It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[cpito]

And still no one can answer the questions above. I'll take it as there is no answer, and we would rather waffle on about stats and percentages that mean nothing in relation to the real argument. Divert the topic to being about numbers rather than what it truly is. Elitist players wanting to make the 'noobs' suffer.

No, it's quite evident that a majority of the questions/statements that have a logical point are simply ignored. I tried to engage in friendly debate as requested, and have yet to get answers/responses. They have made it very clear that reality has no place at all in this discussion.

[Gunga]

You're hurting your own arguments the more you flex your e-peen here.

This is where he says that telling him that he's hurting his own argument is actually supporting his point of view.

[Rodasch]

Do you think the game requires heal scrolls? Is the sp pool of the healers not sufficient to keep the group healed between shrines without heal scrolls (or sp potions for that matter)?

Do you think the game requires sp potions? Chai adamantly asserts that they are not required for any content at any level, and I concur. Therefore, I'm not sure what the point of your above rebuttal is. Are you trolling or attempting to make a serious point?

[Aashrym]

And still no one can answer the questions above. I'll take it as there is no answer, and we would rather waffle on about stats and percentages that mean nothing in relation to the real argument. Divert the topic to being about numbers rather than what it truly is. Elitist players wanting to make the 'noobs' suffer.

I wasn't answering because the tone appears a bit adversarial and the comments appear to stem from assumptions behind player motivations instead of stating why the suggestion is bad.

Here goes tho..

So what 'benefit' would this have for all players ?

(I know you cannot answer that, since there isn't one).

The same benefit every other nerf produced. Better game balance. That's the point of any nerf.

Making claims of "It will make them better players" is stupid. Why on earth should anyone be 'required' to be a 'better player' ?

I like this question. I would have thought players would feel more satisfied with their own level of skill being better players but I suppose that is not necessarily true. I don't see the requirement to be a better player but I thought many of them might have enjoyed the game more having become better players.

What is it about other people enjoying the game their way that those who want this don't like ?

Why would you assume they would stop enjoying the game because of a minor change?

Which serves no purpose except to feed their own over-inflated egos so they can wander around the server kicking people from their groups for being 'noobs' and generally giving others a hard time.

My ego might be under-inflated.

Isn't being an orse in game enough ? - you have to do it on the forums as well ? and on top of all that do it in such a way as to attempt to engineer the game to be a PITA for others.

I didn't realize I was being an orse to you in game. Were you looking for some kind apology letter for something I did to you in game? Please let me know what I did to you in game that made me an orse and I will review those actions.

Okay, I doubt I will.
I also doubt I've been being an orse in game, tbh.

Go play something else, you have obviously played this game too much and it has no enjoyment left in it for you.

Why are you telling players how to have fun in the same post that you are suggesting players shouldn't tell you how to have fun?

And really lets be honest here, after playing for 5 or more YEARS, if you cannot 'crush' any dungeon (that you have played 1 million times over, with the best gear in the game) then you have a problem.

I have a problem. I cannot crush any dungeon in the game on any character without help. I find it easier to complete most of them on bards and casters, however.

[Ape_Man]

It is just the same 15-20 people posting most of which are people afraid the game will implement this. The reality is what I have heard in game is overwhelming positive in regards to reducing the usage of mana pots. People do not understand why mana pots are in game and used like they are albeit not used by everybody or what have yeah, but used by some nevertheless.

This is a bad decision made by Turbine, our dungeonmaster, to have mana pots in game used like they are well dungeonmasters rethink bad decisions all the time.

Dude, I'm all for this. But come on, it'll NEVER happen.

And two more pages of rehashed arguments with people who'll never change their minds, I have faith this reach 100 by the weekend.

[Aashrym]

If a potion restores 400 sp, and it takes you 30 seconds to spend 400 sp, and the potion has a 30 second timer on it, you've changed nothing. You can still spend all 400+ sp every 30 seconds, whether you drink the 5 potions up front and then dump 2000 sp or whether you drink one, then dump 400, then drink one then dump 400...it's the same damage dealt over time.

The only way a "timer" on potions would have any REAL impact on sustainability of sp-dumping is if the timer was longer than the time it takes to actually spend that much spell points in real application. Even then the impact would be minimal at best because players would figure out the ideal rhythm to drink potions in their dps twist to keep their sp from running out if they really wanted to "abuse" sp potions. (I put abuse in parenthesis because I don't feel it's actually abuse.)

