It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[Archangel666]

If 2 casters share the same build, same gear, same skill and the play for 10 minutes of spamming fireballs the caster that drinks 2 potions will do more damage in that 10 minutes. That's damage per unit of time.

1650 SP spent at 200 spell power on 10d6 (35 avg) damage for 3150 is less than 3675 from 5 more fireballs with 2 potions.

The finite spell points are a mechanic based on resting and it's technically damage per rest and that damage increases. It doesn't actually matter if the group is taking 5 minutes to the next rest, 10 minutes to the next rest, or 120 minutes until the next rest; that's time that goes by and if you make it the same for both casters the one with the SP potions is doing more damage over the same time unit.

If two players are doing nothing but spamming Fireballs then there is indeed a problem, but it has nothing to do with SP pots. It has to do with using inefficient spells.

While I understand that you feel there is an issue that needs to be resolved, I can't honestly say that I see it in game.

The number of players proportionally who play in such a way is rather tiny. The vast majority of players simply don't down pot after pot simply so that they can spam more fireballs (To use your example). They instead use pots sparingly if at all and only occasionally will they drink a few if lag spikes happen or mobs get lucky shots in and party wipes are close.

Changing SP pots when there isn't actually a need for it will simply irritate players and prevent those occasional party saves which will further irritate people. To compensate people might choose to simply drink pots as a "safety net" of sorts and not let themselves become low. This would actually lead to more pots being drank.

Or they might simply say "You know what? Sod this, there's other games I could be playing which are more fun."

[Drekisen]

First off, this is incredibly rude (even if not directed at me). What is that business about being punished? Some of us are trying to have a discussion and honestly this sort of post is rather inflamitory.

Second, go read my posts in here. Aside from a jab a smatt when he was being a bit too loquatious, I've tried hard to have a civil discussion with people. I've asked them why they think what they do and offered several different ideas to determine the expected outcomes. A few folks have actually discussed it. Many have simple held a hard line and called me names and lumped me in with anyone asking for a change.

When people have made good points I have acknowledged it and even given them positive rep for it, even though it was counter to my original premise. I appreciate a well thought out and polite post. Give me something new to think about and I'll acknowledge it (and +1 it if I can.)

When you continue to spew bile, venom and dogma and you sound no different than what you are accusing Matt and Chai of. The only difference is you are on the other side of the argument and you believe only you can be right.

You obviously took this personally......I stated first off I was not even talking to either of you personally...

I think some people especially in threads like this see themselves quoted and don't even fully read the reply and just attack.

I stated truth...not dogma....sorry not everything in life is a choice as much as you would like to think so.

I am on niether of these so called sides because they are both worthless.....you would just have me labeled that way because maybe you have a problem with neutrality.

Which the people who want this timer change go against.....they don't want to let people play how they want they want people to play how they want...sorry now I am not on the other side of the coin both of which are fully wrong for not supporting them...they are just wrong....period.

But I guess it's too much to ask for humans not to be that way...a species that has no problems with tormenting innocent animals to further "progress".....and declaring themselves some kind of superiors.

This thread should have been locked and put to rest about 40 pages ago.

[Drekisen]

One last thing I wanted to say and this will be my last reply here as I am sick of feeding this pig of a thread......

The people who so vigilinantly defend this change........you got to go through the game and learn to be resourceful through experience.......you DO NOT have the right to deny other players that learning experience.

Learn to guide.......and give up dictating.

Denying someone life's lessons does not keep them from harm or save them....it only makes them weaker and less capable of making their own solid decisions.

These are lessons we must learn on our own.....like it or not.......love is not "saving" that which you hold most dear......it's letting it go and hoping somehow it will reamin with you.

[cpito]

So the solution to eSoS should have been to tell players not to use it because it's over powered?

One of the big differences is the amount of time that has passed. eSoS proved to be "overpowered" very quickly so it was changed within a matter of weeks (a couple of months?) SP potions have been in the game for years and have been helping players for years.

Some of us are trying to have a discussion

next time I'll answer sooner.

When one side is only willing to discuss the points they feel comfortable with and will ignore all other points, then it's not exactly a discussion, it's a bunch of kids whining that "He's got 5000 sp and I've only got 2000! It's not fair!!"

You've already proven that even friendly posts will get ignored if you can't find a counterargument.

[smatt]

One of the big differences is the amount of time that has passed. eSoS proved to be "overpowered" very quickly so it was changed within a matter of weeks (a couple of months?) SP potions have been in the game for years and have been helping players for years.

This has been one of my issues with DDO development for years. Of course when creating a game like this, it's nto all that easy to know exactly how the gaming population will utilize items, abilities, etc. You can try, but as we all know gamers are pretty um resourceful..... They have let WAY over-powered things go on for too long, let the players become confortable with them, and then IF they do nerf them... Well we know what happens there as well. And this goes for quest shortcuts.... Ways to bypass large portions of quests etc. They leave them, knowingly I might add for 6 months, a year, even longer.... Then suddenl;y they fix them. It's NOT good develpoment... At least from my perspective. We could add many other things, a mentioned before 2WF with Wop rapiers, even more so crit rage barbs geared that way......

