It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[Drekisen]

Ok thx for the advice, next time i'm going to play football i'll only jump on my left leg if the other team sucks, so the fact of hitting the ball will already be a challenge..

Your not even comparing apples to oranges...which are both fruits...your like comparing apples to pepperoni......they are very far removed apart aside from the fact they are both food.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

It is just high time the devs did this. I would suggest a one minute timer before a player can drink another mana pot. I do not have any problem with failing more quests because quite frankly if I have to drink mana pots to beat a quest I do not deserve to beat the quest. Failing quests just makes the victories that much more sweet and encourages higher quality game play. There are no mana pots in D&D.

This game is too easy. 4 or 5 years ago DDO was so much more difficult. If you the devs are opposed to this on the normal or hard difficulties at least consider it for the elite difficulty. Thanks for striving to improve the game play.

Or you could just choose to add those casters to your friends list with a note and not run with them.

There will always be players who need a crutch- you can live and let live, or you can complain to Turbine because the game is not exclusive enough for you. Turbine's going to side with "more players who buy TP for cheap wins", and the degree to which that effects you is largely up to you.

[pHo3nix]

Your not even comparing apples to oranges...which are both fruits...your like comparing apples to pepperoni......they are very far removed apart aside from the fact they are both food.

Well, you probably do not take sports/videogames as seriously as i do. If i'm playing i want to win using my skills or improve those skills to win. Seems a lot of people in here just want to win without doing anything except paying: if you find it fun good for you, i hope for you they will put everything ( from completionist to epic items) in the DDO store so you can just buy them and "win" without even trying to play

Anyway i'm done here, people cannot grasp simple concepts(blindfold was an exaggeration, playing with added weights to slow myself down is a decent example you can get? ) and just continue repeating the same thing again and again.

[Diroctive]

Though I didn't read all 11 pages of the thread, the DDO Store pots wouldn't have a timer on them...

[Aashrym]

I agree with cool downs on SP pots, based on the amount of SP regained, and with better SP/time efficiency on higher SP potions.


It's not how other players play that concerns me. It's how they play when they do end up in the same group I'm in. It's good and all to say that caster deserves to have fun and play how he or she wants but if i wanted to pike a quest while someone else decides to join a group simply for the fact they wanted an audience while they solo it I would look for that in the LFM comments.


I join groups to contribute to the group success and that becomes more difficult when someone blatantly bypasses a built in restriction on SP limitations with such resources and even tho that 1 person is enjoying playing how he or she likes to play he or she is could be restricting the enjoyment of how others like to play; up to 5 others unless they just wanted to pike a completion.


I don't think it's realistic to expect me to drop groups when I see that happen and don't want to play that way. That means I'm forced to start over on a group and the quest and that will also impact my enjoyment of the game.


I also don't see the huge negative impact on healers. If they cannot blow through SP pots that means they will save on those resources simply for that restriction. SP potions should not be a requirement for healing or completions in the first place.


I don't see rampant SP abuse most of the time regardless and I've seen pot chuggers who still aren't making a difference because they simply don't have the ability to effectively use the SP they are adding to themselves. It's those other times that rub me the wrong way and I think short timer would negatively impact very few.


SP potions can easily create a game imbalance because content becomes built around it's usage or not. Built around it's usage and those have-not's are boned. Built around not needing SP pots and those have's are not challenged. That in itself is an indicator there should be some restrictions. The difference between having the resources and not having the resources is a caster with 2kSP vs a caster with 15kSP and that is an unreasonable gap to start with, in my opinion.


The fact players want to play with that advantage is not a reason to avoid looking at such a change. I'm sure players liked esos pre-nerf, wall of fire pre-nerf, TWF pre-nerf, glancing blows while moving pre-nerf, heavy armor and evasion pre-nerf, not breaking stealth/invis while opening door and pulling levers pre-nerf..... etc, etc.


With cheap SLA's, many ways to recover SP already, DoT's, cheaper casting costs, echoes of power, etc etc there is no such thing as being just an old man with a cane in this game. Worst case scenario I can scroll tensers while in lich or wraith form and use a decent weapon on the new AC/hit system and easily continue to contribute if I somehow manage to run out of SP. No one is just an old man with a cane in this game.


Timers make sense to me. Not necessarily long timers but enough to warrant more of a tactical choice in the decision making process and slow down what I see as something the development should see concerns with.

