It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[Aashrym]

This almost sound like a concession to accepting the use of pot timers.

My argument that pot users spend plat in the AH and $$ in the turbine store and the latter being enough reason for turbine to never add a timer is all the reason we need for there to never be one. I would venture to guess that I used over a million pots learning how to play my healer. I'm the poster child for economic generation for why timers are a bad idea.

A person can just farm them though. I pulled stacks before getting my bauble. The drop in rewards often and in quests that can be run in minutes they are farmable. That's why I think a reduction in drop rates would be an alternate suggestion.

A person doesn't need to buy them to find more than used and save them up to the point that stack saved up brings some extra smackdown with it.

[Grosbeak07]

A person can just farm them though. I pulled stacks before getting my bauble. The drop in rewards often and in quests that can be run in minutes they are farmable. That's why I think a reduction in drop rates would be an alternate suggestion.

A person doesn't need to buy them to find more than used and save them up to the point that stack saved up brings some extra smackdown with it.

I'm happy you enjoy to play the game this way.

Now please leave those of us who don't alone.

Only goal is to have Fun. If Player A and B are having fun, who cares how they get there. Right?

That is why this thread is getting more and more pointless and redundant as it goes along.

[Xynot2]

A person can just farm them though. I pulled stacks before getting my bauble. The drop in rewards often and in quests that can be run in minutes they are farmable. That's why I think a reduction in drop rates would be an alternate suggestion.

A person doesn't need to buy them to find more than used and save them up to the point that stack saved up brings some extra smackdown with it.

While I agree with you, how many newbs are going to be able to? How many people remain newbs and in order to be a competent healer, their style requires them to dink pots?

And FYI, I've never gotten a bauble. I've just adapted. And on every other toon, if I pull an SP pot and there isn't anything else I consider worthwhile, I pick the SP pot. I have quite a collection =). Which is why drop rate might not even be a viable solution. The learning curve in DDO is pretty steep and having the SP spam as a back up for that learning curve, helps.

I just dont think Turbine will cut that cash cow seeing as there are so many blue bars. In other words, I think hoping for an SP pot timer is unrealistic from a business stand point. Both in game and in store.

[Xynot2]

I'm happy you enjoy to play the game this way.

Now please leave those of us who don't alone.

Only goal is to have Fun. If Player A and B are having fun, who cares how they get there. Right?

That is why this thread is getting more and more pointless and redundant as it goes along.

Tried to +1 rep ya but already gave out my 24hr quota. This is the main point to anyone who calls for a nerf to some one else's game play.

[smatt]

The end to which I would be moving towards would still be preventing overpowered casters from dominating play even more than they can now and move them towards managing their SP. For balance reasons. The same reason many, many, many changes have taken place and continue to take place.

I don't think for one minute that being able to add 1800 SP over 3 minutes instead of 20 seconds because of a timer is going to be the doom of anyone's gaming experience.

If one assumes someone will leave over it I would say it's equally fair that someone would remain because of their own gaming experience too. Stating people would leave over it is pretty much just doomsaying with all the relevant data a magic 8 ball or psychic hotline can muster. I don't think either side of the discussion is in any position to actually project player attrition over such a change unless you have access to some reporting tools that I do not.

You can think what you will... I disagree with you as have the vast majority that have stopped by this thread. I've been around long enough to see lesser changes decrease player population. I've watched carefully how variosu changes to the game hae affected overall population swings, and how those specific changes have affected player behavior...

In my opinion and MY opinion alone this would further damage the game

[Aashrym]

I'm happy you enjoy to play the game this way.

Now please leave those of us who don't alone.

Only goal is to have Fun. If Player A and B are having fun, who cares how they get there. Right?

That is why this thread is getting more and more pointless and redundant as it goes along.

If player A and player B are having fun is the only concern...

...we would still be able to pull levers and open doors in stealth
...haste would still be the original attack speed bonus
...greensteel would be the original ML
...we would still have no ML +6 stat modifier rings
...movement wouldn't prevent glancing blows
...the EiN timer would not have been increased
...wail of the banshee would still kill over a dozen mobs with the original cooldown
...extend spell would still apply to offensive spells and not just buffs
...eSoS would have the previous stats
...displacement would still be able to target party members
...many spell effects would not have recurring saves
...etc

Having fun is a consideration but never has it been the only consideration. It's easy to prove time and again throughout the history of DDO that is has never been the only consideration.

