It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[DanteEnFuego]

Well no, I disgree, there should be a timer on eating pumkin pies because you might think it doesn't affect others, but the reality is other people wills still need to see and smell you, and some may look at you with disgust. And on top of that, even tho they see you eat pie after pie in order to complete Thanksgiving I doubt any of them will offer you more pies to replace them.

I like to get a little pie after I see a good movie. Especially Sister Street Fighter or other Sonny Cheeba wonders...

[suitepotato]

If it bothers you then you could just refrain from drinking so many SP pots. It really can be resisted.

^^^This.

This thread is just another example of the modern malady of going right past the obvious thing of dealing with how YOU do something to wanting to control how EVERYONE ELSE lives and acts. Rather than not chugging mana pots, demand that others are prevented from it. Genius.

Is it destroying how YOU play? NOT AT ALL. Is it even slightly affecting you? NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST.

It amazes me that people don't want game play changed to make their own play more enjoyable as much as they want it changed to make other people unhappy. Is that what we've come to? Griefing the rest of the player base by demanding changes that take something away from them that they might enjoy? Evidently so.

Head > desk X 1000.

[Karavek]

And i think that a sane DM would never let you use an unlimited number of those items.

Your under the assumption a DM has the right to limit anything as core as crafting feats. All crafting feats and spells found in RPGA accepted source books is material only very specific custom made settings can really limit, and then you better be doing alot to other classes as well if your going to deny players standard aspects of their class for no better reason then you dont like it. Otherwise the player is likely to dice bag you in the face, laugh at your dazed bloody look of shock, and rally the group to ditch you and go play real D&D at their house.

Alot of hide bound players dont grasp that the biggest change from 2nd to 3E was the clarifying of how to craft magic items, standarized feats and a easy to understand mechanic for developing them. Gp+EP+ down time between adventure sessions = pretty much any magic item short of an artifact you might desire.

I broke a friends love of D&D over this. He hadnt touched 3E until he played with us, who had gotten over our initial distaste for 3E in only a year or so after it came out.

He had first played with us while I GMd a d20 wheel of time campaign. He mistakenly assumed the power of the spell casters was unique to that setting and when he and another member started to push for a traditional forgotten realms adventure he asked if he could sit behind the shield.

I made it very clear that if I was going to be forced to play in the accursed realms which I so loathe I would probably be something rather out of the box as far as concept went. Nor as a group did we accept any rule that wasnt part of that specific setting.

I went with a lawful neutral half elven bastard son yet only heir of a red wizard of they and was a wizard planning on joining those ranks, which meant it was vital to keep my elven blood secret. It also meant I was in the business of making magic items.

For those who dont know FR in the rule books in the current era is actually seeing the eqiv of wal mart magical item stores in the form of red wizard enclaves. Virtually any city that has a thayan embassy has a shop where virtually any lvl 1-3 spell can be aquired in scroll,potion, or wand form. They also will make nearly any magical item within their ability for a fair price. usually only 5-20% mark up for book listed values for said items. This kind of thing really caught my friend who had requested to DM by surprise, being used to the old 2nd ed view where all magical items and their creations was more under the undefined and difficult to balance power of the DM.

At first he wanted to just ignore that, but as a group we once again stood our ground and made it clear if we where going to play in the realms we would play it as it was not as our friend wanted to see it.

By lvl 5 I was crafting my character a variety of useful items so cheaply thanks to a number of little tricks making my costs to craft about 5% of the base crafting costs. Each time I cracked open a book to explain another rule to my friend he groaned. He had made the classic mistake of those so eager to take control and sit behind the shield, that he hadnt learned the rules better then the players and thus was constantly off balance when he tried to throw challenges at us.

The campaign eventually died out as he kept trying the classic heavy handed trick of a ticking clock scenerio, not understanding that after a few sessions of feeling constantly rushed we just where to tired to muster up interest in playing.

[Karavek]

^^^This.

This thread is just another example of the modern malady of going right past the obvious thing of dealing with how YOU do something to wanting to control how EVERYONE ELSE lives and acts. Rather than not chugging mana pots, demand that others are prevented from it. Genius.

Is it destroying how YOU play? NOT AT ALL. Is it even slightly affecting you? NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST.

It amazes me that people don't want game play changed to make their own play more enjoyable as much as they want it changed to make other people unhappy. Is that what we've come to? Griefing the rest of the player base by demanding changes that take something away from them that they might enjoy? Evidently so.

