It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[Anihsod]

Those other games also have timers and cooldowns on their spells, so there is a specific rate at which healing type spells can be cast, which is part of where the inherant game balance limitations come from. In DDO, with a few cure spells and a heal spell up, people can rotate through them with the global cooldown only and never have a situation where they cant cast a cure or heal due to cooldown of the spell timer.

Other MMO
1 low output spell instant cast with 10 second cooldown
1 low output spell 2 second cast with 1 second cooldown
1 mid-higher output spell 5 second cast with 10 second cooldown
1 high output LOH type spell, 30 min cooldown.

DDO
CLW instant cast 1s cooldown
CMW instant cast 1s cooldown
CSW instant cast 1s cooldown
CCW instant cast 1s cooldown
Heal instant cast 1s cooldown
Mass versions of all with mass heal being the only one that takes significant time to cast.

Damage spells are balanced the same way in other MMOs -vs- DDO. This is why endless supply of mana potions available is MORE unbalancing in DDO.

Ive already debunked this notion that 50% of mana pot guzzlers are supplied by in game potions. I posted the breakdown of current mana potions on 3 different servers AH at the time I made the post. Theres no way the AH is supplying abusers as fast as they guzzle. We played DDO for more than 3 years before the store was put in, and mana potions were far less part of peoples gaming experience than they are now.

You are so completely and utterly full of it. Your "debunking" is based completely and solely on your biased speculation with ample amounts of assumption thrown in to boot.

"Other" mmo's have completely .. absolutely .. different mechanics and balancing to their spell useage. "Other" mmo's have mechanics that require using your low level healing spells alongside the healing spells gained later on .. DDO healers don't touch CLW after low level play.

"Other" mmo's have mechanics built in for mana recovery .. and as a healer in one of those games if you don't spec and gear for that mana recovery .. you simply don't run as a healer .. ever. The "other" mmo I healed extensively had an expansion called Cata. Every single healer in that game had to initially stop after every single fight to recoup mana due to their innate mana recovery at that point not being able to keep up. My main .. who was widely recognized as a beast in the healing dept .. Was casting *something* every cooldown ( second ) for hours on end during raids. If that character were running under DDO's machanics I would have had to drink mana pots by the keg full several times every fight.

You are simply .. completely .. absolutely .. utterly .. and blatantly .. WAY off base. YOU have yet to state WHY ( truthfully ) you are so gung ho over other people using mana pots. You pretend it's a game balance thing .. which is "rootbeer float spewing out the nostrils" laughable. I contend you suffer from WF Sorc / Well built Divine envy. I contend you thought your toon would be the omfg l33t uber savior of the group, but you end up being shown up by the blue bars.

Anytime you feel like getting edumacated concerning healing in DDO and healing other mmo's .. you just hop on over to thelanis and look me up .. i'd be more than happy to lern ya a thing r two.

PS man i look forward to the red dots from the herp derps on this one

[Anihsod]

Ah .. and for the record .. i once burned thru 20 mana pots ( that a guildie gave me ) in a ** Shroud hard **. Mind you I had only been playing DDO for maybe 3 or 4 months at that point. Afterwards the asked for pot count and I said 20. They said " OMG blah blah blah" .. My response was a truthful, if you herp derp dps would learn to play better I wouldn't have to brute force heal so much. ( 100% guild run ). Since then I don't much raid with any of my guilds .. i just pug raids..... and I simply don't carry mana pots on my healers at all. My philosophy towards pug raid healing now is .. if they derp the fight and need brute force healing to get thru .. then they shoulda forked over mana pots as soon as we entered the raid. That in now way shape or form means anyone else shouldn't/couldn't/can't/won't drink mana pots to their hearts content ... it's none of my (#&& business how many pots someone else goes thru.

[Coldest]

i liked old mod 3-4ish ddo a lot.. I liked the steep learning curve.... I liked spending time teaching others, as well as learning from others.... and i miss coldest

:d

[Vint]

You are simply .. completely .. absolutely .. utterly .. and blatantly .. WAY off base. YOU have yet to state WHY ( truthfully ) you are so gung ho over other people using mana pots. You pretend it's a game balance thing

+1 and I have a similar concern.