[Xynot2]

If player A and player B are having fun is the only concern...

...we would still be able to pull levers and open doors in stealth
...haste would still be the original attack speed bonus
...greensteel would be the original ML
...we would still have no ML +6 stat modifier rings
...movement wouldn't prevent glancing blows
...the EiN timer would not have been increased
...wail of the banshee would still kill over a dozen mobs with the original cooldown
...extend spell would still apply to offensive spells and not just buffs
...eSoS would have the previous stats
...displacement would still be able to target party members
...many spell effects would not have recurring saves
...etc

Having fun is a consideration but never has it been the only consideration. It's easy to prove time and again throughout the history of DDO that is has never been the only consideration.

So what your saying is- They nerfed mine so I want them to nerf yours. Right?

[Aashrym]

So what your saying is- They nerfed mine so I want them to nerf yours. Right?

Well, no, I'm refuting the point quoted with evidence to back up why the stand point of fun being the only concern as being incorrect. Players who state they want stamina bars on melee or timers on healing potions if SP potions get timers appear to be saying, "if you nerf mine I want your's nerfed" tho.

I'm just pointing out changes are made because of more than just player likes and dislikes.

Your paraphrase of what I'm saying is incorrect.

[Rodasch]

Except for the fact that every single player can farm potions for free if they choose. The amount of time in the real world to farm either car is a huge investment. The amount of time to farm enough potions to make an impact is less than a week.

Similarly, every single human on the planet could farm money in real life for "free" if they choose, it only requires an investment of time and some skill in knowing where to spend that time...just like farming for sp potions. My point still stands.

The real world also has restrictions on the use of both to those items. DDO restricts shrines and not potions.

the real world has only the laws of physics to limit those items. Rules and laws are arbitrary rule sets that we as humans place on ourselves, much like choosing to play DDO as "Permadeath". I'm not opposed to gamers banding together into "societies" that play by the same rule sets...that has no effect on the physics of the game, only the social interaction. That's the crux of my argument. You seek legislation by altering the laws of physics, others are simply suggesting that people legislate themselves instead of praying to god to make cars not go quite so fast just so they won't accidentally get to work too fast one day.

That's why I pointed out that if SP potions were not so readily available then it would not even be an option to consider potions over shrining.

"Readily available" is another one of those nebulous opinion thingies I spoke about before. You negate the ability to discuss this factually if you insist on falling back on opinions and subjective experiences as your measure. Please try to avoid that practice.

The fact that potions can be a better option as is over a free and numerous resource such as a shrine indicates something is not as it should be.

Bike riding can be a better option as is over a free and numerous resource like the ability to just walk places. However, riding a bike is easier and sometimes more fun, so people pay money for bikes. That doesn't mean that bikes should be limited to only being ridden for 5 minutes a day.

You're still using a lot of specious arguments to try to "prove" your point, but none of them are really proving anything except that YOU particularly FEEL a certain way about it. That's not in question, so no need to prove you feel anything. What's in question is the validity of the actual need to force potion use into a different model in the current version of the game.

As far as "widespread use" if it's not widespread use that gets back to invalidating arguments about the value of the revenue stream and player attrition. If it's not common it will not be an impact on the population and will not have significant negative impact on revenue or player attrition, as some have argued.

If I offer you your choice of $100 or $99 a day, which would you choose? it's only a dollar difference, but over time it adds up...specifically it adds up to $365.25 a year, or $3652.50 over a decade. Mana potions are not single handedly propping Turbine's revenue stream up, but they are a brick in the column, and the whole column is important to supporting the entity. If you earned $100 a day and saved it all, and after 10 years I came to your house and took away $3652.50 of it, would you say I didn't "impact" your revenue?

That does make sense. However, I'm thinking of how many times, how often, and how fast this is possible. If I can't empty my blue bar faster than I can refill it that just means the timer could be a bit longer. Right now we can fill it up faster than it can be emptied and that's exactly the point I think I might have been failing to communicate properly comes in.

