Sex and DDO

[azrael4h]

While we are at it, I'd like if sex can be relevant to charachters: maybe some sex related ehnancements would be fine. It can be hard to balance things but this could add some flavor. I'm thinking about something like; men can have higher jump or swim, women can have better tumble.

This is risky, because then you'll have some men and women getting P'O'ed and blasting Turbine for sexism, nihilism, and whatever other ism they can come up with.

I forget what indie game I was following awhile back, but the dev (the only one) mentioned that males and females would have stat adjustments based on gender. The resulting thread was not pretty, even by the standards (such as there are) of the internet. The dev backed off, and the two were made equal.

My own game, the only differences are in diplomacy checks for various NPCs. Some are more inclined to deal with men, others women. Some prefer their own or some few other races over some others. That's about as much risk as I'd take, and then I'd expect to get blasted for sexism and racism even then. With no statistical differences between the genders, and none of the races being closely correlated to a real world "race".

[Theolin]

Using a name change token, I noticed the name of my toon was XXXXX(M), so my theory is that sex is hardcoded in the game database, and it's not a separate column.

It's just a guess, but maybe changing such a structure is not easy, if ever possible.

....

If I recall this was asked for once upon a time in a galaxy far far away ....

And if I my memory recalls correctly, gender is tied up in the "uniqueness" of your particular character & a name change is much easier than a sex change just like in real life, not impossible, just very difficult. .... or it might actually be impossible due to the way it was coded.

[yawumpus]

This is risky, because then you'll have some men and women getting P'O'ed and blasting Turbine for sexism, nihilism, and whatever other ism they can come up with.

I forget what indie game I was following awhile back, but the dev (the only one) mentioned that males and females would have stat adjustments based on gender. The resulting thread was not pretty, even by the standards (such as there are) of the internet. The dev backed off, and the two were made equal.

My own game, the only differences are in diplomacy checks for various NPCs. Some are more inclined to deal with men, others women. Some prefer their own or some few other races over some others. That's about as much risk as I'd take, and then I'd expect to get blasted for sexism and racism even then. With no statistical differences between the genders, and none of the races being closely correlated to a real world "race".

Stat-based sexism has been out of D&D since at least 3.0, but AD&D (first ed) had different limits on stats based on race and sex. If girls and women were playing AD&D (1e) they were certainly hiding it. They didn't need to hide it by 3.0, and I really don't know the case for AD&D (second ed) for either lady players or characters. I'm pretty sure the whole concept is long gone and not coming back.

While I would hardly call the Elder Scrolls games "indie" and Oblivion has separate stats for genders (and non-obvious differences in human races: willpower differences in imperials, for instance). Skyrim removed the obvious differences, but left in a stealth buff for female characters: you can get a combat bonus against the opposite sex as well as a "hot babe" discount at male merchants (note that the rules are equal, you can get the same "hot guy" bonus at female merchants. The catch is that both combatants and merchants tend toward male (although both are pretty effective in Whitehold).

[azrael4h]

Stat-based sexism has been out of D&D since at least 3.0, but AD&D (first ed) had different limits on stats based on race and sex. If girls and women were playing AD&D (1e) they were certainly hiding it. They didn't need to hide it by 3.0, and I really don't know the case for AD&D (second ed) for either lady players or characters. I'm pretty sure the whole concept is long gone and not coming back.

I would hardly call the Elder Scrolls games "indie" and Oblivion has separate stats for genders (and non-obvious differences in human races: willpower differences in imperials, for instance). Skyrim removed the obvious differences, but left in a stealth buff for female characters: you can get a combat bonus against the opposite sex as well as a "hot babe" discount at male merchants (note that the rules are equal, you can get the same "hot guy" bonus at female merchants. The catch is that both combatants and merchants tend toward male (although both are pretty effective in Whitehold).

I'm well aware of AD&D having gender differences. I grew up playing that stuff, and actually just started a game on Champions of Krynn for the heck of it. My second video game I ever beat, and first cRPG I ever beat. Women did play it back then, though rare as it is today. Not really much more than men, though, they tended to hide the fact they played DnD back then too. Still has a social stigma of sorts. Not worshiping the devil during the after Sunday School sessions (my first DM was a Sunday School Teacher ) stigma, but still a stigma.