[Vint]

people cannot grasp simple concepts

1. Timer in place
2. Less people purchase
3. Large cash cow gone
4. People quit, can't P2W
5. Servers go nn.

Will try to think of a simpler way to put this and post it later if you cannot understand this.

[pHo3nix]

1. Timer in place
2. Less people purchase
3. Large cash cow gone
4. People quit, can't P2W
5. Servers go nn.

Will try to think of a simpler way to put this and post it later if you cannot understand this.

So you are telling me that this game is basing all its income on sp pots and other p2w items? A game that cannot live on people buying content, cosmetics and other non game-breaking things just deserve to fail, even if it's a great game like DDO.

[AbyssalMage]

Here is a simple answer OP and everyone who agrees with him.
1. Don't use them.
2. Limit your own uses.
3. Place in your LFM, "No pots!". Drop group if someone chugs one!
4. Quit being so childish. Not everyone should play the way you think it should be played.
5. Still haven't seen a quest you can't do with out pots.
6. Slow down and don't zerg! You don't need pots, if you don't zerg.
7. Wait around if you want a perfect group. I prefer to play.

P2W is an ignorant mans' argument. This implies there is something to "win." Never seen a trophy given by the players or Turbine. They do give recognition for screenshots and drawings and guild advancement.

Guild advancement is the closest thing you could argue is P2W. So that being said, "Do you chug guild elixirs for P2W?"

[Vint]

So you are telling me that this game is basing all its income on sp pots and other p2w items?

I would never say that. But I will let you tell the WB board of directors that you want to cut in on their profit margin. Let me know how that goes over.

[WruntJunior]

I am used to playing permadeath conditions, where one doesnt just get to twink themselves and buy scads of resources from the DDO store. Most of the game population does not play by those types of self imposed standard. The one self imposed standard I see alot of in game is "if it makes completing quests or acquiring loot take less time or effort, do it" and having stacks of mana potions in their inventory is part of that plan.

Guzzling mana potions to victory is no longer the exception but the rule. It is expected for healers to carry them so the other 10-11 people in raids dont have to "waste their time" with a quest failure due to semantic details such as having to learn to play the game whatsoever, which totally smacks of effort. This is why you do not believe my claim, because you are so used to playing in an environment where guzzling mana potions is the norm as such that you cant imagine that someone else can abstain from using them and run difficult content successfully. Turbine weened most of the population onto the P2W teet quite nicely, and slowly enough to where people will deny that this game is balanced on using mana potions liberally to compensate for having to learn to play.

This is why I find it hilarious when those grizzled old vets making fun of the rest of the PUG population threads come up. Many of the vets in this game arent better players and better metagamers than the newbies are. They just know where all the easy buttons are and the rest of the PUG population doesnt yet. They always try to make it sound like its a play quality disparity situation however, to cover up the fact that alot of that good loot their toons wear was actually acquired by mashing the known easy buttons harder and more often than random PUGs do, and then putting up a front that they had to learn how to play when dinosaurs ruled the earth.



Haste comes in clickies as well, and run speed is easier to build on a melee than a caster, as taking a barbarian or ranger level hurts the melee far less than it hurts the caster. His claim was that there is no power disparity because melee is sooooo easy to play. The rest of us know this simply is not the case, but of course people trying to disagree with me wont admit that so you try to hem abnd haw about specific details rather than coming right out and saying that anyone who thinks melee is as powerful as casters are off their rocker. Youre more than willing to accuse me of making outrageous claims, but when you hear stuff like this by someone who disagrees with me you wont call that out. Hilarious. I bet if I was the one trying to claim that melee were as powerful as casters, my entire fanclub® would have piled on by now and no one would remember what this thread is even about.

Actually, I'm just always suspicious of people who continuously make claims of their skill in the game while making it where almost no one can link your in-game characters to your forum account (I can't even tell what server you're on). In the time I've been on these forums, you've made a LOT of claims about what you do in-game and why stuff doesn't matter because it wouldn't affect you at all...yet you always hide your characters.

Like I said, in this instance, I find it impossible to play an arcane for a long time without eventually being in a scenario where a pot or two would change the outcome of a quest, and I find it unlikely that you would outright refuse to drink that one or two pots. I'd find it very hard to believe you could be at end-game for too long on an arcane without it happening, especially if you did any epic raiding pre-u14 (eLoB being a prime example...you could do that raid without potting, but it takes practice). As you said you're more into the permadeath playstyle, I guess that would answer why you don't have to use pots on an arcane (not due to lack of availability, but due to less playing of the end-game)...but in my experience, from playing casters in the end-game a lot, I find your claims hard to believe if you've done likewise. For clarification, I'm not talking about guzzling pots...I'm talking about just drinking one or two to make a victory that might not or even won't happen, happen.