I thought I clarified that was my intention with timers. The only point of them would be to control the rate the SP could be refilled better. I can call it something other than abuse too; I'll go with added advantage available with the extra SP.

Reread the argument in both of my previous posts regarding damage over time as the measure of content balance/difficulty and take a few moments to give it some objective consideration. Think hard about it and if you still disagree, come back and explain to me why you feel I'm not correct. Don't say "someone with more sp can cast more spells than someone with less sp", instead try really hard to address specifically the argument I presented and debunk it. I've explained why it's more viable than your theory about sp totals being the ultimate measure to consider, I'm waiting for your rebuttal to my arguments.

Killing mobs faster by dumping SP faster ends quests faster and the group succeeds easier. Having the SP cushion in the form of potions isn't a theory.

I have casters. I know that empowered maximized kills things faster than not empowered maximized and that it takes more SP for empowered maximized. I know I will kill more things with CoD, FoD, and Wail than if I have to stop casting CoD, FoD, and Wail because I have the SP to burn if I want it. When I know I can cast 10 more CoD's than I could normally have cast that lets me do it more often and kill things faster.

Can you honestly say you can kill things just as fast if you have to manage your SP? Go to chain of flames on a level appropriate character elite or epic elite with no potions and tell me how you kill things just as quickly as you can in any quest with a lot of shrines. You can easily see in game the impact of being able to keep casting regardless of SP limitations has.

Not if both of them can complete the task efficiently without needing to use that much sp. Also, There is no difference in effectiveness if there are sufficient volume of shrines (or enough sp regaining gear on these exact builds) to negate the "Need" for potions to retain effectiveness.

Also there is no difference in effectiveness if they both decide to play efficiently instead of wastefully.

As for total damage, it doesn't matter how much sp you have, once you've killed everything in the instance, your damage dealing is over. You only need to be sufficient to succeed.

Of course not. But it's not the choice to play efficiently that we're discussing or what it takes to succeed. It's the choice to blow through SP like a crack addict to make success easy instead of challenging.

It's only relevent if the same can't be accomplished by smarter play.

That's not true. Nerfs still happen regardless of whether or not success is possible through smarter play. The point of nerfing anything is because something makes it too easy to accomplish the same thing.

Basically if even one player in the world can complete the mission without potions with that "test" character within a balanced party, it means the potions make no difference to overall balance of the content, nor to "effectiveness" of the character in that content. What it does affect is the amount of skill, knowledge, strategy, coordination, and team-work required to succeed optimally. It allows for sloppier play, more relaxed play. It allows for people to succeed when they might not have, sure...but it doesn't prevent someone else from succeeding simply by virtue of not having potions.

Then why was displacement nerfed? We are capable of completing with it before or after the changes. Or any other nerf? Nerfs happen whether a person has the ability to succeed without the nerf or not. The nerf happens because it's considered overpowered in it's currently form. Smart play, or tactics, or using resources efficiently don't make something not overpowered.

Potions do not increase monster density in a quest, nor does it increase their total hit points or damage (but a cleric hireling does, along with being able to replenish your red bar too, saving you some other resources...so that hireling actually makes a bigger impact on your total damage output in that mission than literal infinite sp potions). Potions don't reduce recast timers either, so they don't impact your damage over time potential, they actually reduce it by allowing you to use more time killing individual monsters or smaller groups of monsters at a time (at higher cost) rather than optimizing kills per cast to preserve sp efficiency.

So, what I'm saying, is that sp potions don't make you more powerful in any of the ways that matter to content design. They make you less powerful by the choice to use them in lieu of tactics and efficiency as a route to success.

What they do is make it is easier, less stressful, and (for some) more fun.

Potion let you cast without concern for managing your SP and those monsters with no adjustments to density or hit points still become that much easier to heal oneself and kill them.

The old eSoS didn't increase monster hit points either, or the old haste, or the old displacement, or the old wail. They were nerfed anyway because the fact those hit points or monster density wasn't changed were irrelevant to the item under consideration, which is also true for SP potions.

When the threat level doesn't change but the offensive, defensive, and healing options are significantly increased for that character the challenge goes down. That is why nerfs happen.

If your illustrations boil down to we can do it without SP potions that doesn't demonstrate SP potions don't or should not need any changes or restrictions.

