I want to make a TWF Human 32 point Paladin, but I'm not sure where to even start. I want to keep it relatively pure, maybe splash Rogue or Fighter, but... I don't know. Please help.
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Thread: Need help with a build
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11-20-2012, 06:54 PM #1Community Member
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Need help with a build
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11-20-2012, 09:04 PM #2Community Member
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http://ddowiki.com/page/Starting_a_Paladin <--- Have a read through that it should give you some ideas on your build
Good luck!
Stoner81.
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11-20-2012, 09:23 PM #3Build Constructionist
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Junts' guide to pallies hasn't been updated in a while, but it's still the definite source for pally info. Builds here if you're impatient.
Semi-retired Build Engineer. Everything was better back in our day. Get off my lawn.
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11-21-2012, 05:17 PM #4Community Member
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Where I would start is what it means to be a paladin.
1. You're not going to have the best melee DPS, even among non-rogues. Your DPS can still be very good, but it will never be the best comparing like to like.
2. On the other hand, your melee self-healing ceiling is the highest of every melee, and you also have very good survivability elements available to you.
These axioms inform your other choices. Consider your PrE:
-KotC is incremental (and unreliable) DPS. Why chase after that? Your DPS will go from very good but not the best to... very good but not the best.
-HotD takes point (2) above and cranks it, increasing self-healing and giving you an enormous survivability advantage in immunity to level drain.
-DoS takes point (2) and derives party benefit from it by making you a tank. It is somewhat hampered by requiring a feat on a feat-starved class and the relatively small fraction of content where tanks are useful.
Consider your race:
-Half-orc is the KotC of races. A little more DPS, so what? You're still in the same zone.
-By comparison, human further emphasizes your self-healing, gives you an extra feat and skill point, and even offers considerable and cheap DPS via Damage Boost. (Paladins are a lot more sensitive to expensive enhancements than other melees.)
Consider splashing:
-The capstone is pretty good, but in the end it's just DPS.
-A 2 monk splash gives you Evasion, multiplying the benefit of your good saves, and moar feats.
-A 2 fighter splash also gives you feats, but instead of Evasion you basically get Haste Boost, another considerable and cheap source of DPS.
-A 2 rogue splash gives you Evasion and Haste Boost, but no feats. You also get the potential of trap skills, but it's very difficult to swing that on a paladin's 2 skill points per level. I would stick with monk or fighter if you want to splash, especially on a 32 pointer.
-Anything deeper starts to compromise your spell slots, Cure Serious Wounds, and general paladin-ness.
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The other unusual thing about paladins is that their best DPS ability functions off of crit range instead of overall crit profile. This along with the feat crunch makes scimitar a more compelling choice than usual next to khopesh. You'll still get more out of the khopesh, of course, but it won't be as big a gap as other melees.
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11-22-2012, 08:47 AM #5Community Member
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Ack!
I keep trying to make a decent one in the DDO Character Generator, but I just can't do it! Ugh. I'm so lost right now.
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11-22-2012, 09:00 AM #6Build Constructionist
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It's tough to balance the stats on a 32-pt TWF pally, because you need high STR (for obvious reasons), base DEX 17 (for TWF feats), decent CON (again, for obvious reasons), and ideally high base CHA so you can pick up as much Divine Might as possible (CHA 20 for DM4). Add to that the feat shortage and it's not an easy build to make.
Semi-retired Build Engineer. Everything was better back in our day. Get off my lawn.
