It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[Quetzacoala]

For better or for worse, I feel that people should be allowed to use their resources as they see fit.

[Drekisen]

For better or for worse, I feel that people should be allowed to use their resources as they see fit.

Exactly....if you don't like the way someone else plays that's what your squelch list is for.......oh that's right....your types are already full....oh well.....too bad...maybe spend more time on doing the proper work first...like making a suggestion instead to expand the amount of people you can squelch so you don't have to be bothered with mnemonic-holics.

Better luck next time.

[Sonos]

Exactly....if you don't like the way someone else plays that's what your squelch list is for.......oh that's right....your types are already full....oh well.....too bad...maybe spend more time on doing the proper work first...like making a suggestion instead to expand the amount of people you can squelch so you don't have to be bothered with mnemonic-holics.

Better luck next time.

Mnemonemon Doo doo! doo doo doo. Mnemonemon Doo doo! doo doo doo.

[Chai]

Exactly....if you don't like the way someone else plays that's what your squelch list is for.......oh that's right....your types are already full....oh well.....too bad...maybe spend more time on doing the proper work first...like making a suggestion instead to expand the amount of people you can squelch so you don't have to be bothered with mnemonic-holics.

Better luck next time.

This is the strawman argument right here. Trying to act like the issue is personal based on how one player thinks another player should play, is false. Wanting to preserve game balance has absolutely nothing to do with being bothered about how others play. It has to do with realizing that an unlimited supply of purchasable mana potions disrupts game balance, and this can go one of two ways.

1. Game balanced on not needing pots with limited supply of pots.
2. Game balanced on needing pots to win. (this is not an issue of absolute, but an issue of degree)

Since the most players proved that they will just gravitate to the easiest difficulty which wont require mana potions, Turbine went in and took care of that issue in the most recent endgame raid by allowing the boss to get rid of unused mana for you, in the most punitive fashion possible. Not going to use your mana enough to need to milk their cash cow? They are more than willing to unburden you of all that excess SP, then sell you more of it.

But Ill play your straw man game. If youre not so bothered by how others play, why not support pure melee having a heal spell they can use in an unlimited fashion (or say..a heal potion that hits for 150 before amp is calced sold in the store in stacks for the same price as mana pots)? Think this is absurd? This is far less powerful than casters having an unlimited supply of mana. Any one of my casters can still clear quests faster than any melee even if they had unpenalized limitless healing. This is my dog in this fight no one has an answer for. Every time I ask this question, people gloss right over it and post some lame accusation of reading comprehension failure or something. They fully well understand that theres nothing they can truthfully say about this scenario that will not support my stance on the issue regarding game balance. Theres a reason why they gloss over it. They were in the threads regarding giving melee some easier to get self healing waving their game balance flag around as justification for not allowing more sources of easy to get self healing. Yet they are more than willing to support endless mana supply. The forums are starting to smell like a waffle house again. When I point these direct contradictions out is usually when the hilarity ensues.

[MrkGrismer]

Since the most players proved that they will just gravitate to the easiest difficulty which wont require mana potions, Turbine went in and took care of that issue in the most recent endgame raid by allowing the boss to get rid of unused mana for you, in the most punitive fashion possible. Not going to use your mana enough to need to milk their cash cow? They are more than willing to unburden you of all that excess SP, then sell you more of it.

Speaking of Strawmen...

I was wrong about which dev said it but:

We're working really hard on this raid right now. There will be some changes, some of them you might not even hate.

But spell point damage stays. Its function is punitive: if you get zapped for spell point damage (and you have a mana bar), then you were clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time. Further, this damage is much, much higher on elite and hard. It's statted as "something skilled players will never get hit with". There's a pattern for people to learn and follow. This is raid content and it will require people to exhibit a certain level of skill to be successful.

Healers, on the other hand, will have the easiest time avoiding this damage altogether. We left plenty of rocks and other random phallic objects for you guys to hide behind. I expect casters and ranged dpsers to have a harder time with this.

Paladins and melee fvs will still be viable because there will be plenty of things for them to tank and beat down, besides Lolth, and the raid will require multiple tanks. It's just one of these tanks should probably not have a mana bar if he or she likes blue pixels on their screen.

Actually, I would consider the dedicated person "tanking" Lolth's beams for the raid to be the off-tank. I would actually expect monks and rogues (or rogue splashes) to be the best tanks for it, because of evasion and all the elemental damage. There are also a bunch of other tricks to mitigate her gorgeous eyes, but the important part is, that if the other 11 people in the raid are on top of their game, they can all have blue bars and nobody will get hit by spell point drain even once.

