level 17, using the right bow for the right situation. And yes, when surrounded or the situation merits it, I do put away my bow and favor my scimitars.

Is it as effective as a tempest? Probably not, but I ENJOY the build and I've been commented on frequently that I surprised people by my damage, and I have the advantage of being ranged and staying out of AoE's and harmful situations. I'm self-sufficient, I help my teammates, and I pull my weight in groups. Besides of which, I made him a pure 20 ranger because he's going to stay at cap and farm and enjoy epic levels so that I can readily test ranger builds once the enhancement pass eventually comes out, meanwhile TRing my caster a few more times to complete his build.

Defending my build? Of course. Is it a legitimate build that, while not top tier dps, still functions correctly and pulls its weight in a group? Yes. Is my build self-sufficient and able to help others? Yes. And that's the difference between my build and a rogue doublestrike bastard sword/shield build that really is a waste of a slot because it neither pulls its weight nor deals dps higher than a healbot cleric nor is self-sufficient. His party slot could have easily gone to any other player and it would have been more useful to the party.

It also irritates me that this rogue didn't learn from what he was told, because as of level 16, somebody would have told him about his build. That he kept going either shows a gleeful innocence or a willful ignorance. This tells me that more experienced players like ourselves need to be more helpful to the community.

But back on topic, there really needs to be more warnings and such on the paths and character generation screen that helps new players. The paths themselves either need to be removed or changed to a common, cookie-cutter build that has been proven to work and is newbie-friendly.

[Beethoven]

All i can say is that if you don't understand how a build works, you don't know for certain that it doesn't work.

Yeah, except the way the OP tells the story the players goal was dps on a rogue/monk/ftr splash. There really isn't a lot that needs to be understood. Monks have the fastest twf speed. Rogues get SA on main- and off-hand attacks. There is no way to get anywhere close to the dps of a 'wraps build on a monk/rog using S&B.

Now, if the goal would have been some odd tank build who wants to utilize thief/acrobat for showtime and knockdown immunity, UMD and trap skills from rogue, monk for extra feats and S&B fighter for PRR I sort of could buy the OP maybe didn't understand the build (not that I'd blame him since I could think of many ways to build a better tank too).

No, people just use those players as justification when trying to push their agenda

No offense, but isn't that what you just did too? Odd/gimp builds are nothing new and neither are posts ridiculing or critizing them. We had them in 2008 and we have them now. Nothing changed in this regard.

What easy button? The only thing I can really think of as easy buttons in regards to building and leveling is 30 point ship resists, which is 10 points above what we used to use (House P buffs / Twelve pots). Then again, you really didn't need more than 20 points back then. Spell- and trap damage on elite is significantly higher now than it used to be, also running elite is far more common now than it was back then. So, those 30 points ship resists actually do less for you than the 20 points did back then. Needless to say, not every new player has access to ship of high enough level.

It was actually roughly around late 2008/early 2009 we had the real easy buttons for new players. We only had 1! pre out, Tempest. With the Exploiter we got a build that could self heal with the best of them (Heal scrolls / Cure crit), had enough AC to ignore melee mobs and most bosses (there was no glancing blow damage), evasion to ignore anything that had a reflex save and could self buff FoM and with that resist most CC. Later the superority of the Exploiter was challenged by the Monster build and finally we had the age of Barbarians were tanking was defined as high HP / high DPs.

For the longest time we had roughly four (or less) melee builds which were clearly superior to everything else and innumerous posts comparing them (or fans of one build attacking those of another). What changed is that we have far more options to build now and it is significantly harder (if not impossible) to easily come up with a handful of melee builds that are clearly superior in every situation (similar to, say, the dps / hate tank barbarians we had which were top notch dps build /and/ tank of choice in numerous raids). It didn't make things easier for new players but more complicated.

The same held true on the arcane side of things. Back in the day Spell Penetration did not matter and sorcerer could hit high enough DCs to make Insta-kills and CC land with relative ease. They also had faster casting speed and more SP and Charisma as casting stat (which made it easier to get a viable UMD). You wanted to be top notch arcane, sorcerer was a no brainer. Wizard (as far as top of their class goes) was degraded to arcane trickster builds (Wizard 14/2 Rogue) combining arcane casting with highest possible trap skills (due to wizards usually having higher Int than rogues).

You want an easy button? That was it right there. Back then a new player came to the forum asking what's the best arcane build and they got two answers: Sorcerer or Arcane Trickster depending on if they want to be pure caster or also have rogue skills (at the cost of less SP and slower casting speed). Ask the question today and you get people argue about the benefits of three out of four savant builds, discuss (at length) the perks and weakness of Archmages vs Palemaster, continue argue about socerer vs wizards, then argue some more about all of the above in combination with various epic destinies and do it all over again with various twists. Finally someone will show up to also throw into the mix that it doesn't matter because the whole game has become way too easy.