Head > desk X 1000.

This issue sadly is not new to the MMO scene.

A few years back when Champions online launched it was a pretty decent game. About its biggest issue was the fact in PVP with true free form character building, those who tried pvp without taking into account the myriad abilities potentially at ones fingertips, left those totally flavor builds so far behind it was frustrating in the extreme.

The fact was it had nothing to do with broken OP abilities, nor FOTM builds. Rather it had to do with the mind set of pve orientated builds that where unstoppable in the casual PVE game, became weak kittens in pve.

This lead to a constant state of nerf this or nerf that cries on the forums, directed at whatever current ability was their kryptonite.

For me the last straw was a power that applied a DOT thats dmg was based on the targets own max HP. A staight 10% per tick for 5 ticks. On low hp builds it was a trivial attack to be hit with as heal powers that healed for set numbers could easily over come the dot.

Meanwhile on high HP heavy damage resistant foes, it was virtually the only attack that could put enough pressure on their heal ability to keep them off balance while you poured on the spike dmg.

The huge population of tanks in pve so used to being un dieing forces, cried out for the ability to be nerfed claiming it made pve to easy to take down tough bosses. Despite the fact number crunchers proved that numerous popular builds on the forums at the time had enough dps and debuffing to tear apart virtually every mob in the game faster then the dot could on its own.

And that was the claim the nerfers kept using, that you could hit, block or kite while the dot ticked, apply it agian( it could not stack on itself u had to let it run its course) yet inspite of my argument citing it was the soul kryptonite in the game for those uber self healing tanks the power was nerfed.

I was then forced to demand nerfs to the powers used by super tanks, which after a few months where heard as well, because without my own beloved attack power, the uber tanks had become the dominant fotm.

Now days the game still suffers a constant back and forth because the devs themselves just dont play the game enough to know personally what works, and what needs to be tweeked.

[IronClan]

Your under the assumption a DM has the right to limit anything as core as crafting feats.

The best DM'ed groups I played in, the DM took liberties and pains to keep Munchkins and Rules lawyers from ruining the game for everyone else. D&D has always had it's share of rules that were exploitable. Good DM's knew what they were and put the kibosh on them. Sometimes the best thing a DM could do was simply not allow that rule or class perk, or better yet, put some opposing balance (like increasing the time to craft anything that would be unbalancing dramatically and requiring hard to find components, hard to find being: whenever I felt like letting him find one).

As DM I never let a rule get in the way of my players fun. That occasionally meant that the guy at the table who was prone to think the DM "had no right" was not invited back the next week. This DM could and did do whatever was needed in the name keeping the campaign from devolving into an impossible to balance monty hall mess, and had a hand crafted long running campaign setting and overarching plot that had other players wanting to join simply due to word of mouth, so had no shortage of players, and the luxury to uninvite overly argumentative rules lawyers.

[DanteEnFuego]

I broke a friends love of D&D over this. He hadnt touched 3E until he played with us, who had gotten over our initial distaste for 3E in only a year or so after it came out.

***

By lvl 5 I was crafting my character a variety of useful items so cheaply thanks to a number of little tricks making my costs to craft about 5% of the base crafting costs. Each time I cracked open a book to explain another rule to my friend he groaned. He had made the classic mistake of those so eager to take control and sit behind the shield, that he hadnt learned the rules better then the players and thus was constantly off balance when he tried to throw challenges at us.

The campaign eventually died out as he kept trying the classic heavy handed trick of a ticking clock scenerio, not understanding that after a few sessions of feeling constantly rushed we just where to tired to muster up interest in playing.

You sound like loads of fun. Did you make everyone complete TPS reports each session too.

[maddmatt70]

^^^This.

This thread is just another example of the modern malady of going right past the obvious thing of dealing with how YOU do something to wanting to control how EVERYONE ELSE lives and acts. Rather than not chugging mana pots, demand that others are prevented from it. Genius.

Is it destroying how YOU play? NOT AT ALL. Is it even slightly affecting you? NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST.

It amazes me that people don't want game play changed to make their own play more enjoyable as much as they want it changed to make other people unhappy. Is that what we've come to? Griefing the rest of the player base by demanding changes that take something away from them that they might enjoy? Evidently so.

Head > desk X 1000.