As to your second point, haste clickies are less efficient than the haste spell as they only last 30 seconds (unless you have epic or GS haste clickies), and even then the AoE damage is still the largest reason for the leveling speed of a caster. A melee just doesn't have as easy a time zerging, as they can't quite just run until red alert then dropping an AoE DoT spell. Casters do have a clear advantage at leveling to epic levels...but once you get to the epic levels, melees can start to catch up a good bit (not to say they ever do, but I'd say melee and casters with ED are closer than they have been in the >3 years I've been playing).

In conclusion, if you hide behind the mask of online anonymity, where most people don't know even one of your toons, don't be surprised if no one believes you. The smart person would never believe anyone on the internet without some sort of proof, anyways...adding in that it's someone wearing a mask, it makes it worse. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong: I'm saying, between your conduct, claims, and anonymity, I have a really hard time believing anything you've claimed in 99% of these forums, especially when it's things to the effect of never having used a pot on an arcane.

The OP is asking for a cd on the sp pots, not for their removal, so if you only use 1 every now and then the change wouldn't affect you.

It would only affect those without the skill to manage their sp or those that want to buy their completion.

I got a sorcerer, i got a fvs, i got stacks of major, i never use them and i usually pugs. It's pretty simple really: the group is up for the challenge, you don't need the extra SP; the group sucks, you don't deserve to complete the quest, try again with better equipment/skills/tactics.

I dare-say, as someone who enjoys both this game and pugging, any change that makes fewer people interested in playing most definitely affects me. There are people who enjoy using SP pots just because they love nuking things, and there are people who use SP pots to help flatten the learning curve for healers and other casters at high levels. Especially in the case of healers, anything that makes learning to be a good healer that much harder negatively impacts most of the game. The community for this game is small enough, iirc, that a few bad hits can do a good bit of damage to it. People like the OP seem to want only the best players to keep playing...I like the game too much to see less and less funding come in to keep it running.

As a side-note, to the people who say this would relieve stress for new healers....most groups will blame the healers for their failures anyways, something that increases failure rates for content that people are already used to beating (and therefore causing even more stress and blame for the healers) will make a lot of learning healers decide to not be a healer anymore, or possibly not to play anymore (bad experiences with pugging Wruntjunior in the end-game on her first life as a FvS actually almost made me delete the character...and have helped in the long run with my decision to go arcane rather than divine). Remember that if you try to raise the game to a high level of difficulty, a lot of people and their money will get left behind. Losses like that are something that would permanently hurt DDO.

[Postumus]

Here is a simple answer OP and everyone who agrees with him.
1. Don't use them.

I recently started a static group that only uses found items - no AH, no DDO store. It's a blast.
And anyone can do it! Just choose not to use 'easy buttons' and monty haul stuff. It is that simple.


Of course the OP and like minded will try to take these arguments to the extreme with a 'why should I have to play naked!!' straw man rather than take responsibility for their own gaming experience. It makes so much more sense to ask the game developers to modify the game to force me (and everyone else) to play the way I say I want to play because I don't have enough self-control to do it on my on. :P

[Postumus]

In conclusion, if you hide behind the mask of online anonymity, where most people don't know even one of your toons, don't be surprised if no one believes you. The smart person would never believe anyone on the internet without some sort of proof, anyways...adding in that it's someone wearing a mask, it makes it worse. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong: I'm saying, between your conduct, claims, and anonymity, I have a really hard time believing anything you've claimed in 99% of these forums, especially when it's things to the effect of never having used a pot on an arcane.

Anonymous authority is where it's at bro!

[IronClan]

Yes they most certainly do.

I have seen this numerous times in borderline (or plain not upto snuff) groups and in initial runs of elite content.

Well by all means then it's an epidemic.

Just stop already, enjoy the game, if it's not enjoyable because of SP pots or class perk(s) such as speed increases; that you can't get on your favorite build; then perhaps it's time to find a game where your mind isn't making way too much out of silly minor nit piks and the trivial impact of other peoples playstyles.

(all you see around here any more are people complaining about what other people do/say/write/buy in the DDO store, even when in reality most of the things being made into a big deal around here are very minor or negligable, or happening not at all enough to create special case rules within the game for).

[IronClan]

I recently started a static group that only uses found items - no AH, no DDO store. It's a blast.
And anyone can do it! Just choose not to use 'easy buttons' and monty haul stuff. It is that simple.