Sorry, but that is not easier. You could dominate the game just fine back in the day with a sorcerer or, say, Exploiter build. What's different is new players back then could ask a question and get a handful of definite answers. Today we have so many options that this is no longer the case. Then we wonder why new players end up confused and come up with "strange" builds.

Case in point, back in the day someone asked if S&B was viable and the answer was simply no. Today the answer would be, depends: it's viable for a tank /if/ you build for it; dps-wise you can get some nice damage /if/ you invest in the right Shield related feats, /if/ you invest into Two-Handed fighting, /if/ you pick a race that can boost Two-Handed Fighting and/or Power attack and/or weapon damage, and /if/ you wield a weapon actually benefiting from two-handed fighting while actually being held in one hand with a shield in the other (ie: bastard swords and dwarven axes). You can sacrifice some of the dps from above and still maintain viable dps (just not as nice). Also, monks and rogue can have top dps. I am not at all surprised that we some point then end up with a new player rolling a monk/rogue splash wielding a shortsword and buckler and thinks he is top dps.

[Therigar]

*sigh*

Again with the ranger hate.

OMG! Did you just make my point for me. Tell me you didn't. Please.

Because just how you responded is precisely how other players feel when you're being critical of their characters.

Let me put it together for you without the wall of text that was in between:

I could almost have taken your post and this thread seriously if you hadn't said you are running an arcane archer that does awesome DPS.
...
How did you feel when I started by saying that I couldn't take you seriously because you're running an arcane archer? Did it make you a bit upset, wanting to defend your build?

You do see what I did there. Please tell me you do.

[Zenako]

The other part of this whole issue is context. How one compares to one's peers that they are playing with. I recall many times over the years when we had a mostly guild run (back in Gianthold was new and scary days) and did not have a full crew. We would often pug out the last slot or two just because, and it would give us a chance to meet some new blood sometimes.

Met many a decent player that way. On occasion however would meet up with some players who had very different perspectives on how good their characters were. Met one guy who was convinced he was the best thing since sliced bread on his melee dude. Ok, lets see what happens. Back then W/P was king. Most of us in guild had them on our TWF's. We decided to run Tor for the Dragon loot and to flag a couple of characters. As we start moving thru the quest, this guy, with his self inflated opinion (I usually lead in kill count in every quest I run...blah blah blah), was having trouble keeping up as we slashed and burned (actually holds from the Sorcs and W/P in a couple seconds to death) our way thru. The Dude started asking how we were all cheating, and there was no way we were killing those giants that fast without it!

Well this goes to context. In all likelihood he had never run with well geared out characters who knew the ins and outs of the game system/mechanics as well as we all did. So what he considered top flight dps (within his frame of reference) was now merely a footnote in how fast we could kill mobs back then. (if W/P or W/E still worked that way, it would boggle the minds of current melees who never had the chance to see full bore killing machines tear thru packs of mobs like locusts on grain field!)

So this leads to the consideration of what is gimp. If you are still the most effective player in your circle, then you are the best of your circle. When you step outside of that context, it becomes another question, since other groups or players have likely established other norms of what is good or not so good.

[Missing_Minds]

Some builds are "bad" because the player is a returning player.
Cap used to be 10, then 12, then 16, then 20. (did I get my caps correct? I think I did.) Each time through the "flavor of the month" changed. Some of the horrible builds now were pretty good back in the day. Some (note that I did say SOME) of such builds out there could be a reminat of that.

Some bad builds happen because the player was not paying attention when they leveled up. I have lost track of how many "Turbine please put in a respec system" I have seen on the boards due to people not paying attention when talking to a trainer. While we have a system now, it does not mean the player has the funds to "fix" their mistake. Normally associated with being too tired or drunk. (those were the two major ones.)

Obviously, some are due to people just not carring, having too much ego, or trying their best to make a worthless character.

Lastly is the type of player I refuse to get upset with once I have a clue. Children playing the game that don't understand the synergies. I call those an "oh well" and hope they have fun.

[BurnerD]

It's simple.

If you are the leader of the PUG you can decide what builds to accept.

If you join a pug then it's not your decision... If you don't like it bow out and find a group more to your liking.

I find funny builds and delusional players highly entertaining. After 6 years I'm not in a rush to get anything done so I like variety

The exception would be elite raids at or under level or epic elite stuff, but if I'm not the leader I won't complain in those situations either....

[Zenako]

It's simple.