Absolutely this totally changes ddo. The use of mana pots alters the way we all play DDO. I was running a simple level 25 arena eveningstar challenge last week. We had one divine, a cleric, and I think that I was on a rogue. I was trying to do my diligence to heal myself with scrolls and through silver flame pots and the like. In this random pug the cleric did not care about mana pots. He used no scrolls and no radiant servant aura he just used mana pots. He did not appear to need to use mana pots based on what was going on in the quest, but he did so regardless.

I was constantly healing myself only to be healed right after or right before by teh cleric. I was wearing a +5 charisma skills item and had taken other steps to make my defense and umd stronger, but the cleric did not let this factor in on things and instead drank a pot and healed me with the pot which was something he brought from the store, or had, or bought from the auction house. I had taken steps to make a different character then the normal dps only character in order to alleviate the pressure on the cleric and the cleric did not care.

Turbine does not care.

[Gunga]

Absolutely this totally changes ddo.

No. This absolutely does not change anything. You still have a character that can be self sufficient, and that guy can still buy pots to play as he wants.

Mana pots are not a problem in DDO.

[stainer]

Mana pots are not a problem in DDO.

My love for you is a problem.

[Gunga]

My love for you is a problem.

Stacks of 100 of my supreme love are always 20% off for you in the Gunga store.

[Hawklynn]

Stacks of 100 of my supreme love are always 20% off for you in the Gunga store.

I like that "supreme love". From now on, I'll tell healers and casters "Do you need any Supreme Love for what you chugged in here". I'll get lots of odd replies.

[Chai]

No. This absolutely does not change anything. You still have a character that can be self sufficient, and that guy can still buy pots to play as he wants.

Mana pots are not a problem in DDO.

You juist signed your own warrant on not having a voice that can ever complain about the state of the learning curve, character building, or game understanding, in this game, ever again. Ever.

Did I say ever. Yes. EVER.

Why? Because endless mana potions teach people they can bypass the learning curve, dont need good character building, or better game understanding. They have unlimited power, for as long as they are willing to blow disposible income on it. When they are no longer willing to do this, the game will become far less fun for them, due to becomming too difficult.

I see this whole "it doesnt affect you if they do it and you dont" stance alot, and its false every time. The people who pay to win affect the game profoundly for those who dont. Thats why DDO is an entirely different game than it was even a few years ago. Its gotten to the point where if we cant beat a raid within 6 hours of release, people are on the boards crying about it. You think the game as a whole hasnt been affected by this? Puh-leeez.

Apply this to real life and see how absurd it sounds. Lets just let people buy diplomas. Forget about 12 years of learning. Pffft. Who needs that. Just sell diplomas for 1k a pop. Now try the same reasoning. But but dude....it doesnt affect you if you want to learn for 12 years and the other dude just goes into Walmart and buys a college degree.

Now who would you rather be designing your office building? They crew who went to college for engineering, or the crew who got their proof of education from a cracker jack box?

[mobrien316]

You juist signed your own warrant on not having a voice that can ever complain about the state of the learning curve, character building, or game understanding, in this game, ever again. Ever.

Did I say ever. Yes. EVER.

Did I miss the news release announcing your election as Supreme Commander of the Forums?

[Gunga]

You juist signed your own warrant on not having a voice that can ever complain about the state of the learning curve, character building, or game understanding, in this game, ever again. Ever.

Did I say ever. Yes. EVER.

Why? Because endless mana potions teach people they can bypass the learning curve, dont need good character building, or better game understanding. They have unlimited power, for as long as they are willing to blow disposible income on it. When they are no longer willing to do this, the game will become far less fun for them, due to becomming too difficult.

I see this whole "it doesnt affect you if they do it and you dont" stance alot, and its false every time. The people who pay to win affect the game profoundly for those who dont. Thats why DDO is an entirely different game than it was even a few years ago. Its gotten to the point where if we cant beat a raid within 6 hours of release, people are on the boards crying about it. You think the game as a whole hasnt been affected by this? Puh-leeez.

Apply this to real life and see how absurd it sounds. Lets just let people buy diplomas. Forget about 12 years of learning. Pffft. Who needs that. Just sell diplomas for 1k a pop. Now try the same reasoning. But but dude....it doesnt affect you if you want to learn for 12 years and the other dude just goes into Walmart and buys a college degree.

Now who would you rather be designing your office building? They crew who went to college for engineering, or the crew who got their proof of education from a cracker jack box?