This is irrelevant, because the post I quoted asked specifically for gender-specific enhancements that give one gender or another some mechanical boost. What PnP D&D did in one edition or another doesn't matter, especially since DDO is only vaguely based on the 3.5e ruleset nowadays. If many of the core concepts hadn't become industry standard for these types of games, I doubt it would even be recognizable.

While Elder Scrolls may not be indie, they have the QA to make it look like it. Or worse, most indie games I've played are of higher quality. More of a console company, then. With no QA whatsoever. I still remember Daggerfall well, and don't buy from Bethseda anymore.

That's also irrelevant, as the game I'm remembering WAS an indie cRPG. Too long ago, or too many games I've followed over the years. Heck, it could have been a forum post on Gamedev now that I think about it, and not any one title in specific.

[goodspeed]

ya I very much doubt any company would want to step into the battleground that is anything to do with sex. Mainly the women area.

Scoff all you want but theirs a reason why any smart man pays absolutely no heed to any women in a workplace assuming their is actually a women there with the men in any setting. It's just a flippn powder kegg waiting to blow out into some suit.

I've no idea why, but anything to do with women orchestrated in any way just gives rise to this sheer hatred and avarice. I mean look at that breastfeeding photo. A simple photo starts a **** maelstrom!

And you can't even go the guy sex route. Cause then all of a sudden a flippn flock of these extremists come out screaming about children lol. Or morals, or how in some weird, odd, off the wall explanation that would even confound Charles Manson himself way, it's really all about them.


No anything to do with pointing toward sex is just a profit loss. I'm sure even now, those crazed fanatics are scouring the web, the newspapers, magazines, for anything they can spearhead in protest.

[yawumpus]

While Elder Scrolls may not be indie, they have the QA to make it look like it. Or worse, most indie games I've played are of higher quality. More of a console company, then. With no QA whatsoever. I still remember Daggerfall well, and don't buy from Bethseda anymore.

I shouldn't have implied that you were talking about Bethesda (and hopefully fixed it enough), it seems that they could get away with that type of thing. Of course, however bad the bugs were, the class generation scheme was easily the worst part of Oblivion, and starting values were comically pointless (gender differences only influenced starting values)*. Yes, they are buggy (I don't want to think what that means for Elder Scrolls MMO players).

Consoles are buggy disasters? Oh my PS2, how have you fallen? Oh 2600, could you even draw the screen if there was a bug in the entire cartridge? Looks like I picked a good console generation to skip (actually I'm a computer gamer at heart, thus the username).

I still think that early-mid eighties AD&D was pretty much all male. Not that my bunch would have known otherwise.

*Oblivion classes make DDO paths seemed positively optimal. Not only that, a good oblivion build looks almost completely opposite of what one looks like. You want a mage? Plenty of skills in armor, weapons, and stealth (and absolutely no magic). Want a warrior, plenty of skills in spells, skills in whatever weapon you won't be using. Still, I think Oblivion lead me to DDO almost as much as AD&D did (I doubt I'd still be here if it had something like WoW's or LOTRO's combat and travel systems.

[Keybreaker]

While we are at it, I'd like if sex can be relevant to charachters: maybe some sex related ehnancements would be fine. It can be hard to balance things but this could add some flavor. I'm thinking about something like; men can have higher jump or swim, women can have better tumble.

Bethesda's "Fallout 3" which seems to use the d20 system has feats (perks) called "Lady Killer" and "Black Widow." I actually find the image for Lady Killer creepy. Clearly Bethesda didn't think so.

[Morningfrost]

Stat-based sexism has been out of D&D since at least 3.0, but AD&D (first ed) had different limits on stats based on race and sex.

IIRC, 1st ed had strong buffs for drow females. Thay had more spells, move faster, and only females could be clerics.

I agree that stat-based sexism (like this term) is a risky way, that's way I was thinking about something not game breaking. I wouldn't allow female charachters to have higher wisdom, but skills could be a nice way to add flavor, especially if it costs APs. Higher haggle towards opposite sex vendors is also funny.