It's not how fast we can fill it that impacts our power, you know...it's how fast we can empty it. That's why they "nerfed" spells like Wail of the Banshee with a recast timer and kill per second model, not by increasing their sp cost. It's going to be more powerful the faster it can be cast. Not the more times it can be cast total. It's about recast timers these days, not sp limitations. Turbine already balances spells and content based on a frequency of casting, not a total of casting. The primary reason for this is that total damage cannot be balanced for as a quantity due to the inherent potential for VIRTUALLY unlimited damage output from melee weapons (weilded by anyone, not just melee toons). Same with the amount of healing available...since it's virtually unlimited given the right class/PrE combinations or proper gear (regeneration, vampirism, etc).

Where they control those things is in how much can be done over a set period of time.

This is why the "SP limit" balance is a fallacy.

The game is based on resource management and I think the main reason I would be looking at timers is to move SP to the point were we are beyond being able to replenish it faster than we use it. That's why it's not a true restriction on casting when casting is balanced based on that restriction.

What I'm getting at is moving back to a point where the rate SP can be recovered becomes a point to consider when SP dumping rather than simply deciding we want to have more SP as needed if we can just refill on a whim. If we can replenish faster than that we can dump faster than that for more effectiveness.

I think that if the game is balanced based on not using potions that can easily be out of balance with potions regardless. So far I haven't seen a very convincing argument as so to why it is good for the game.

I am convinced it's not widespread, high priority, and not sustainable. To me that doesn't actually change the game mechanics involved.

See my point above this quote for the reply to this as well.

[psi0nix]

It is just high time the devs did this. I would suggest a one minute timer before a player can drink another mana pot. I do not have any problem with failing more quests because quite frankly if I have to drink mana pots to beat a quest I do not deserve to beat the quest. .

And because of this I feel that no one else should be able to play the way the want and should be forced to play this game my way.

Failing quests just makes the victories that much more sweet and encourages higher quality game play. There are no mana pots in D&D.

Again, simply because I noticed others who I don't consider 'elite' finishing quests and I just can't have that.

This game is too easy. 4 or 5 years ago DDO was so much more difficult. If you the devs are opposed to this on the normal or hard difficulties at least consider it for the elite difficulty. Thanks for striving to improve the game play.

In the FIVE YEARS I have played this game I have gotten very good at it and demand that no one else be given a chance to enjoy it without going through 'hard times' or at least making the game the least amount of fun for others, I've had my fun and that's it, no one else should now.

In red.
Posts like this just annoy me.

[smatt]

Someone here is talking just to hear himself talk..... And it's not me (this time).

Last words I have...

It's a stupid idea, that would do nothign to increase the player population of this game, and in fact may lessen it....

That's all that needs to be said right there, since really the only thing that matters today in DDO's life cycle, anything else is folly...

[Xynot2]

Well, no, I'm refuting the point quoted with evidence to back up why the stand point of fun being the only concern as being incorrect. Players who state they want stamina bars on melee or timers on healing potions if SP potions get timers appear to be saying, "if you nerf mine I want your's nerfed" tho.

I'm just pointing out changes are made because of more than just player likes and dislikes.

Your paraphrase of what I'm saying is incorrect.

Thank you for clarifying that. "if you nerf mine I want your's nerfed" seems to be what most of the OP and agreement with the OP is about.

It's not how fast we can fill it that impacts our power, you know...it's how fast we can empty it. That's why they "nerfed" spells like Wail of the Banshee with a recast timer and kill per second model, not by increasing their sp cost. It's going to be more powerful the faster it can be cast. Not the more times it can be cast total. It's about recast timers these days, not sp limitations. Turbine already balances spells and content based on a frequency of casting, not a total of casting. The primary reason for this is that total damage cannot be balanced for as a quantity due to the inherent potential for VIRTUALLY unlimited damage output from melee weapons (weilded by anyone, not just melee toons). Same with the amount of healing available...since it's virtually unlimited given the right class/PrE combinations or proper gear (regeneration, vampirism, etc).

Where they control those things is in how much can be done over a set period of time.

This is why the "SP limit" balance is a fallacy.

Ding ding ding! Winner winner chicken dinner! I couldn't agree more.

[cpito]

Determining that a caster can do more with 8000 SP that 2000 SP isn't much of a stretch; it's more like common sense.