The potions from the store argument is silly and invalid. We sell HP potions in the store too, should our raid bosses stop hitting you in the HP? I mean, what's up with that? Next thing you know, they might even kill you.

Your post indicates you have not played the raid. This is a feedback thread.

For the last time, spell point damage in this raid is not meant to suck TP right out of your account. It's punitive mechanic (yes, we know) specifically made to punish mistakes. A healer, caster, divine caster, ranged dps, melee dps, etc etc = a skilled player will not get hit by this. We don't expect you to stand there next to the tank and just take it in the face over and over again. If you're doing this, and then chug store point potions, you're doing this wrong. This is a tool we use, in this particular instance, to let you know that you're standing in the wrong place and you should probably move. I will not stoop to explain the basics of playing an action MMO here. I presume that a player who has leveled a 20 character has minimal situational awareness to "not stand in the fire" during boss fights. And in this case, the fire is burning your spell points. When you stand in the spell point fire, you make a designer do a double facepalm and then stab a kitten with a spork. Please think of the sporks*.

In closing, the signal to noise ratio so far has been abysmal, I see very little actionable feedback. To summarize the thread:

1. I/We/Everybody/Some Players hate escort quests
2. Spell point damage really?
3. I/We/Everybody/Some Players hate mazes
4. There was one person who wondered about something being WAI, and it was.
5. Too annoying/Not enough challenge

We now return you to the regular scheduled broadcasting.

* No actual kittens/sporks are being stabbed/harmed here at Turbine, do not try this at home.

Maybe in the next raid we can fight a giant straw man.

[Ape_Man]

maybe in the next raid we can fight a giant straw man.

+1

[stainer]

Speaking of Strawmen...

I was wrong about which dev said it but:







Maybe in the next raid we can fight a giant straw man.

Quoting an actual dev to refute his argument isn't going to sit well.

[Gkar]

Quoting an actual dev to refute his argument isn't going to sit well.

Well we don't want actual facts to get in the way of a multi page rant do we?

[stainer]

Well we don't want actual facts to get in the way of a multi page rant do we?

Is that a strawman? I get confused.

[Miow]

Why are we all walking around with bananas in our arses? If feels awkward and frankly it kinda hurts.

(Pulls out banana and walks away.)

[pHo3nix]

For better or for worse, I feel that people should be allowed to use their resources as they see fit.

Indeed, freedom first of all, i think we all agree here.

But he isn't asking people to stop buying or drinking them, he's just asking to change a game mechanic so that people will be free to drink a pot in desperate moments but won't be able to buy completions, cheapening every kind of achievement.

Saying that turbine will never change this cause they would lose money doesn't make the OP argument less valid, it just shows how deep we went into a p2w game..

[Chaos000]

But he isn't asking people to stop buying or drinking them, he's just asking to change a game mechanic so that people will be free to drink a pot in desperate moments but won't be able to buy completions, cheapening every kind of achievement.

Saying that turbine will never change this cause they would lose money doesn't make the OP argument less valid, it just shows how deep we went into a p2w game..

it's exactly what happened to scrolls, wands, and clickies. They balanced it out to have longer cooldowns. If they were to add a couple seconds before anyone can drink another potion that would effectively change the game environment. I was annoyed with the changes to leap of faith of limiting the # and having to wait 3 seconds before using it.

Either way everyone is going to be effected. I guarantee that a timer on mana pots will effectively add a timer on ALL potions curse, poison, mana, silver flame... putting a timer on all potions is a lot easier to implement than putting a timer only one particular type of potion.

hope you're happy.

[Qhualor]

it just shows how deep we went into a p2w game..

/agree

and also, looking over the many pages, one of the biggest reasons why people are against this is because they dont want Turbine to lose money. i find that hard to believe as a good reason why there should be no changes to mana potions when most of the threads on the forums are about whines, gripes and problems. saying they dont want Turbine to lose money which supports the game suggests they are happy with their p2w ways and like their easy buttons, afraid that a change would cause them to "work harder".

for the record, i am against mana usage timers. i am for less mana potions obtained. with all the spell regens and clickies and sp pool and ways to increase sp pool and so on. we should be able to make our sp last between shrines without having to drink pots. in the case of raids where it appears that win=pots, it takes a little time, but eventually we figure them out to the point where we can seriously decrease, if at all, pot drinking. increased challenge to Shroud and LOB are 2 good examples.

[Vint]

Saying that turbine will never change this cause they would lose money doesn't make the OP argument less valid, it just shows how deep we went into a p2w game..

I am by no means on the Chai bandwagon, but the majority has spoken that they want easy buttons and shortcuts to victory. (I am not one of them BTW). Turbine is giving us what we ask for.