Unfortunately there have been other fun things nerfed too. That's a consideration but not a reason not to make changes.

[psi0nix]

I wasn't answering because the tone appears a bit adversarial and the comments appear to stem from assumptions behind player motivations instead of stating why the suggestion is bad.

Is this entire thread not based on an 'assumption' that changing game mechanics to appease the opinions of a few is the way to go .

Here goes tho..



The same benefit every other nerf produced. Better game balance. That's the point of any nerf.

Game balance can be achieved on your own, if you find content too easy it is very easy to make it challenging for you and a group. To base game balance on end game toons with the best gear running with the best players unbalances the game for everyone else.

Why, if it is easy for both sides to play the way they want would you want it changed so that only one particular play style is 'allowed' ?.


I like this question. I would have thought players would feel more satisfied with their own level of skill being better players but I suppose that is not necessarily true. I don't see the requirement to be a better player but I thought many of them might have enjoyed the game more having become better players.

Some players have 50+ hrs a week to play, some play a couple hrs a night, some play once a week, some less. The time it takes them to 'learn' the ins and outs of the game is less desireable the less time they have to play, those of us who can play many hours a week are able to work on being 'skilled' players, others just want to jump on a game and have a bit of a run around / bit of fun, and being unable to complete content detracts from that fun in a big way, again currently all forms of play are supported. Why change it to only one play style being supported.

Why would you assume they would stop enjoying the game because of a minor change?

It's not a matter of them no longer playing because of this one thing, it's more that over time things like this add to the frustration of challenging content, And I don't really consider this a 'minor' change, judging by the pages in this thread I would say that many people think it has potential to be a major change.

My ego might be under-inflated.



I didn't realize I was being an orse to you in game. Were you looking for some kind apology letter for something I did to you in game? Please let me know what I did to you in game that made me an orse and I will review those actions.

Okay, I doubt I will.
I also doubt I've been being an orse in game, tbh.

That particular comment was not directed at you, I should have been a bit clearer in who I was talking to there (in fact most of what I've said was in reply to chai but most other arguments in my post/s do apply to all in agreement with this.

Why are you telling players how to have fun in the same post that you are suggesting players shouldn't tell you how to have fun?

I'm certainly not telling others how to have fun, I was saying that if Perms-death holds no challenge anymore, and no content is hard enough, then perhaps the answer isn't to have things nerfed, it's to move along to other games instead of trying to ruin the enjoyment that others are still currently getting out of this game. (again this was directed at chai, again my bad for not being specific)

I have a problem. I cannot crush any dungeon in the game on any character without help. I find it easier to complete most of them on bards and casters, however.

Play style can have an impact here, there are many dungeons that I can 'zerg' on any toon without problems, but if I play a more 'dungeon crawling' type style then it is seemingly a lot more difficult to complete and help / party is preferred.

In red.

[Sonos]

Then why was displacement nerfed?
.

New AC system and Dodge implementations poohaps.

Unless someone has a rebuttal as to how the timer on SP pots will stop people from pre-drinking, I think the thread is a bust... still.

[Aashrym]

In red.

I just wanted to comment on the game balance can be achieve on our own.

So the solution to eSoS should have been to tell players not to use it because it's over powered?

Or the same with previous versions of spells like haste or wail?

That's just not practical answer to anything that could be stand to be changed.

[Aashrym]

New AC system and Dodge implementations poohaps.

Unless someone has a rebuttal as to how the timer on SP pots will stop people from pre-drinking, I think the thread is a bust... still.

But since that was a response to the argument that a nerf is not needed if we can complete with out it anyway it helps demonstrate the invalidity of some an argument.

The change was made because it was too easy to get defenses higher that planned. We didn't see players saying it didn't need to be nerfed because we can complete without it or players stating just don't cast it if you don't like it.

Players will still drink with timers, yes, but timers slow down their ability to refill as fast and continue casting at the same pace if the timer is set to the point where they can't refill faster than they can cast.

[Sonos]

The change was made because it was too easy to get defenses higher that planned. We didn't see players saying it didn't need to be nerfed because we can complete without it or players stating just don't cast it if you don't like it.

There was a major overhaul of said system. And there was a workaround, I know quite a few people that have 2-4 GS clickies made. And as to the following workaround:

Players will still drink with timers, yes, but timers slow down their ability to refill as fast and continue casting at the same pace if the timer is set to the point where they can't refill faster than they can cast.