There has been no balance in DDO since F2P started. Why don't we get rid of

Loot gems
Cleric Dily
Mana pots
XP pots
Wall of fire
Blade Barrier
Heal scrolls
Monks-EIN
UMD
WF casters
Res cakes


Hell, why dont we just give everyone the same feats, same skill points, same attributes and you will have your "Balanced" game. Let me know how many people are still playing this, cause I will be long gone.

[redoubt]

It would affect me. On occasion I use multiple pots in a quest or raid.


Why should I not be able to do that with the pots that I either bought from the store, found in chests, or bought on the AH? Because somebody else doesn't want to drink pots? Why should I not be able to do what I want with my stuff because someone else doesn't want the option to do the same?


If you think mana pots are overpowered, or an easy button, or "pay to win", or DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, then don't use them. No one is forcing you to. But just like you wouldn't like it if you were forced to play the way other people want to play, you shouldn't force other people to play the way you want to play.

It really is pretty simple. If you think "X" is not something you want to use, don't use it. Please don't presume to dictate to the rest of the DDO universe based on your own personal preferences.

Actually, I don't care how other people play as long as it doesn't affect me.

As long as Turbine promises to NOT balance the game against drinking mana potions, you can drink them all you want.

My concern here, and all along, is that Turbine will do thing to balance the game around items available in the store. This means that without the items in the store you will not be able to do certain things in game. Clear back when the store was first talked about, I expressed concern over it and I still do.

Last week I had to sent mana potions to a bank alt because the stack of looted ones in my shared back was bigger than 100. I rarely use them. Mostly I give them out to helpful healer if we have had a bad day.

Also, please realize, I never said it should be 15 minutes, I just asked what if. Several people have gotten really ****ed off at me for even asking that, saying don't tell me how to play!!! arg!!! On the flip side, please don't mana potion through content to the point that turbine changes the game to require them. That affects my play...

[Bunker]

If you are doing <insert chugging anything consumable to complete>, then you may complete, but not neccessarily doing it right.

Consuming potions, using scrolls, rez cakes, raid loot, uber <insert item here>; these are simply tools.

Let me say again, Mnemonic Potions are a tool.

Tools help players complete quests. With any tool, there is a wrong and right way to use them. However, if a player wishes to use these tools the wrong way, let them. Doesn't hurt my gaming, and why should it hurt anyone elses?

I've read about 1/2 this thread, and I yet to see a valid reason to put a timer on this item, without putting a timer on every consumable in game. Including cure pots, heal scrolls, and basically anything that stacks to 100 quantity.

-Bunk

[redoubt]

It would affect me.... I certainly use more pots to level up blue bars than I do in epics.. But I do use them... More out of laziness and conviencance than anything. Do I "need" them... Rarely... Do I want to have the option, yes I do.... Do I care what some self-proclaimed uber thinks, not really no.... Uber I am not, but a very seasoned vet with right at 6 years and 3 days of almost everyday continual DDO play I am...

I recognize the arguement that Matt and Chai as well as the others are trying to make. That unlimited pot use creates a situation where new players don't learn to play their toons correctly.. But what is playing correctly? It's most certainly not how the former think they should be played. It's hwo each individual WANTS to play....

IMO, it's a stupid idea...

I, like you have, been playing for well over 6 years. I help new players learn when I can. A couple days ago I took a rogue and a sorc into the House K quest in the denieth bar (the one with all the traps.) You can't see HP when they hit the LFM and no I didn't kick them out for have under 100hp at level 8. I did explain all the options for HP and helped the rogue by getting him some better trap gear off the auction and telling him about INT and HERO potions. We prolly could have dropped them both and finished much, much faster but we didn't.

I, like you, am not trying to tell other people how to play. My concern over mana potions has nothing to do with Chai's argument that people don't learn the game because of them. I don't care if they learn the game. I can't force them to learn it. Pots have nothing to do with it. Its the persons attitude. Both players I helped the other day had good attitudes. They were in over their heads (the other 4 were multi-TRs who had trap spots memorized etc and yada yada, whatever), but they were willing to listen and learn and I think we all had a good time. That is how you make better players, not by changing potions.