You don't decide anything about me except how hard to buff my shoes.

I'm a great player, I've played for 6 years and I drink pots when I have a full mana bar because I feel like it. Everything that you've stated above is completely different than my perspective, so I'd prefer the game be changed by warranted negative experiences and not just the sky is falling forum posts.

Lots of faulty analogies on the boards this month. I want my office building built by people who are experts in building office buildings, not just a bunch of morons with degrees.

Don't drink pots if you don't like them.

[Chai]

Your under the assumption a DM has the right to limit anything as core as crafting feats. All crafting feats and spells found in RPGA accepted source books is material only very specific custom made settings can really limit, and then you better be doing alot to other classes as well if your going to deny players standard aspects of their class for no better reason then you dont like it. Otherwise the player is likely to dice bag you in the face, laugh at your dazed bloody look of shock, and rally the group to ditch you and go play real D&D at their house.

The DM has the right to limit whatever they feel needs to be limited in order to keep the flaor of their campaign going. Ive seen this claim of players picking up their dice bag and leaving alot on these forums, but I havent seen it happen in real life once. Born and raised in Wisconsin, ran tables at cons, tested most D&D editions - and not once did someone get whiney pouty drama queen enough to just pack it up and leave.

The more crafty DMs however didnt need to limit the players. What I did was min max and optimize as hard as the players did. It was fair and square when an NPC was min maxed just like their character was and attacked the players min with their max. Then they try to ask me why that wizard has such an insane DC, and I show them the breakdown, which is very similar to the party wizard, heh. Your character wasnt the only person in the world born with 18 int, 16 con, and an 8 in every other stat apparently....

I always rolled it out arbitrarily so I didnt get accused of metagaming just to teach people a lesson. Ive had it happen numerous times. Example: Spore shooting plant which attacked wisdom on a failed save, ended up attacking the min maxed player who dumped wisdom. Id go right around the table clockwise. A 1 means you, a 2 means you, a 3 means you, a 4 means you...and roll a 4 sider right in front of everyone. When EVERYONE in the group dumped wisdom, it dont matter whose brain the plant destroys first. if someone tried to accuse me of metagaming, Id show them the copyright on the module - far older than their characters are.

[Chai]

You don't decide anything about me except how hard to buff my shoes.

Sorry bro, you lost your ability to complain about any bad state of the game if you support that which creates that bad state in the first place. You made the bed. You sleep in it. Ima pull your card on this each time I see people who support pay to win antics peeing and moaning about the PUG scene or how people dont learn how to play the game.

I'm a great player, I've played for 6 years and I drink pots when I have a full mana bar because I feel like it. Everything that you've stated above is completely different than my perspective, so I'd prefer the game be changed by warranted negative experiences and not just the sky is falling forum posts.

Lots of faulty analogies on the boards this month. I want my office building built by people who are experts in building office buildings, not just a bunch of morons with degrees.

Don't drink pots if you don't like them.

To say pay to win that generated endless game balance circumvention doesnt affect those who dont use it is false. Continual repetition of the lie that it doesnt affect the game or anyone else in it doesnt make it true.

Hey, those guys building your office ARE experts in building buildings - they just got their papers to prove it from Walmart rather than going to college or apprenticing under actual engineers. By your logic this shouldnt be affecting you in any way shape or form.

[Gunga]

Sorry bro, you lost your ability to complain about any bad state of the game if you support that which creates that bad state in the first place. You made the bed. You sleep in it. Ima pull your card on this each time I see people who support pay to win antics peeing and moaning about the PUG scene or how people dont learn how to play the game.

Ok. If you're going to pull my right to complain, that must make you an expert, right? So, expert, are you actually getting up on a soapbox and, in front of the entire 12 people who post on these forums, proclaiming that pugs were awesome before mana pots went on sale?

You're a funny guy. lol

[Cendaer]

I can't believe this Mnemonic-Potion-Prohibition thread is still going.

What's next? Half-Orc sufferage?
.:.

[Ape_Man]

I can't believe this Mnemonic-Potion-Prohibition thread is still going.

What's next? Half-Orc sufferage?
.:.

Hell no, that's almost as crazy as letting them vote!

[Vint]

Why? Because endless mana potions teach people they can bypass the learning curve, dont need good character building, or better game understanding.

You might want to check again. There were are a ton of bad builds, and people that have never bothered to learn the game. This does not or did not change due to mana pots.