Of course the OP and like minded will try to take these arguments to the extreme with a 'why should I have to play naked!!' straw man rather than take responsibility for their own gaming experience. It makes so much more sense to ask the game developers to modify the game to force me (and everyone else) to play the way I say I want to play because I don't have enough self-control to do it on my on. :P

^very much that

[Drekisen]

Well, you probably do not take sports/videogames as seriously as i do. If i'm playing i want to win using my skills or improve those skills to win. Seems a lot of people in here just want to win without doing anything except paying: if you find it fun good for you, i hope for you they will put everything ( from completionist to epic items) in the DDO store so you can just buy them and "win" without even trying to play

Hmmm...I hope for the sake of not making an a** out of yourself by assuming you were saying this in jest.....

Because aside from a couple +3 tomes I bought a long time ago....I have never purchased anything else besides content packs and extra storage space.....and maybe a couple Flawless Syberis shards.......if you honestly want to accuse me of paying to win then you should really get to know how I actually play.

Never bought potions, rest shrines, rez shrines....or any other silliness like that....I actually earn my levels the honest way. Any of those I have in my inventory are from loot pulls, easter egg hunts, or Djinni cakes.

And I have been playing almost 6 years........if I had to pay to win I would quit altogether.

[WruntJunior]

Anonymous authority is where it's at bro!

You mean I could have just said my entire long post in 7 words?!?

[mobrien316]

Ok thx for the advice, next time i'm going to play football i'll only jump on my left leg if the other team sucks, so the fact of hitting the ball will already be a challenge..

If you play on a professional football team and you only play against the local elementary school, and you find it too easy, would it make sense to complain that the elementary school team should get better, or would it make sense to find some more comparable competition?

If you want a challenge to your skill as a dungeon crawler in DDO, play permadeath. You are not gimping yourself by playing permadeath - you are simply avoiding the easy buttons, which many people seem to want.

If you want to have all your epic twink gear on your 35th-life character with unlimited plats because that's the way you want to play, that's fine. But don't complain the game is too easy, because you are choosing to play the easiest version. A harder, more challenging option exists; if you don't want to try it then the game isn't too easy, you are simply playing the easy version of a very challenging game and complaining about it.

[Ape_Man]

The level of bad strawman arguments in this thread have reached epic proportions.

For you occasional pot drinkers . . . would a 1/2/5 minute cooldown in an means stop you from continuing to play how you play now?

Has anyone actually claimed to have NEVER drank a pot on a caster? I haven't seen it.

[Drekisen]

So you are telling me that this game is basing all its income on sp pots and other p2w items? A game that cannot live on people buying content, cosmetics and other non game-breaking things just deserve to fail, even if it's a great game like DDO.

Don't blame the players and how they play........I say and I QUOTE as close as I can..."the devs originally stated the store would never have "game-breaking" items added to it."

Don't punish the people who get there mnemonics by actually playing......heck let the store ones have timers and the in-game ones not...from what they originally said stuff like mnemonics were never supposed to be added to the store.

And I still have to see anyone else comment on the fact that every other MMO with long cooldowns on potions also have constant passive regenration of health and magic.....so if they want to add timers on potions they better add that as well......oh but wait...then the game will be "too easy" again

[chrisdinus7]

<snip>

Like I said, in this instance, I find it impossible to play an arcane for a long time without eventually being in a scenario where a pot or two would change the outcome of a quest, and I find it unlikely that you would outright refuse to drink that one or two pots. I'd find it very hard to believe you could be at end-game for too long on an arcane without it happening, especially if you did any epic raiding pre-u14 (eLoB being a prime example...you could do that raid without potting, but it takes practice). As you said you're more into the permadeath playstyle, I guess that would answer why you don't have to use pots on an arcane (not due to lack of availability, but due to less playing of the end-game)...but in my experience, from playing casters in the end-game a lot, I find your claims hard to believe if you've done likewise. For clarification, I'm not talking about guzzling pots...I'm talking about just drinking one or two to make a victory that might not or even won't happen, happen.

<snip>

I more or less agree with you. I have seen pot chugging on the order of 2 or 3 times in 2+ years of play. I don't see the need to create rules to stop something that is either occurring quite rarely or is easily avoidable (as I have apparently avoided it without trying).

But, in Chai's defense, his comment was made in the context of leveling an arcane from 1 - 20. And in that context, it is quite possible to not need to drink a pot.