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11-22-2012, 09:44 AM #7Community Member
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Yeah
I mean, I can get +1 tomes at least, but +2 are way too expensive right now, so I could start with 16 dex, I know that much, but the rest... I don't know what the 'optimum' stats would be
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11-22-2012, 01:52 PM #8Build Constructionist
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Here's an example of a TWF pally 18 / rog 2 build:
Epic feats: Great Cleave & Overwhelming CriticalCode:Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02 DDO Character Planner Home Page Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female (18 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) Hit Points: 344 Spell Points: 270 BAB: 19\19\24\29\29 Fortitude: 19 Reflex: 17 Will: 10 Starting Feat/Enhancement Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats (32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) Strength 16 24 Dexterity 15 17 Constitution 14 16 Intelligence 8 8 Wisdom 8 8 Charisma 15 18 Tomes Used +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11 +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 12 +2 Tome of Strength used at level 20 +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20 +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 20 Starting Feat/Enhancement Base Skills Modified Skills Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) Balance 6 14 Bluff 2 4 Concentration 2 3 Diplomacy 2 4 Disable Device 3 3 Haggle 6 8 Heal -1 -1 Hide 2 3 Intimidate 2 4 Jump 6 10 Listen -1 -1 Move Silently 2 3 Open Lock 6 7 Perform n/a n/a Repair -1 -1 Search 3 3 Spot 3 3 Swim 3 7 Tumble 3 4 Use Magic Device 6 27 Level 1 (Rogue) Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting Level 2 (Paladin) Level 3 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh Level 4 (Paladin) Ability Raise: STR Level 5 (Paladin) Level 6 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Precision (swap for Power Attack before lvl 18) Level 7 (Paladin) Level 8 (Rogue) Ability Raise: STR Level 9 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons Level 10 (Paladin) Level 11 (Paladin) Level 12 (Paladin) Ability Raise: STR Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting Level 13 (Paladin) Level 14 (Paladin) Level 15 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting Level 16 (Paladin) Ability Raise: STR Level 17 (Paladin) Level 18 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Cleave Level 19 (Paladin) Level 20 (Paladin) Ability Raise: STR Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III Enhancement: Human Versatility I Enhancement: Human Versatility II Enhancement: Human Versatility III Enhancement: Human Versatility IV Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III Enhancement: Racial Toughness I Enhancement: Racial Toughness II Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Rogue splash adds UMD (which boosts your self-sufficiency), Evasion (which boosts your survivability), and 1D6+3 sneak atk (which partially offsets the lost DPS from not having the capstone). Drawbacks inc. losing the capstone (useful for both extra DPS & DR-breaking) and having lower AC & PRR in light armor than med or heavy (if you wear the latter, you lose Evasion).
I backloaded the tomes as much as I could, but you still need the +2 DEX for ITWF/GTWF, +1 CHA for Divine Might II, and +3 CHA for DM3.
Besides Cleave/GC/OC, other feat options include: Quik+Max(+maybe Emp Heal) for more self-heals; Shield Mastery & ISM for tanking and to unlock DoS; or Extend for longer Zeal.Semi-retired Build Engineer. Everything was better back in our day. Get off my lawn.
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11-22-2012, 02:28 PM #9Community Member
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What are the benefits of splashing Rogue over Fighter or Monk?
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11-22-2012, 02:53 PM #10Build Constructionist
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Rogue 2 gets you UMD, Evasion, Haste Boost I (which will stack w/human Dmg Boost from Versatility), 1d6+3 SA, and W&S Mastery I (+30% from Cure wands & Heal scrolls - very handy for someone trying to be self-sufficient). Ftr 2 gets you 2 feats, Haste Boost I, +1 STR enh, and free tower shield prof (tho that only helps if you plan to S&B tank). Monk 2 gets you 2 feats, Evasion, +3 to all saves, and lets you use handwraps (if wearing robes), which are usually better than khopeshes when fighting crit-immune mobs (e.g., undead, constructs) due to the higher atk speed & full-STR offhand dmg.
Overall I like monk splash best, but they all have their pros & cons; it all depends on what your final goals are.Semi-retired Build Engineer. Everything was better back in our day. Get off my lawn.
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11-22-2012, 04:22 PM #11Community Member
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I'd probably splash Monk, then. Become God of the Saves. Hm. I think I might try to splash monk. Do you still get access to the monk stances when splashing?
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11-22-2012, 05:01 PM #12Build Constructionist
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Access to monk stances & strikes requires being centered: i.e., no armor, no shield, no more than light encumbrance, and no non-ki weapons. So a khopesh-wielding monk / pally in light armor couldn't use stances (but would still benefit from Evasion); but one using handwraps & robes could.
