It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[Xandrel]

So for those that buy out of the store often, thank you.

Your welcome....

I go thru a stack of 100 every few months soloing alot. Bet Ive spent $1000 so far this year in the store.

If the store hadn't come out, I would of left the game years ago. Just dont have to time to wait around for groups and the grinding it takes to acquire gear.

Love the game enough to keep giving it my $$ for my 2 cents worth of game play, when I can get it in.

[Qhualor]

utter bunk chai.

As people move on in this game they realize that endless pot chugging cannot be sustained. The resources are just too expensive. Then the learning about mana conservation begins.

So yeah, it doesnt affect me in the least. and it doesnt affect you in the slightest because you arent running with the chuggers.

mana conservation should be learned in early levels, not when they run out of resources. resources are only as expensive to the player as he/she wants them to be.

if you have no problem with obtaining a lot of plat, you can buy them on AH. if you have a lot of TP and/or dont mind spending RL $, you can purchase from the store. droprates for mana pots was increased awhile back. i loot a lot of mana pots and see them a lot in my end rewards. people sometimes dont mind passing mana pots in chests and at some point during a quest/raid.

i know quite a few people who chug pots and some dont mind because they say they are having fun. they dont care much about their sp pool and like to mana dump on mobs. these chuggers may be the ones that can turn a failed quest into a completion, but i wonder how well they would do if all they had were clickies, sp pool and shrines.

[NancyD]

Stop it now Gunga...I already +1'ed you ta'day and can't anymore

Got ya covered.

[Rodasch]

How many of you folks who are against spell point potions want to volunteer to make up for the lost revenue to turbine if they stopped selling them in the DDO store? You ready to speak with your pocket book?

You willing to fail more in those instances when your healer or arcane in your party or raid drank a potion or two to carry you to victory after a screw up or unforseen issue from bugs that make the raid or mission take longer than it should?

You willing to see less people playing the game because the learning curve for them is less forgiving as they try to learn a blue-bar character and how to manage their resources and become a great player? Primary among these who will be less populous will be the healer archetype...meaning less healers for everyone and less people enjoying their game play unless they're already veteran players who don't need to have a healer to support them...

There are a whole chain of dominoes that will fall if that first one is pushed, and I don't think you've really looked at the whole picture.

Don't act like you've thought this all through and are willing to face all the actual consequences of what you're calling for, because you don't appear to have actually done that. You're still spouting the same emotionally blinded nerf-calls that have been spewed here for a long time.

[Vint]

How many of you folks who are against spell point potions want to volunteer to make up for the lost revenue to turbine if they stopped selling them in the DDO store? You ready to speak with your pocket book?

+1 areed.

I also wonder if they would mentor people in what mana conservation is? I doubt it. It is easier to just cruicfy people that use these options instead of teaching them how to live without them?

Come on fanboi's. Step up and mentor.

[Aashrym]

How many of you folks who are against spell point potions want to volunteer to make up for the lost revenue to turbine if they stopped selling them in the DDO store? You ready to speak with your pocket book?

You willing to fail more in those instances when your healer or arcane in your party or raid drank a potion or two to carry you to victory after a screw up or unforseen issue from bugs that make the raid or mission take longer than it should?

You willing to see less people playing the game because the learning curve for them is less forgiving as they try to learn a blue-bar character and how to manage their resources and become a great player? Primary among these who will be less populous will be the healer archetype...meaning less healers for everyone and less people enjoying their game play unless they're already veteran players who don't need to have a healer to support them...

There are a whole chain of dominoes that will fall if that first one is pushed, and I don't think you've really looked at the whole picture.

Don't act like you've thought this all through and are willing to face all the actual consequences of what you're calling for, because you don't appear to have actually done that. You're still spouting the same emotionally blinded nerf-calls that have been spewed here for a long time.

I pay my monthly sub and will continue to do so. My store purchases consist of hearts for the most part, but also bought some tomes and collectibles bags. The fact that I don't purchase store potions actually has me wondering how many players actually do and if that revenue is really that much tbh. I can see players chugging pots; where the pots came from originally is an unknown. Meanwhile I am still supplying revenue and will continue to do so.

I also heal with rarely a need for them too so the issue with healers needing them seems to be questionable from my perspective.

Higher failure rate is also not really a concern. Groups without the resources can use more strategy and complete slower.

I think the impact is hitting players who want to push the character beyond the limits originally intended for the characters but seriously doubt some restriction on SP potions spells the doom of DDO. When I think through the big picture I foresee the standard threads full of complaints and the game going on as the next carrot come along.

Something like a 30 second cool-down on all difficult setting but unlimited usage on casual and normal, 12/rest in hard and 6/rest in elite is still a lot of SP at a reasonable rate while curtailing some power gap in who can afford and who cannot. That's an example and numbers are adjustable.