My problem, and I don't know if you share it, is with the DDO store and turbine balancing the game around having things you can buy in it. Please understand the difference, even if you disagree with me, at least know what we are disagreeing about.

Thank you.

[redoubt]

I almost never use them, and even rarer is the time when I use store bought ones. I have something like 10 sitting on my druid right now (not store bought). But when i do decide to use one, it usually isn't one that I want to use, but two or three, because if I decide I need to use them for a situation it is usually because I really could use the entire blue bar back.

But having a 15 minute timer on them would effect me negatively as I would be less inclined to try more challenging content if I felt I couldn't lean on that crutch if I totally screwed up. It would negatively effect people that invite my cleric to do quests with them because I would be less inclined to accept if the quest was more challenging and I couldn't use that crutch to 'save the day' if things went south despite a good attempt by the group. As it is, I pretty much 'auto-decline' invites on my cleric for elite quests at level from strangers because I am pretty sure an elite at-level run with a bunch of strangers that have never played with each other is not going to go smoothly.

You see, it isn't so much do I use them a lot, as whether or not I have the option to use them in certain situations. If it will be store bought ones than the situation has to warrant me spending real money to pull a quest out of the crapper, rather than just a release and re-enter (or reset).

+1 to you sir.

Thank you for a well thought out and constructive reply. I too have, on occasion, used pots on my cleric to try to pull out a win. I get it.

From your posts, its sounds like you feel pressure from groups, or at least pugs, to use potions to make up for bad play. Is that accurate?

Also, would a shorter time help? Like 5 minutes or 3? Or do you simple chug a few pots to act like an impromptu shrine?

Thanks!

[redoubt]

ANYONE that gets hit by enfeeblestupid repeatedly and wants to remove it.

Great point and +1 to you as well. (Not that you need it, but I did anyway.)

I had not considered the non-mana regen affects of them. That would be hampered by a cooldown of any kind if monsters were spamming it like Loth spams curse...

Anyone ever get hit by feeble mind repeatedly? I've been hit by it a few times recently, but its been wearing off quickly and I've not seen it chain cast yet.

[Foxhound3857]

Most core raid teams don't NEED to chug mnemonics to get through it, they just do so because it's more convenient. Why shouldn't people make use of what the game has to offer? It's stupid not to. I don't spend my points on mnemonics, but if I find a spot where they would come in handy, I'm definitely going to burn them. What's the point of having them if you're not going to use them?

You don't like chugging them or seeing others chug them, that's fine. Find another group that feels the same way and leave the rest of us in peace.

[redoubt]

well if you want SP potions on a timer then you must also want a timer on weapon attacking also right?

No.

Weapon attacking has nothing to do with the DDO store.

[smatt]

I, like you have, been playing for well over 6 years. I help new players learn when I can. A couple days ago I took a rogue and a sorc into the House K quest in the denieth bar (the one with all the traps.) You can't see HP when they hit the LFM and no I didn't kick them out for have under 100hp at level 8. I did explain all the options for HP and helped the rogue by getting him some better trap gear off the auction and telling him about INT and HERO potions. We prolly could have dropped them both and finished much, much faster but we didn't.

I, like you, am not trying to tell other people how to play. My concern over mana potions has nothing to do with Chai's argument that people don't learn the game because of them. I don't care if they learn the game. I can't force them to learn it. Pots have nothing to do with it. Its the persons attitude. Both players I helped the other day had good attitudes. They were in over their heads (the other 4 were multi-TRs who had trap spots memorized etc and yada yada, whatever), but they were willing to listen and learn and I think we all had a good time. That is how you make better players, not by changing potions.

My problem, and I don't know if you share it, is with the DDO store and turbine balancing the game around having things you can buy in it. Please understand the difference, even if you disagree with me, at least know what we are disagreeing about.

Thank you.

As I said some where in this mess of a thread a while back, I was concerned a bit about quest balancing around things liek store bought pots when the store debuted. But I have seen little evidence of that.... In fact just the opposite, the quests that have come out in the last 2-3 years have been overloaded with shrines. They have even removed the re-entry limitation on epics.