After buffing, quaff. CC, quaff. Nuke, quaff. There will be less empty bars, more quaffs and more wasted SP. So now you have people that won't wait until it's necessary, they will maintain their blue bar throughout so as not to be intimidated and ridiculed by people that know the dungeons and raids like the back of their hand.

[redoubt]

I am not directly speaking to either of you.....ReDoubt I qouted you because it was the last thred I saw and it was easiest..I'm a slacker...sorry.....

but we are far past civil here......people going to war over things as trivial as virtual dogma is just blatantly obscene.

Sometimes I wish DDO would just nuke this game and people could wake up tomorrow and either by addiction or actual love of the game go to sign in and realize they can't log on because it is gone....

Perhaps then everyone in this community would realize how petty such a place as this is to hold so dear...much less to insult and argue over it.

If ever such a place existed to "live and let live"...it's the space of virtuosity.....where no harm can come except for it's creators who actually go against such.

Be careful for what you wish for in threads such as this when beliefs are held to such extreme...you are the true bearers of evil and dismay....and none shall love you ever again until you are adequately punished and humbled....and the threats of your false power are extinguished....even if for one moment you thought you were on the "right" side.

Balance is proper...right is merely the opposite of left...neither are wholely absolute....or correct.

Evil's greatest ally is convincing the the soul that still questions that those that are balanced are good...and that evil is essential to maintain proper balance because evil is the opposite of good.....this...is a farce.

The truly balanced need either absolute good or absolute evil...take your petty battles elsewhere.

First off, this is incredibly rude (even if not directed at me). What is that business about being punished? Some of us are trying to have a discussion and honestly this sort of post is rather inflamitory.

Second, go read my posts in here. Aside from a jab a smatt when he was being a bit too loquatious, I've tried hard to have a civil discussion with people. I've asked them why they think what they do and offered several different ideas to determine the expected outcomes. A few folks have actually discussed it. Many have simple held a hard line and called me names and lumped me in with anyone asking for a change.

When people have made good points I have acknowledged it and even given them positive rep for it, even though it was counter to my original premise. I appreciate a well thought out and polite post. Give me something new to think about and I'll acknowledge it (and +1 it if I can.)

When you continue to spew bile, venom and dogma and you sound no different than what you are accusing Matt and Chai of. The only difference is you are on the other side of the argument and you believe only you can be right.

[redoubt]

So what 'benefit' would this have for all players ?

Turbine won't have to rebalance the game.

Be less snarky and next time I'll answer sooner and maybe with more details, but you're kinda being mean.

[redoubt]

New AC system and Dodge implementations poohaps.

Unless someone has a rebuttal as to how the timer on SP pots will stop people from pre-drinking, I think the thread is a bust... still.

Make x per shrine or x per quest.

Would that stop pre-drinking?

[Rodasch]

I thought I clarified that was my intention with timers. The only point of them would be to control the rate the SP could be refilled better. I can call it something other than abuse too; I'll go with added advantage available with the extra SP.

I'm not seeing how this equates to anything productive. You're not illustrating why or how this would be true. Over an extended stretch of time, the limiting factor on how much you can refill is how much you can spend and how quickly, as once you're full, no amount of potion drinking will give you more sp or more power whatsoever.

Killing mobs faster by dumping SP faster ends quests faster and the group succeeds easier. Having the SP cushion in the form of potions isn't a theory.

So does killing mobs faster by killing them simultaneously to be more efficient and kill more with less. You can still throw every meta in the book at them and kill more monsters for less spell points (and in less time) than someone casting 3000 maximized, empowered, heightened lightning bolts just becuase they can and it makes them FEEL more powerful to see those big numbers over and over again.

But if I pull every monster in the quest in large groups and kill them with less than 10 spells total, and you pull all of them and kill them 2 at a time with said uber lightning bolts, who's really ending the quest faster and making the group succeed "easier"?

I have casters. I know that empowered maximized kills things faster than not empowered maximized and that it takes more SP for empowered maximized. I know I will kill more things with CoD, FoD, and Wail than if I have to stop casting CoD, FoD, and Wail because I have the SP to burn if I want it. When I know I can cast 10 more CoD's than I could normally have cast that lets me do it more often and kill things faster.