Of course it is, that's not really the issue since it's easily applied as an argument for both sides which disqualifies it as an answer for why mana pots are overpowered. Besides, being able to "do more" is a little misleading. They merely allow a caster to last longer.

Honest question- because I'm not familiar with all the EDs- but is it possible that a caster would bypass a shrine due to not wanting certain abilities to reset?

[psi0nix]

I love these : The games too easy for ME, so I want OTHERS to have a harder time of it. Been playing for years and now some noob can just complete the quest, without my help or without ME telling them how noob they are for dying........

Because anything like this you can self-enforce, wanting it forced on OTHERS is nothing more than wanting to feel superior to others, by making it hard for them.

You want a 'challenging' game ? - play permadeath (bet you don't)

I bet you're the kind of OP who would exploit the hell out of something, then once you've gotten what you want comes on the forums and complains about it to get it 'fixed' ... like those who smashed the ES challenges XP, ran it to death then came here and demanded it was fixed. (you know who you are).

[Aashrym]

"Readily available" is another one of those nebulous opinion thingies I spoke about before. You negate the ability to discuss this factually if you insist on falling back on opinions and subjective experiences as your measure. Please try to avoid that practice.

They are readily available. Either farming, trading, AH, trinket turn in, or store. Anyone can have them. That is a fact and not an opinion. The subjective part is how much is too much or where we draw the line and I admit my interpretation on that is just as subjective as the next person.

You're still using a lot of specious arguments to try to "prove" your point, but none of them are really proving anything except that YOU particularly FEEL a certain way about it. That's not in question, so no need to prove you feel anything. What's in question is the validity of the actual need to force potion use into a different model in the current version of the game.

Like I said, the game is balanced on finite spell points. We've been told by devs that spells are more powerful than combat because of that finite restriction and we've been told by devs that SP potions are not taken into consideration when balancing the content against the players. No one can argue that SP potions provide extra SP nor that spells are very powerful, nor state what we have from the devs is invalid.

If spells are more powerful because of finite spell points then superficially increasing the spell point pool allows for more of that finite power to be used more often and no restriction on SP potions when every other form of SP regeneration in the entire game has restriction on it breaks the game mechanic (finite spell points). You posted the same dev quote regarding not taking SP potions into consider for balancing content. You acknowledged that you can refill your SP bar faster than you can empty it. Where does that leave the limitation in place for balance if SP is more powerful than combat specifically because of that limitation. Being able to do more with 8000 SP than 2000 SP isn't an opinion, it's fact; balance based finite spell points isn't an opinion, it's what we've been told the intent is.

If I offer you your choice of $100 or $99 a day, which would you choose? it's only a dollar difference, but over time it adds up...specifically it adds up to $365.25 a year, or $3652.50 over a decade. Mana potions are not single handedly propping Turbine's revenue stream up, but they are a brick in the column, and the whole column is important to supporting the entity. If you earned $100 a day and saved it all, and after 10 years I came to your house and took away $3652.50 of it, would you say I didn't "impact" your revenue?

I wouldn't assume players would stop buying just because a timer was added. My personal opinion is they would still carry a lot of value and players would still purchase them. I can't back that up though. I don't have the information to accurately predict impact anymore than anyone else can, for good or bad. The belief players would make a significant decrease in purchases is something I consider subjective opinion and something you were warning me against.

It's not how fast we can fill it that impacts our power, you know...it's how fast we can empty it. That's why they "nerfed" spells like Wail of the Banshee with a recast timer and kill per second model, not by increasing their sp cost. It's going to be more powerful the faster it can be cast. Not the more times it can be cast total. It's about recast timers these days, not sp limitations. Turbine already balances spells and content based on a frequency of casting, not a total of casting. The primary reason for this is that total damage cannot be balanced for as a quantity due to the inherent potential for VIRTUALLY unlimited damage output from melee weapons (weilded by anyone, not just melee toons). Same with the amount of healing available...since it's virtually unlimited given the right class/PrE combinations or proper gear (regeneration, vampirism, etc).

Where they control those things is in how much can be done over a set period of time.

This is why the "SP limit" balance is a fallacy.