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11-22-2012, 05:41 PM #13Community Member
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Hm. Well, food for thought. I wouldn't mind being centered for strength checks and such. I think I'll try splashing Monk, I just need to figure out how and when...
Also, what's the difference between starting with 16 str 15 dex vs. 15 str 16 dex?Last edited by RamzaAion; 11-22-2012 at 07:13 PM.
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11-22-2012, 10:49 PM #14Build Constructionist
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Well, apart from the fact most melee builds try to max out their STR as much as possible, Overwhelming Critical req's base STR 23: so base 16 + 5 lvl-ups + 2 tome = 23. Although in hindsight since my build doesn't take OC until lvl 24, base 15 + 6 lvl-ups + 2 tome would suffice too. Or you could start STR 16 DEX 15 and, if you really can't afford a + 2 DEX tome by then, put your lvl 12 stat pt into DEX and take a +1 DEX tome instead (base 15 + 1 lvl-up + 1 tome). But I've noticed since unbound +3 stat tomes became available, the Auction House prices for +2s has come down considerably. Because honestly, if you're flush with plat, why would you settle for a mere +2?
Basically a lot of how we optimize a build depends on what resources you have available and what presumptions you make about gear etc. which will be acquired. One advantage to starting base DEX 16 is you can take a +1 tome at lvl 3, whereas +2s can't be taken until lvl 7; which means you could take ITWF sooner at lvl 6 if you specced your build properly.Semi-retired Build Engineer. Everything was better back in our day. Get off my lawn.
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11-22-2012, 11:16 PM #15Community Member
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Are there any specific levels I should be taking Monk at? And any specific Monk bonus feats?
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11-23-2012, 12:58 PM #16Build Constructionist
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In general, I would either front-load the monk lvls to get the extra feats, skill pts, & Evasion ASAP; or backload them to work on your pally lvls sooner.
Originally Posted by RamzaAion
In your case, since it sounds like you don't want to rely on a +2 DEX tome, we could do something like this:
epic feats: Great Cleave & Overwhelming CriticalCode:Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02 DDO Character Planner Home Page Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female (18 Paladin \ 2 Monk) Hit Points: 343 Spell Points: 230 BAB: 19\19\24\29\29 Fortitude: 25 Reflex: 20 Will: 16 Starting Feat/Enhancement Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats (32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) Strength 15 23 Dexterity 16 17 Constitution 14 16 Intelligence 8 8 Wisdom 8 8 Charisma 15 18 Tomes Used +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 5 +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 12 +2 Tome of Strength used at level 20 +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20 +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 20 Level 1 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting Level 2 (Paladin) Level 3 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery Level 4 (Paladin) Ability Raise: STR Level 5 (Paladin) Level 6 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting Level 7 (Monk) Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness Level 8 (Monk) Ability Raise: STR Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack Level 9 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons Level 10 (Paladin) Level 11 (Paladin) Level 12 (Paladin) Ability Raise: STR Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting Level 13 (Paladin) Level 14 (Paladin) Level 15 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery Level 16 (Paladin) Ability Raise: STR Level 17 (Paladin) Level 18 (Paladin) Feat: (Selected) Cleave Level 19 (Paladin) Level 20 (Paladin) Ability Raise: STR Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III Enhancement: Human Versatility I Enhancement: Human Versatility II Enhancement: Human Versatility III Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III Enhancement: Racial Toughness I Enhancement: Racial Toughness II Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III
A lot like the build I originally posted, but I took advantage of the two extra feats to add Shield Mastery & ISM, so this build could go DoS and S&B tank. Alternatively, I could use them to add Quik+Max to focus on self-heals and switch from DoS to KotC, but I'd need to rearrange the build significantly (can't just swap SM for a metamagic because pallies can't cast spells before lvl 4).Semi-retired Build Engineer. Everything was better back in our day. Get off my lawn.
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11-23-2012, 01:07 PM #17Community Member
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Alright, that seems pretty solid. I think I'll plug that in the Character Generator, and mess around with it a bit. Thank you for your help, you've been wonderful. Originally Posted by unbongwah