I have casters too, and I'm pretty darn good at playing them, if I do say so myself. But you're going after a strawman when you even bring up empowered maximized spells killing things faster, because I never said that you can't use those and still play efficiently....nor is it the case. So you're misdirecting.

Same goes for talking about not casting Instakills.

See, playing efficiently and intelligently isn't about shutting off metas and still pewpewing away with whatever single target spell isn't on cooldown, it means maximizing your kill power per unit of time while also maximizing your kill power per spell point at the same time. It's the skill set that allows people to learn to solo epics without using potions.

Can you honestly say you can kill things just as fast if you have to manage your SP? Go to chain of flames on a level appropriate character elite or epic elite with no potions and tell me how you kill things just as quickly as you can in any quest with a lot of shrines. You can easily see in game the impact of being able to keep casting regardless of SP limitations has.

Yes, I can honestly say I can kill things just as fast if i have to manage my SP. The reason is because the fastest ways to kill things overall just happen to also be pretty darn efficient for your sp.

Of course not. But it's not the choice to play efficiently that we're discussing or what it takes to succeed. It's the choice to blow through SP like a crack addict to make success easy instead of challenging.

On the contrary, we're discussing both...IN fact, you sort of forced the issue with your "comparison" scenario.

That's not true. Nerfs still happen regardless of whether or not success is possible through smarter play. The point of nerfing anything is because something makes it too easy to accomplish the same thing.

Then why was displacement nerfed? We are capable of completing with it before or after the changes. Or any other nerf? Nerfs happen whether a person has the ability to succeed without the nerf or not. The nerf happens because it's considered overpowered in it's currently form. Smart play, or tactics, or using resources efficiently don't make something not overpowered.

displacement was nerfed for the primary reason that with the changes to AC into the new system and the addition of the PRR/Dodge Chance mechanics, the addition of a +50% miss chance (which was as easy to obtain as being in one of the 99.9% of groups that contains an arcane caster or bard) on top of several melee class's inherently available dodge bonuses would lead to such an overpowered "god mode" that you would have characters who were 98-99% immune to physical attacks by monsters, which would completely remove virtually all potential for failure from the game as long as a caster keep displacement refreshed on them. By removing that capability and limiting casters to only displacing themselves it forces those melees to rely on clickies, which are really not sustainable.

Potion let you cast without concern for managing your SP and those monsters with no adjustments to density or hit points still become that much easier to heal oneself and kill them.

You just described cleric hirelings.

The old eSoS didn't increase monster hit points either, or the old haste, or the old displacement, or the old wail. They were nerfed anyway because the fact those hit points or monster density wasn't changed were irrelevant to the item under consideration, which is also true for SP potions.

The old eSoS? It increased damage per interval of time out of proportion to where the devs wanted it when combined with the (then new) artificer ability called Deadly Weapons. So, it was changed so that the Deadly Weapons spell (and other such effects) could remain. the eSoS was distorting the curve on those abilities beyond the acceptable limits and would have unduly punished every other weapon in the game if the effects were balanced around IT, rather than the other way around.

The old Haste increased damage per interval of time out of proportion to where the devs wanted it by increasing attack speed by too much. It made for to steep a curve on the power gain from increasing damage factors from weapons.

The old wail increased the total damage per interval of time out of proportion with the dev's vision of where it should by by allowing an unlimited number of hit points to be destroyed with one cast (no target limit, no hit point or hit die limit).

Noticing a running theme in the reasons all these things were nerfed? Damage per unit of time, or damage prevented/healed per unit of time.

My argument is holding consistent and strong as to what is the deciding factor in what's balanced and what's not, or what things are considered for content difficulty and relative power levels of various "things" in this game.

If you can show anywhere, how a spell point potion can increase the damage per unit of time of anyone above and beyond what they can actually achieve without the sp potions, then you would have a case for them being "nerfed", but you cannot, you can only show that they allow one to maintain that damage per unit of time for longer.

Nothing in this game that I know of has ever been nerfed for allowing a character to do nothing more than play longer without becoming dead weight for their party.

If you can name one, I'd be surprised.

When the threat level doesn't change but the offensive, defensive, and healing options are significantly increased for that character the challenge goes down. That is why nerfs happen.