I disagree. The speed it can be refilled makes a huge difference. The speed to dump 1500 SP over 45 seconds is meaningless if a person only has 600 SP because the SP didn't regenerate as fast. The numbers can vary based on the actual ability of players to dump SP fast but the ability to dump SP that is no longer available makes dumping it fast impossible.

The spells being balanced by timers already is the fallacy because they don't share timers and casters set up rotations while other spells are on timer. 1 SP potion is a lot of additional energy bursts. That's a significant amount of damage and a big increase, and on a timer. A person isn't going to simply wait for that timer tho; a person is going to continue casting spells in rotation to bypass that timer restriction and more SP replenished fast enough sustains rotations longer than not using potions when it really matters to alter the difficulty of challenge faced.

I don't see anyone disputing the fact that a caster can do more with 2000 SP than 1000 SP. That's twice as many spells. That's twice as much damage. That's twice as many instant kills. That's twice as much healing. That's not a lot of SP potions. It's also just basic math with information we can see. We can see the SP on a build and we know the average SP regained from potions.

10% more SP superficially created with potions is 10% more total damage on what is a finite resource. 20% more SP superficially created with potions is 20% more total damage on what is a finite resource. 40% more SP superficially created is 40% more total damage. When does a person draw that line?

If I have 3000 SP and I drink 1 major potion for 300 average SP that's a 10% increase in what I can do with that SP. Every SP potions I drink is another 10%.

We can go back to rest shrines, eladrin statuettes, or anything else that provides SP. The end result ultimately still leads back to the fact that balance is created with finite SP in mind and the the statement that players are not expected to need these resources so these resources creating a situation where these resources impact balance. None of that is opinion; finite SP is an obvious game mechanic and balance based on not needing to use those resources is a dev statement, one you quoted.

I'm actually trying to cut back on my replies at this point. I doubt I'm changing any minds or that anyone is changing my mind based on the responses so far. I also need a nap. I'm old.

[cpito]

RAWR

/chair and whip

Chill out, my friend! While your anger is not misplaced, we have been down that road (see 65 pages) and are attempting a more reasonable discourse

Your message has been one of our biggest arguments in that a timer would be detrimental to too many legitimate playstyles.

It's a really big playground. There should be room for everyone.

[cpito]

I heard that on Lamannia or Mournlands or something, that SP pots actually have a 4 minute cooldown. Anyone know what is up with that change? Will it go live on the next patch or do we at least have until the next full update?

myth debunked aleady

[Aashrym]

Of course it is, that's not really the issue since it's easily applied as an argument for both sides which disqualifies it as an answer for why mana pots are overpowered. Besides, being able to "do more" is a little misleading. They merely allow a caster to last longer.

Honest question- because I'm not familiar with all the EDs- but is it possible that a caster would bypass a shrine due to not wanting certain abilities to reset?

There's other reasons that just that, but yes, that is another reason. Buffs need to be recast after shrining in a lot of cases so using a shrine becomes a much lengthier process than simply resting at times.

Lasting long is more. It's still back to the same reasoning. The game is balanced based on finite spell points and spells are more effective because of that according to the dev team. Continually having spell points simply puts a caster using a better tool ahead longer.

I'm not actually trying to be argumentative or anything. I'm just a sucker to keep discussing and sometimes can't seem to help the urge to continue replying.

I don't have anything against having fun and I don't want to tell others how to have fun. I'm pretty much just stating a point on why I think restrictions are a reasonable idea.

I'll repeat myself when I say I would put it on a low priority. I would put the new enhancement system, more spells, more content, and bug fixes ahead of another nerf that won't have that much impact.

If you think I was trying to be argumentative you also have my apologies. Voice tone doesn't carry well through a media like this.

[Aashrym]

I heard that on Lamannia or Mournlands or something, that SP pots actually have a 4 minute cooldown. Anyone know what is up with that change? Will it go live on the next patch or do we at least have until the next full update?

4 minutes would be way overboard anyway. Vigor almost regens faster than that and doesn't have the existing restriction of being a consumable. Being a consumable is a very big reason not too get carried away with SP potions specifically.

I think some restriction are in order but 4 minutes is redonculous.

[smatt]

In red.
Posts like this just annoy me.

You seem to have Maddmatt's undertones down.....