Now back on point, because this poitn certainly comes to play as far as I'm concerned. Back in Mod 4, I took the position here and in game that casters had it too easy. It was the ability to leave and re-enter quests, with shrines right outside., when they added the ability to re-enter, we saw a LOT of casters going solo. I DID have the opinion that SP needed to be limited, as casters at that point had become VERY powerful in comparison to melee, despite what some here might say. But now, I take the position that it's too late and will be too little to limit SP potions. It absolutely will no positive affect on the gaming population as a whole. It might make a few happy.... The problem is, it will make far more unhappy..... That is ALL that matters...

How can a person come to the conclusion that making more gamers unhappy than happy, will be good for the game? Does it really pan out that somehow this change will bring NEW players to the fold? Will the skill level of players in the next 6+ months suddenly jump up, and with that the game will attract more players? Really? That seems like some kind of reverse Twilight Zone fantasy to me. I see some people say the game is too easy, perhaps it is, at least for them as they are generally longtime vets, who know every in an out, knwo all the little details of combat, how to maximize dps, what spells to cast when, where and on what mobs, play with other very talented players etc. That knowledge and skill was built up over years... Not in a few months, and genrally not in a single years time, of course there are gamer super-geeks who are the outliers. This game does not survice on those types of players though, each and every demographic of player is important to the game, no doubt. But the game must be tuned to the largest possbile gaming population. Currently, I think that's where DDO is. With the range of difficulties, the various socalled easy buttons, etc. The DDO team has done what they needed to do in an attempt to widen the games appeal to the plaeyrs who dont' want to spend 2-3-4 years learning a game.

Going backwards in this respect would be a huge mistake for DDO. Whether it is now, the game each of us as individual like and or prefer or not. Because each of us, especially the long time Vet have our preferred timeframe of when DDO was the best. Those times are gone....

[Gunga]

One last thing I wanted to say and this will be my last reply here as I am sick of feeding this pig of a thread......

The people who so vigilinantly defend this change........you got to go through the game and learn to be resourceful through experience.......you DO NOT have the right to deny other players that learning experience.

Learn to guide.......and give up dictating.

Denying someone life's lessons does not keep them from harm or save them....it only makes them weaker and less capable of making their own solid decisions.

These are lessons we must learn on our own.....like it or not.......love is not "saving" that which you hold most dear......it's letting it go and hoping somehow it will reamin with you.

The old "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." trick? I buy my fish in bulk, usually during huge sales. Let's just say I'm not hungry.

[Sonos]

Context is missing... let me see if I can collect all the pieces...

First there was:



To which sonos changed to:

When 2 exact same builds in the exact same position with the exact same skill and the only difference is the heal scrolls there is a huge gain in effectiveness with the heal scrolls.



To which I responded:



I pushed him on his attempt to divert the topic. Heal scrolls are not at issue. Several times people have tried to say, "fine, lets limit everything". Even to such extremes and putting timers on melee attacks. It seems a bit far out there.

I did not see anywhere that he responded either, because, heal scrolls are not the issue. Several people did have a debater about it and that turned into healing amp, but came back around to sp potions because healing amp also affects heals from spell points, so it was all moot.

In short, no, not trolling. No, I don't think scrolls are an issue. Just trying to stop a false argument/diversion.

P.S. No, I don't think the game needs sp potions. But I do understand many of the merits of them. I've been convinced of new reasons for them in this thread and given +1 to people to gave good arguments for them.

I and quite a few others have brought up the subject of HP regeneration and how, while not apples to apples the same as SP regen, there is a commonality of the ability to survive longer=more dmg potential. To call this a false argument or diversion, I find quite derisive.

My point, and I have made it abundantly clear over the course of this tome, is that why should the caster be punished and not a melee when soloing(or what I call virtual soloing which happens in pugs a lot).

And I've used Crateos as an example and no one has disputed the fact, that while The Snitch is one of the easiest epics in the game, Crateos on a solo caster takes a **** ton of SP, and without any regen on said SP, that caster is more often than not, gonna die(I'm not talking EN or EH, the example is pre-U14). My melee on the other hand can live on and punch that thing until it's rubble.

Rather than just be dismissive, try and figure out where people are coming from first. Saying the argument is moot, just because you have added your own convenient factors into it, does not make it so.

And I will ask AGAIN, did you run eLOB pre-U14? Did you check to see how many heal scrolls were used, EVER?

[Archangel666]

The old "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." trick? I buy my fish in bulk, usually during huge sales. Let's just say I'm not hungry.

I prefer "Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life".

[Sonos]

Make x per shrine or x per quest.

Would that stop pre-drinking?

No need to get d-baggy. I'm an adult you don't have to ask stupid condescending questions to make a point.

It just so happens that the OP is not about that.

[TBot1234]

It is just the same 15-20 people posting most of which are people afraid the game will implement this. The reality is what I have heard in game is overwhelming positive in regards to reducing the usage of mana pots. People do not understand why mana pots are in game and used like they are albeit not used by everybody or what have yeah, but used by some nevertheless.