No it's not, as I showed above. The true root cause of the vast majority of nerfs is what I said above. Challenge doesn't go down, the thing which deserves a nerf is out of the acceptable curve for the challenge and makes it appear to go down. That's an illusion of perspective. The challenge stays the same, the tools you bring change your ability to deal with the challenge...but not the challenge itself. When a tool is too powerful for the challenges it must be re-evaluated and either made to fit the challenge, or moved into a new challenge slot (by raising it's min level, for example)

If your illustrations boil down to we can do it without SP potions that doesn't demonstrate SP potions don't or should not need any changes or restrictions.

Actually, yes it does.

Everything that's been nerfed has done something that nothing else can match in regards to the damage dealt/prevented/healed per unit of time model, and was nerfed to bring it back in line with the rest of the game's design standard.

If I can generate the same or better damage per unit of time without sp potions that I can with them, there is zero justification for "nerfing" them, as all you are then doing is making emotional decisions to "punish" people unfairly out of personal aversion to their play-style, not any real mechanical balance justifications.

Unfortunately there have been other fun things nerfed too. That's a consideration but not a reason not to make changes.

How fun something is has no bearing on whether it gets nerfed, because "fun" isn't a value you can measure in any meaningful way for anyone other than yourself. All those decisions are based on numbers, not feelings.

Nothing was nerfed for being fun, and a few things were nerfed LESS than originally planned simply to avoid as much damage to "fun" after input from the community (see the instakill/wail nerf and how it started out). So, yes, other fun things have been nerfed, and in the glaring lack of reasons TO change it, it becomes the best reason NOT to change it.

Until you can show that it grossly distorts the game mechanically in some significant way (as can be shown with everything that's been nerfed in this game), you're not invalidating the "fun".

[redoubt]

Do you think the game requires sp potions? Chai adamantly asserts that they are not required for any content at any level, and I concur. Therefore, I'm not sure what the point of your above rebuttal is. Are you trolling or attempting to make a serious point?

Context is missing... let me see if I can collect all the pieces...

First there was:

In the context I was reading your previous post, yes the spell timers are a fallacy, because the point was SP potions refill SP faster than we can use it and while the timers can balance out specific spells they do not stop us from using the SP continuously because we simply use the SP on another spell simultaneously to the cool down and therefore still allowing for the SP to be spent at a faster rate.

For the timers on spells to impact the ability to spend SP we would need to be in a position where all spells are simultaneously on cool down. Since that isn't the case the cool down timers on spells do not actually impact the rate we can refill or spend SP.

When 2 exact same builds in the exact same position with the exact same skill and the only difference is the SP potions there is a huge gain in effectiveness with the potions. The timers are the same on both already on one will still run out of juice first and the other will still do more overall damage and maintain mana dump longer and refill faster.

This is similar to having multiple shrines and SP dumping and we know that this is effect. It's just as effective as having a lot of shrines vs not having a of shrines except the SP can be renewed faster than a shrine.

To which sonos changed to:

When 2 exact same builds in the exact same position with the exact same skill and the only difference is the heal scrolls there is a huge gain in effectiveness with the heal scrolls.

My response added in bold.

To which I responded:

Do you think the game requires heal scrolls? Is the sp pool of the healers not sufficient to keep the group healed between shrines without heal scrolls (or sp potions for that matter)?

I pushed him on his attempt to divert the topic. Heal scrolls are not at issue. Several times people have tried to say, "fine, lets limit everything". Even to such extremes and putting timers on melee attacks. It seems a bit far out there.

I did not see anywhere that he responded either, because, heal scrolls are not the issue. Several people did have a debater about it and that turned into healing amp, but came back around to sp potions because healing amp also affects heals from spell points, so it was all moot.

In short, no, not trolling. No, I don't think scrolls are an issue. Just trying to stop a false argument/diversion.

P.S. No, I don't think the game needs sp potions. But I do understand many of the merits of them. I've been convinced of new reasons for them in this thread and given +1 to people to gave good arguments for them.

[Rodasch]

Context is missing... let me see if I can collect all the pieces...

First there was:



To which sonos changed to:

When 2 exact same builds in the exact same position with the exact same skill and the only difference is the heal scrolls there is a huge gain in effectiveness with the heal scrolls.



To which I responded:



I pushed him on his attempt to divert the topic. Heal scrolls are not at issue. Several times people have tried to say, "fine, lets limit everything". Even to such extremes and putting timers on melee attacks. It seems a bit far out there.