I find funny builds and delusional players highly entertaining. After 6 years I'm not in a rush to get anything done so I like variety

Yup, beating a quest with a motley crew of mutts can be highly rewarding and fun. Running a quest when the outcome is not pre-ordained restores some spice to the process. Much like all the old naked TS runs. Victory was not at all guaranteed in those. (albeit likely given the number of chests to pop!)

[Whesper]

What easy button? The only thing I can really think of as easy buttons in regards to building and leveling is 30 point ship resists, which is 10 points above what we used to use (House P buffs / Twelve pots). Then again, you really didn't need more than 20 points back then. Spell- and trap damage on elite is significantly higher now than it used to be, also running elite is far more common now than it was back then. So, those 30 points ship resists actually do less for you than the 20 points did back then. Needless to say, not every new player has access to ship of high enough level.

It was actually roughly around late 2008/early 2009 we had the real easy buttons for new players. We only had 1! pre out, Tempest. With the Exploiter we got a build that could self heal with the best of them (Heal scrolls / Cure crit), had enough AC to ignore melee mobs and most bosses (there was no glancing blow damage), evasion to ignore anything that had a reflex save and could self buff FoM and with that resist most CC. Later the superority of the Exploiter was challenged by the Monster build and finally we had the age of Barbarians were tanking was defined as high HP / high DPs.

For the longest time we had roughly four (or less) melee builds which were clearly superior to everything else and innumerous posts comparing them (or fans of one build attacking those of another). What changed is that we have far more options to build now and it is significantly harder (if not impossible) to easily come up with a handful of melee builds that are clearly superior in every situation (similar to, say, the dps / hate tank barbarians we had which were top notch dps build /and/ tank of choice in numerous raids). It didn't make things easier for new players but more complicated.

The same held true on the arcane side of things. Back in the day Spell Penetration did not matter and sorcerer could hit high enough DCs to make Insta-kills and CC land with relative ease. They also had faster casting speed and more SP and Charisma as casting stat (which made it easier to get a viable UMD). You wanted to be top notch arcane, sorcerer was a no brainer. Wizard (as far as top of their class goes) was degraded to arcane trickster builds (Wizard 14/2 Rogue) combining arcane casting with highest possible trap skills (due to wizards usually having higher Int than rogues).

You want an easy button? That was it right there. Back then a new player came to the forum asking what's the best arcane build and they got two answers: Sorcerer or Arcane Trickster depending on if they want to be pure caster or also have rogue skills (at the cost of less SP and slower casting speed). Ask the question today and you get people argue about the benefits of three out of four savant builds, discuss (at length) the perks and weakness of Archmages vs Palemaster, continue argue about socerer vs wizards, then argue some more about all of the above in combination with various epic destinies and do it all over again with various twists. Finally someone will show up to also throw into the mix that it doesn't matter because the whole game has become way too easy.

Sorry, but that is not easier. You could dominate the game just fine back in the day with a sorcerer or, say, Exploiter build. What's different is new players back then could ask a question and get a handful of definite answers. Today we have so many options that this is no longer the case. Then we wonder why new players end up confused and come up with "strange" builds.

Case in point, back in the day someone asked if S&B was viable and the answer was simply no. Today the answer would be, depends: it's viable for a tank /if/ you build for it; dps-wise you can get some nice damage /if/ you invest in the right Shield related feats, /if/ you invest into Two-Handed fighting, /if/ you pick a race that can boost Two-Handed Fighting and/or Power attack and/or weapon damage, and /if/ you wield a weapon actually benefiting from two-handed fighting while actually being held in one hand with a shield in the other (ie: bastard swords and dwarven axes). You can sacrifice some of the dps from above and still maintain viable dps (just not as nice). Also, monks and rogue can have top dps. I am not at all surprised that we some point then end up with a new player rolling a monk/rogue splash wielding a shortsword and buckler and thinks he is top dps.

Thank you for a quick course of DDO history. Would +2 you if I knew how it works and/or cared about forum reputation.


To answer the OP's question- those builds come from reasoning, but not having enough information and/or gameplay experience to know that some things just do(n't) go well together. That same way we get to see 10wiz/10FvS, 17fighter/3cleric and 8 sorc/6bard/6 cleric builds running around.

[mobrien316]

Any player that is fun to group with is welcome in any of my groups. I don't care how many or how few HP they have, and I don't care what their class split is.

If they die, so what? I've died a bunch in this game, and I'm positive I will die again in the future.

[HastyPudding]

OMG! Did you just make my point for me. Tell me you didn't. Please.

Because just how you responded is precisely how other players feel when you're being critical of their characters.