This is a bad decision made by Turbine, our dungeonmaster, to have mana pots in game used like they are well dungeonmasters rethink bad decisions all the time.

I buy SP pots from the store. I don't use them often; most of the time they sit there collecting dust. Once is a while, if I'm in a group and if I'm having fun I'll use one to help smooth out a rough part of a quest. If I don't like the group or don't care that much on that given day, I won't take a pot even if it's to avoid a wipe.

The reality is what I have heard in game and on forums is overwhelmingly positive in regards to the fact that this game should be fun. Taking away my ability to have some fun would only lessen my interest in paying for this game. And I suspect that there are many people like me with a similar point of view.

This thread has not convinced me that eliminating SP pots will make the game more fun for me, or better in any way.

Dungeon Master, everything is fine. No need to rethink about having SP pots in the game or in the store.

Sincerely,

Person 21

[Missing_Minds]

The old "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." trick? I buy my fish in bulk, usually during huge sales. Let's just say I'm not hungry.

You aren't hungry if you learn to ration your supply. If you squander it, you'll be the grasshopper and not the ant come winter.

Emm, I guess I can end this with an obligatory...

Winter is coming.

[Cordovan]

Remember to debate the topic, not each others' opinions on it. I've been hearing from some folks who want this thread closed, but have decided to keep it open at least a while longer to allow people to have a hopefully civilized and intelligent debate. If this devolves again into personal insults and fighting, we'll shut it down. I've tried to give people some leeway here to discuss this heated topic, but insults and personal attacks will not be tolerated, neither against Turbine nor each other.

[Torin17]

I buy SP pots from the store. I don't use them often; most of the time they sit there collecting dust. Once is a while, if I'm in a group and if I'm having fun I'll use one to help smooth out a rough part of a quest. If I don't like the group or don't care that much on that given day, I won't take a pot even if it's to avoid a wipe.

The reality is what I have heard in game and on forums is overwhelmingly positive in regards to the fact that this game should be fun. Taking away my ability to have some fun would only lessen my interest in paying for this game. And I suspect that there are many people like me with a similar point of view.

This thread has not convinced me that eliminating SP pots will make the game more fun for me, or better in any way.

Dungeon Master, everything is fine. No need to rethink about having SP pots in the game or in the store.

Sincerely,

Person 21

+1

I agree with Person 21. This is exactly how I use mana pots as well.

Tas

[smatt]

It is just the same 15-20 people posting most of which are people afraid the game will implement this. The reality is what I have heard in game is overwhelming positive in regards to reducing the usage of mana pots. People do not understand why mana pots are in game and used like they are albeit not used by everybody or what have yeah, but used by some nevertheless.

This is a bad decision made by Turbine, our dungeonmaster, to have mana pots in game used like they are well dungeonmasters rethink bad decisions all the time.

Hmm, I've heard just the opposite...... Even from people who rarely use them if at all. on the other side of the coin, the get ride of SP pots or put a timer on them posts are coming from the same 5 people.

And who's afraid? It would have little to no impact on my game... Other than on my TR's which is where I use most of the IN GAME looted or bought for plat pots I've ever used. It would slow the game down for people... Great idea!

What it would do is cause me to TR less... Oh wait that would also be less money for Turbine... Far less XP pots bought.

[Ape_Man]

Remember to debate the topic, not each others' opinions on it. I've been hearing from some folks who want this thread closed, but have decided to keep it open at least a while longer to allow people to have a hopefully civilized and intelligent debate. If this devolves again into personal insults and fighting, we'll shut it down. I've tried to give people some leeway here to discuss this heated topic, but insults and personal attacks will not be tolerated, neither against Turbine nor each other.

Curious, does Turbine have an opinion on this issue? Are they completely okay from a game balance perspective with casters having a unlimited blue-bar purchasable with TP or plat?

[Mubjon]

Curious, does Turbine have an opinion on this issue? Are they completely okay from a game balance perspective with casters having a unlimited blue-bar purchasable with TP or plat?

Why is that such a problem? They let melee's have an unlimited health bar purchasable with TP or plat. Why should casters be treated differently for their source of damage dealing?

[Gunga]

You aren't hungry if you learn to ration your supply. If you squander it, you'll be the grasshopper and not the ant come winter.

Emm, I guess I can end this with an obligatory...

Winter is coming.

Meh. If you plan for gorging there's no need to ration. Race to the end, Sunshine.

[samthedagger]

Stop the madness. Please, stop the madness!

[stainer]

Curious, does Turbine have an opinion on this issue? Are they completely okay from a game balance perspective with casters having a unlimited blue-bar purchasable with TP or plat?

Since they have been in game for quite a while, I am guessing they are good with it.

[Ape_Man]

Why is that such a problem? They let melee's have an unlimited health bar purchasable with TP or plat. Why should casters be treated differently for their source of damage dealing?

Not stating or implying it's a problem though I'm curious why Turbine will let this "debate" continue if the issue is 100% settled in their minds.