I'm telling you, this thread has nothing to do with game blance... The orginal poster thinks everybody should play the way he wants them to. He also feels threatened, that his accomplishments are cheapened if others can do them, even if it's with the help of things like SP pots. And the very long winded one who came in later... He just wants everybody to play the game exactly as he does. He somehow thinks that he's the arbitor of all that is DDO. Hey they may both be great guys, I've never grouped with either one of them, but this is yet another thread in a long ongoing saga of some people trying to craft the game around their playstyle, ing to force others that aren't playing right, to be part of their little world.

[redoubt]

+1 and I have a similar concern.

There has been no balance in DDO since F2P started. Why don't we get rid of

Loot gems -- OK
Cleric Dily -- why?
Mana pots -- OK
XP pots -- OK
Wall of fire -- No, this is a spell that you get as a caster, not one you buy in the store.
Blade Barrier -- No, see above.
Heal scrolls -- No, see above.
Monks-EIN -- I don't know. Seems pretty powerful, but I don't have a monk so hard to really comment on it.
UMD -- No.
WF casters -- No. Only place WF are still really good since the most recent nerfs.
Res cakes -- OK.

Hell, why dont we just give everyone the same feats, same skill points, same attributes and you will have your "Balanced" game. Let me know how many people are still playing this, cause I will be long gone.

An No. I played SWTOR for 6 months. Not enough variety in builds and group make up for me, so I came back here.

[Aashrym]

+1 and I have a similar concern.

There has been no balance in DDO since F2P started. Why don't we get rid of

Loot gems
Cleric Dily
Mana pots
XP pots
Wall of fire
Blade Barrier
Heal scrolls
Monks-EIN
UMD
WF casters
Res cakes


Hell, why dont we just give everyone the same feats, same skill points, same attributes and you will have your "Balanced" game. Let me know how many people are still playing this, cause I will be long gone.

Well, on that list so far Wall of Fire, Blade Barrier, and and EiN have been nerfed, and so was UMD for some characters with the class enhancements for it was removed (long time ago nerf) as well as upping the requirement for UMD on arti scrolls. WF casters has some minor nerfing with recent changes to the immunities but changes to SP potions can nerf them more with less access to more SP for their OP-ness.

Things haven't been changed in the past because there wasn't a concern on balance.

EDIT: When I refer to game balance I don't expect classes to be the same. Just equally relevant in individual ways, or relatively close anyway. Generally when I refer to balance it's the ability to challenge content to player abilities relatively closely and there's a big variance between 0 pots and what can be available compared to something like 0-6 pots.

[mobrien316]

Actually, I don't care how other people play as long as it doesn't affect me.

As long as Turbine promises to NOT balance the game against drinking mana potions, you can drink them all you want.

The way other people play does not affect you. If you don't like grouping with people who chug pots, don't group with people who chug pots.

If the game ever comes down to the point where you MUST buy store bought pots to complete quests, then everyone can decide for themselves if they wish to continue playing or not. And I'm talking about MUST buy, which is not a scenario I see ever happening. If all casters have zero SP after resting until they buy a pot from the store, then we are in a "must buy" situation. If a new raid comes out where SP gets drained and you can exit, restore your SP, and re-enter, that is NOT a "must buy" situation.

As it currently stands, casters can never use a pot, use only found pots, or buy stacks and stacks of store pots and drink them like the plane is going down. Everyone can play according to what they consider fun. To me, that is so much better than mandating that everyone in the game play the way a minority of players in the game think they "should" play.

[Missing_Minds]

Anyone ever get hit by feeble mind repeatedly? I've been hit by it a few times recently, but its been wearing off quickly and I've not seen it chain cast yet.

Wildmen have it as a crit effect on their melee attacks.

sort of like how... emm. wights? can have the negative level drain crit effect.

[maddmatt70]

When I put up the original post I really did not think a change would happen. I was just fed up with the existance of mana pots and the impact they have in game. Now I think a change will happen after this thread. The devs have made a lot of unpopular changes throughout the years. Despite the different changes' unpopularity they have almost always resulted in a better game. The developers do a very good job. I really liked the MOTU which surprised me with its overall creativity.