Let me put it together for you without the wall of text that was in between:

I could almost have taken your post and this thread seriously if you hadn't said you are running an arcane archer that does awesome DPS.
...
How did you feel when I started by saying that I couldn't take you seriously because you're running an arcane archer? Did it make you a bit upset, wanting to defend your build?

You do see what I did there. Please tell me you do.

Your point is noted and understood but otherwise invalid. An AA, while currently not top tier dps, is still a valid and legitimate build. A rogue/fighter/monk in medium armor with a bastard sword and small shield vying for both dps and PRR with doublestrike shield feats is, to say the least, not viable. Which build would you defend/side with if it was under attack, a TWF elf barbarian or a 6 con drow battle cleric specializing in throwing axes?

[EnjoyTheJourney]

It seems that some groups might not welcome my incredibly awesome elven 2 fighter, 2 artificer, 1 rogue, 2 wizard, 2 barbarian, 2 cleric, 2 sorcerer, 2 paladin, 2 druid, 2 bard, 1 monk, 1 FVS, and 2 ranger DEX-based melee build, with 6 CON, 6 STR, and all feats focused on improving swim, jump, and other non-combat skills. I'm guessing that my refusal to put any gear on this character and my refusal to carry any spell components or to use thieves tools might even be seen as poor choices on my part.

I'm very upset about this because, as I mentioned above, my character is truly awesome.

[Jasparion]

Now, if the goal would have been some odd tank build who wants to utilize thief/acrobat for showtime and knockdown immunity, UMD and trap skills from rogue, monk for extra feats and S&B fighter for PRR I sort of could buy the OP maybe didn't understand the build (not that I'd blame him since I could think of many ways to build a better tank too).

Parasitic Breastplate and Arrondi could be an interesting combo for tanking hard fights.

That said, I just loved the visual. Halfling jumping around randomly. Like Yoda in The Phantom Menace? Or was it the next one?

[Therigar]

Your point is noted and understood but otherwise invalid.

You need to go back now and read my original post to the thread. Only this time you need to read the stuff in the wall of text.

My point isn't about defending any build. It is about respecting people and understanding that if it doesn't cause the group to fail -- and, honestly, it takes a lot for just 1 character to cause a whole group to fail -- then what's the big deal.

I'll take the axe throwing 6 CON cleric AND the TWF elf barbarian over the great DPS AA that has to criticize people for their builds.

Oh, and the bastard sword and board rogue can come too. I"m sure we'll all have fun, laugh at our misfortune and still find a way to complete the quest.

[FengXian]

Gotta say I feel somehow related to this topic. There's some odd build hate, some AA hate, some "the game is too easy"...well I'm playing a 12 sorc/6 ranger/2 monk atm. Since I got a few people asking about the build I might even post it one of these days^^

I first rolled it because I needed sorc PL, and I had an xp-stone to use somewhere, plus little time to play. I wanted to TR soon after 20, just after giving Shiradi a try. Surprisingly, the build proved actually decent in end game, and I still had not enough time to tr fast enough, so I kept it for another while.

Now it has good melee with tenser's, 50ish str, extended rage/haste (sometimes last longer than un-extended pure caster's), displacement, pally active PL, ram's, GTWF and other stuff...
Full AA line with IPS etc...Water Savant II with good caster level from PrE, equip and EDs, and decent spell power on ice spells. Evasion with 40+ reflex depending on ED, heal scrolls, DD/teleport. DoTs+melee+manyshot make it great vs bosses, Ice storm+stay frosty+IPS is nice vs trash.
Plus depending on ED it can have some CC+ranged damage from shiradi, great aoe damage from Draconic, EiN from GMoF or Unbridled Fury Many Shot + other dps goodies from FotW.

I've almost never had problems being accepted in pugs (which surprised me a bit at first since I'm aware that the build is veery questionable at first glance). I'm having lots of fun since I can play as melee, ranged and/or sorc depending on ED and situation, and I don't have to play a forum build (nothing against taking builds from forums but some people tend to think that those are the only possible builds; some people just copy/paste them w/o knowing how to play them, which is even worse.)

Another point is that the game IS much easier than it used to be...which can be annoying, but is also an opportunity to try out fun, still viable builds that wouldn't be possible in a harder end game, probably. I've learned not to judge the book from the cover

I also don't have problems with people who actually try something very original and unusual, even if it turns into a failure, provided they are good players. A build can have a bad moment in a certain level range, or can just turn out to be a failed experiment that still has to reach 20 somehow in order to TR etc...personally I love the challenge of rolling something out of ordinary AND make it work ofc. If it doesn't work, tho, I think one should have the decency of not being a burden to the party: run Hard or EH if you see you can't contribute enough on Elite or EE