Look at it this way:

I feel that anyone that cant solo WW elite on any level 7 character (no twink gear), should have their IP banned because they bring down the quality of the game. Turbine would possibly lose money because this person is not here and there would be one less person to hit your LFM, but would you honestly want this "gimp" in your party? So we out a test that a person can’t level to 8 until they solo WW elite.

Would everyone agree with this? If you don’t want to have people rely on P2W tactics and only on skill then this should not be a problem. Or is this to constrictive and we should let everyone decide what is fun for themselves?

[illusion28]

I am by no means on the Chai bandwagon, but the majority has spoken that they want easy buttons and shortcuts to victory. (I am not one of them BTW). Turbine is giving us what we ask for.

Sorry but i disagree, mainly because I think you sound kind of high and might when saying:

I feel that anyone that cant solo WW elite on any level 7 character (no twink gear), should have their IP banned because they bring down the quality of the game.

I honestly think that sometimes we forget that we were that gimp, or made that many mistakes when starting to play (for those who didn't, i salute you and offer my apologies for assuming you started the game now knowing how to play). I truly believe that no one WANTS to rely on P2W tactics, but probably they haven't learn another way, or someone hasn't pointed that out to them.

A while ago I was with a sorc doing a GladeWatch Outpost Defense elite at level, and he was depleting his blue bar and chugging pots while covering the side entrance, and when I approached to heal him I noticed he was using Fireball to attack assassins, and those little creeps at lvl tend to evade most of ref. based attacks, so instead of treating him like a GIMPYOUCAN'TPLAYIDON'TWANTTOGROUPWITHYOUANYMORE, I pointed out that he should try to tone down his max or empower feats and use no save based spells, like scorching ray, given the fact that side entrance is narrow and pretty diff. for them to move out of the ray's AoA. After that he wasn't using pots anymore (just some CMW but that's just because i couldn't reach him).

We met in a PUG some weeks after and was even giving me tips in how to manage my sp :P Because he started reading and asking in forums and stuff.

To forget that some UBER PLAYERS once were gimped and noobs and all those labes some use now to qualify "not so good players"... makes me laugh really.

People don't want a P2W button, the idea of saying Turbine makes money is pointed to the OP, the fact that they, like someone said, will just start selling NO TIMER POTS!... and that'll be the end of the potion discussion.

Have a nice one

[Vint]

Sorry but i disagree, mainly because I think you sound kind of high and might when saying:

Thank you, you proved my point. I would never be obtuse enough to demand a skill test for people.

The point of that thread was to show that people should not push their "the only way to play and have fun" attitude on everyone else.

[illusion28]

Thank you, you proved my point. I would never be obtuse enough to demand a skill test for people.

The point of that thread was to show that people should not push their "the only way to play and have fun" attitude on everyone else.

**** ... SUCCESS!! hehe

Well done

[pHo3nix]

Thank you, you proved my point. I would never be obtuse enough to demand a skill test for people.

The point of that thread was to show that people should not push their "the only way to play and have fun" attitude on everyone else.

We all were noobs once, we got pwned in quests, learn new tactics and improved our skills, then we went in the same quests and crushed them. SP pots just let you crush quest even though you aren't ready, so you have no reason to improve your skills.

I think i used 6 major pots (the ones found in game) since i started playing, and they were all used in the same ToD run cause a friend desperately need the completion but the group was obviously not ready. I've never used 1 anymore..if people aren't ready they deserve to fail, no way they should be able to buy their completion.

[Sonos]

We all were noobs once, we got pwned in quests, learn new tactics and improved our skills, then we went in the same quests and crushed them. SP pots just let you crush quest even though you aren't ready, so you have no reason to improve your skills.

I think i used 6 major pots (the ones found in game) since i started playing, and they were all used in the same ToD run cause a friend desperately need the completion but the group was obviously not ready. I've never used 1 anymore..if people aren't ready they deserve to fail, no way they should be able to buy their completion.

I buy my way to completion with heal scrolls quite a bit while soloing. Even that is no one else's business.

Have you ever carried people that weren't ready to completion? By that same token, if I'm on a blue bar and some of those that weren't ready were soaking it up, and After 40-50 hours of my work week, I want to purchase some blue juice rather than recall out or sit in a corner and wait for potion timers to expire, that is none of anyone else's business. Or we almost finish a raid but the lagmonster killed half of the party and a little blue juice will save a wasted 30 mins. that's be our business too. Play YOUR Game[tm]

[mobrien316]

I think i used 6 major pots (the ones found in game) since i started playing,

You're my hero.