I did not see anywhere that he responded either, because, heal scrolls are not the issue. Several people did have a debater about it and that turned into healing amp, but came back around to sp potions because healing amp also affects heals from spell points, so it was all moot.

In short, no, not trolling. No, I don't think scrolls are an issue. Just trying to stop a false argument/diversion.

P.S. No, I don't think the game needs sp potions. But I do understand many of the merits of them. I've been convinced of new reasons for them in this thread and given +1 to people to gave good arguments for them.

Fair enough. carry on

and +1 for the response.

[redoubt]

Fair enough. carry on

and +1 for the response.

Lol. I think we were posting at the same time. If your response in #1415 had already been up, I'd never of had to try to corral it to begin with. Your response was far better stated than mine was. (I hit you for a +1, and honestly, it was before I had scrolled down and seen this.)

[psi0nix]

Turbine won't have to rebalance the game.

Be less snarky and next time I'll answer sooner and maybe with more details, but you're kinda being mean.

Am I ? - I have posted based on 'in game' circumstances I have seen arise from people with certain attitudes.

What I think is mean, is trying to have the game altered to suit one type of player and **** everyone else, if they use the particular item / spell / store item / potion, whatever it happens to be these threads are always the same, they are not 'good' players by definition of those who call for nerfs and should be made to 'get better'.

Isn't it mean to force a playstyle on others ?

In the past much of the 'balancing' was done by turbine and done with the entire game community in mind, regardless of the success or failure of these actions it still has been done by those wanting to please the most amount of people possible at the same time.

In this case it's a small few wanting a change that is really irrelevant to a persons enjoyment of the game, if I during a quest chug 1000 majors, how does that detract from your particular game style ? - while not having that ability will detract from the gamestyle of someone who wishes to do so.

Now here is where the kill count issue comes into play, but again, if you are basing your success on personal kill count then maybe the PUG isn't the best to do it, but again even if that is the main problem you are able to group with people who will not 'out kill' you.

So really apart from arguing in depth game mechanics, (which do not really apply as this does not make it so you are invincible or able to cast any faster than normal, It simply gives you more in the tank, which means you last longer, a 'skilled' player will be able to last the quest length without doing so, so they are not about to start drinking pots just for the hell of it).

So it's really only the non-elite, perhaps not so experienced player who would be doing this 'chuggin', therefore this in effect only changes the game for those who are already having trouble, it's makes things worse for them.

And while I don't think this single thing would cause people to give up, (it might who knows), I do think that any change which will make life harder for less experienced players is a bad thing.

We cannot just cater to the 'best', it has to be accessable, everyone was a noob once, and many go on to become very good players and highly valuable members of good guilds.


*one does tend to get 'snarky' when it's the same thing (nerfs) being called for by the same people consistently. It's an ongoing theme here but it's a minority on here that make the 'noise' of many times their number in the hope that turbine will take notice. (the same who exploit something till there is nothing left then come here and demand it be fixed).

[Aashrym]

I'm not seeing how this equates to anything productive. You're not illustrating why or how this would be true. Over an extended stretch of time, the limiting factor on how much you can refill is how much you can spend and how quickly, as once you're full, no amount of potion drinking will give you more sp or more power whatsoever.



So does killing mobs faster by killing them simultaneously to be more efficient and kill more with less. You can still throw every meta in the book at them and kill more monsters for less spell points (and in less time) than someone casting 3000 maximized, empowered, heightened lightning bolts just becuase they can and it makes them FEEL more powerful to see those big numbers over and over again.

But if I pull every monster in the quest in large groups and kill them with less than 10 spells total, and you pull all of them and kill them 2 at a time with said uber lightning bolts, who's really ending the quest faster and making the group succeed "easier"?



I have casters too, and I'm pretty darn good at playing them, if I do say so myself. But you're going after a strawman when you even bring up empowered maximized spells killing things faster, because I never said that you can't use those and still play efficiently....nor is it the case. So you're misdirecting.

Same goes for talking about not casting Instakills.

See, playing efficiently and intelligently isn't about shutting off metas and still pewpewing away with whatever single target spell isn't on cooldown, it means maximizing your kill power per unit of time while also maximizing your kill power per spell point at the same time. It's the skill set that allows people to learn to solo epics without using potions.



Yes, I can honestly say I can kill things just as fast if i have to manage my SP. The reason is because the fastest ways to kill things overall just happen to also be pretty darn efficient for your sp.