This alteration to mana pots will begin a step of greatly improving DDO. DDO should try to keep to its Dungeons and Dragons roots where feasible. DDO should seek to provide more viability to different builds. DDO should encourage thinking not brute force methods. Altering Mana Pots will accomplish all these goals.

The ulitmate goal for Turbine as a for profit company is earning more dollars. Changing the effects mana pots have on DDO will lead to more players playing DDO because it will be a better game which will in turn lead to more players spending money which will in turn lead to more profits. Although changing mana pots could lead to a short term profit loss, the long term benefits of more players far outweigh any short term profit loss.

[Qhualor]

The way other people play does not affect you. If you don't like grouping with people who chug pots, don't group with people who chug pots.

If the game ever comes down to the point where you MUST buy store bought pots to complete quests, then everyone can decide for themselves if they wish to continue playing or not. And I'm talking about MUST buy, which is not a scenario I see ever happening. If all casters have zero SP after resting until they buy a pot from the store, then we are in a "must buy" situation. If a new raid comes out where SP gets drained and you can exit, restore your SP, and re-enter, that is NOT a "must buy" situation.

As it currently stands, casters can never use a pot, use only found pots, or buy stacks and stacks of store pots and drink them like the plane is going down. Everyone can play according to what they consider fun. To me, that is so much better than mandating that everyone in the game play the way a minority of players in the game think they "should" play.

LFM:

"no p2w players please"

yeah, i dont see this happening, so not grouping with people who chug pots is really a case by case basis because you dont know everytime someone in your group buys pots. when you do find out, squelch? blacklist? note it? my friends list isnt big enough to list that many people who choose to buy pots from the store, even if i was somehow able to find out. even when i do find out, its silly to just not run with them. i would be soloing everything in the game. so really, its not that simple.

your scenario of casters having zero sp after shrining is probably a little too exaggerated. if that were the case, than the game would definitely go ka-poot.

i think the point you might be missing is that some people dont want to tell players what to do, even though we do that all the time about other things, its that they want to keep the challenge factor. what challenge is there guzzling pots? and than guzzling pots to steamroll quests because time is against them, while others in the group may want to stop and catch their breath for a minute and see the sights wizzing by them.

some people like to try to complete quests with a group that can do it with their skill and the amount of spell points that they have, utilizing in game resources as needed like clickies and torcs. they prefer to save the mana guzzling for just the "oh ****" times.

yes, there are some people that like to tell others how to play, but theres a lot more players who are not coming across with their pleas politely enough to say "lets slow down on the drinks, fella and lets enjoy the show".

[Hokiewa]

When I put up the original post I really did not think a change would happen. I was just fed up with the existance of mana pots and the impact they have in game. Now I think a change will happen after this thread. The devs have made a lot of unpopular changes throughout the years. Despite the different changes' unpopularity they have almost always resulted in a better game. The developers do a very good job. I really liked the MOTU which surprised me with its overall creativity.

Lol, people believe the craziest things

[Anihsod]

When I put up the original post I really did not think a change would happen. I was just fed up with the existance of mana pots and the impact they have in game. Now I think a change will happen after this thread. The devs have made a lot of unpopular changes throughout the years. Despite the different changes' unpopularity they have almost always resulted in a better game. The developers do a very good job. I really liked the MOTU which surprised me with its overall creativity.

This alteration to mana pots will begin a step of greatly improving DDO. DDO should try to keep to its Dungeons and Dragons roots where feasible. DDO should seek to provide more viability to different builds. DDO should encourage thinking not brute force methods. Altering Mana Pots will accomplish all these goals.

The ulitmate goal for Turbine as a for profit company is earning more dollars. Changing the effects mana pots have on DDO will lead to more players playing DDO because it will be a better game which will in turn lead to more players spending money which will in turn lead to more profits. Although changing mana pots could lead to a short term profit loss, the long term benefits of more players far outweigh any short term profit loss.

wow .. repeatedly you've been shown how .. ( how to say it nicely .... ) ... misguided .. your proposal is. Then you come across with this gem of a post. kudos sir !!