On the contrary, we're discussing both...IN fact, you sort of forced the issue with your "comparison" scenario.



displacement was nerfed for the primary reason that with the changes to AC into the new system and the addition of the PRR/Dodge Chance mechanics, the addition of a +50% miss chance (which was as easy to obtain as being in one of the 99.9% of groups that contains an arcane caster or bard) on top of several melee class's inherently available dodge bonuses would lead to such an overpowered "god mode" that you would have characters who were 98-99% immune to physical attacks by monsters, which would completely remove virtually all potential for failure from the game as long as a caster keep displacement refreshed on them. By removing that capability and limiting casters to only displacing themselves it forces those melees to rely on clickies, which are really not sustainable.


You just described cleric hirelings.



The old eSoS? It increased damage per interval of time out of proportion to where the devs wanted it when combined with the (then new) artificer ability called Deadly Weapons. So, it was changed so that the Deadly Weapons spell (and other such effects) could remain. the eSoS was distorting the curve on those abilities beyond the acceptable limits and would have unduly punished every other weapon in the game if the effects were balanced around IT, rather than the other way around.

The old Haste increased damage per interval of time out of proportion to where the devs wanted it by increasing attack speed by too much. It made for to steep a curve on the power gain from increasing damage factors from weapons.

The old wail increased the total damage per interval of time out of proportion with the dev's vision of where it should by by allowing an unlimited number of hit points to be destroyed with one cast (no target limit, no hit point or hit die limit).

Noticing a running theme in the reasons all these things were nerfed? Damage per unit of time, or damage prevented/healed per unit of time.

My argument is holding consistent and strong as to what is the deciding factor in what's balanced and what's not, or what things are considered for content difficulty and relative power levels of various "things" in this game.

If you can show anywhere, how a spell point potion can increase the damage per unit of time of anyone above and beyond what they can actually achieve without the sp potions, then you would have a case for them being "nerfed", but you cannot, you can only show that they allow one to maintain that damage per unit of time for longer.

Nothing in this game that I know of has ever been nerfed for allowing a character to do nothing more than play longer without becoming dead weight for their party.

If you can name one, I'd be surprised.



No it's not, as I showed above. The true root cause of the vast majority of nerfs is what I said above. Challenge doesn't go down, the thing which deserves a nerf is out of the acceptable curve for the challenge and makes it appear to go down. That's an illusion of perspective. The challenge stays the same, the tools you bring change your ability to deal with the challenge...but not the challenge itself. When a tool is too powerful for the challenges it must be re-evaluated and either made to fit the challenge, or moved into a new challenge slot (by raising it's min level, for example)



Actually, yes it does.

Everything that's been nerfed has done something that nothing else can match in regards to the damage dealt/prevented/healed per unit of time model, and was nerfed to bring it back in line with the rest of the game's design standard.

If I can generate the same or better damage per unit of time without sp potions that I can with them, there is zero justification for "nerfing" them, as all you are then doing is making emotional decisions to "punish" people unfairly out of personal aversion to their play-style, not any real mechanical balance justifications.



How fun something is has no bearing on whether it gets nerfed, because "fun" isn't a value you can measure in any meaningful way for anyone other than yourself. All those decisions are based on numbers, not feelings.

Nothing was nerfed for being fun, and a few things were nerfed LESS than originally planned simply to avoid as much damage to "fun" after input from the community (see the instakill/wail nerf and how it started out). So, yes, other fun things have been nerfed, and in the glaring lack of reasons TO change it, it becomes the best reason NOT to change it.

Until you can show that it grossly distorts the game mechanically in some significant way (as can be shown with everything that's been nerfed in this game), you're not invalidating the "fun".

If 2 casters share the same build, same gear, same skill and the play for 10 minutes of spamming fireballs the caster that drinks 2 potions will do more damage in that 10 minutes. That's damage per unit of time.

1650 SP spent at 200 spell power on 10d6 (35 avg) damage for 3150 is less than 3675 from 5 more fireballs with 2 potions.

The finite spell points are a mechanic based on resting and it's technically damage per rest and that damage increases. It doesn't actually matter if the group is taking 5 minutes to the next rest, 10 minutes to the next rest, or 120 minutes until the next rest; that's time that goes by and if you make it the same for both casters the one with the SP potions is doing more damage over the same time unit.