I think emotionally blind is more accurate to some of the players who refuse to even discuss issues with SP potions, such as:

1) balancing content to challenge parties
2) relative contribution in the groups each of us is in and leading to point number 3
3) the enjoyment of game play for each member of the group
4) expectation variance among the variety of players as we join groups

These points potentially affect all players not chugging potions regardless of comments like, "don't use them". Even if I choose not to use them all it takes someone else who does to impact what I am doing as well.

[Masterspud]

did I miss something here? Mana pots are expensive, in the store and in whatever house you buy them in/ incomparison with having a good spell power item/a good set of sceptors that you can switch that boost various spell casting and simply using wands? Wands are silly cheap compared to pots and really conserve mana. Hell if you run the right quests enough some wand drops are eternal... Or am I just stupid?

[Aashrym]

+1 areed.

I also wonder if they would mentor people in what mana conservation is? I doubt it. It is easier to just cruicfy people that use these options instead of teaching them how to live without them?

Come on fanboi's. Step up and mentor.

I've seen Rodasch provide plenty of useful information to new players regardless of differences of opinion on SP potions. I think SP potions is more preference than sloppy play in most cases, personally.

My opinion is we have too much access to them and they are counter-intuitive to the game mechanics and intent behind limited spell points that don't naturally regenerate. I also don't want to be expected to use them, which would be my main concern.

EDIT: As far as mentoring SP conservation, it's pointless for someone who doesn't want to conserve and would rather blow throw SP. I see more players know how to do it and chug potions than players who need to chug potions when it comes to offensive casting. The need for chugging potions on healing is caused by trying to save something that already failed or the party shouldn't have been attempting in the first place.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Then there's no Mana in D&D either!

[Qhualor]

did I miss something here? Mana pots are expensive, in the store and in whatever house you buy them in/ incomparison with having a good spell power item/a good set of sceptors that you can switch that boost various spell casting and simply using wands? Wands are silly cheap compared to pots and really conserve mana. Hell if you run the right quests enough some wand drops are eternal... Or am I just stupid?

thats true, but how does that benefit melee blue bars? cant see too many putting away their greatswords for sceptors and wands when they are fighting along side the rest of the party. it would be a tedious juggling act like melees chugging pots between swings.

[Vint]

I've seen Rodasch provide plenty of useful information to new players regardless of differences of opinion on SP potions. I think SP potions is more preference than sloppy play in most cases, personally.

I am sure he is a great guy, and I had no intention of calling him out. This was being sent to people that are so caught up on how everyone else plays.

To some in this thread: If you are not going to help someone walk, dont take away their crutch.

[Masterspud]

Perfect!

I own this edition...

Marvelous!

[Masterspud]

I am sure he is a great guy, and I had no intention of calling him out. This was being sent to people that are so caught up on how everyone else plays.

To some in this thread: If you are not going to help someone walk, dont take away their crutch.

+1 to rep for this post!


100 percent on point!

[Masterspud]

thats true, but how does that benefit melee blue bars? cant see too many putting away their greatswords for sceptors and wands when they are fighting along side the rest of the party. it would be a tedious juggling act like melees chugging pots between swings.

I have seen plenty of melee chug pots between swings... and a its pretty **** easy for me to juggle wands and sceptors, I have this nifty little tool bar that lets me do it. If you are in the middle of the mob with a mage, your mage better have one bad ass staff or a sword in his hands. (I have seen them) it is not irregular, but if thats the case, your mage is in the middle of the mob, then chugging mana pots is not an immediate concern.

Melee should not be worried about their blue bar, why the hell should they? Since when does dps care if they run out of sp? Ask a healer for some DV... If you are dps and worried about a blue bar you have serious issues.

There is a very very old D&D term. Comes from Basic Edition D&D back in like 81 or something when I first started playing it.

It goes like this.

"I swing!".

You guys are getting way away from the game.

Play your toon and dont worry about how I play mine unless you are going to teach me something helpful. If you are going to hammer me for something I dont understand, and then not explain it, well then keep it. Because I will not learn anything and you will just look like a donkey.

Not that I do not have anything to learn, hell I have everything to learn, I am a newb at the online version of this game.

Now if you want to know everything about 1st and 2nd edition RPG... hehe, I will happily sit down and party with you for an entire weekend.

[Tirisha]

booo not another thread posted by some random person who thinks I should have to learn to manage my spell points!

[Rodasch]

I pay my monthly sub and will continue to do so. My store purchases consist of hearts for the most part, but also bought some tomes and collectibles bags. The fact that I don't purchase store potions actually has me wondering how many players actually do and if that revenue is really that much tbh. I can see players chugging pots; where the pots came from originally is an unknown. Meanwhile I am still supplying revenue and will continue to do so.

I also heal with rarely a need for them too so the issue with healers needing them seems to be questionable from my perspective.

Higher failure rate is also not really a concern. Groups without the resources can use more strategy and complete slower.

I think the impact is hitting players who want to push the character beyond the limits originally intended for the characters but seriously doubt some restriction on SP potions spells the doom of DDO. When I think through the big picture I foresee the standard threads full of complaints and the game going on as the next carrot come along.

Something like a 30 second cool-down on all difficult setting but unlimited usage on casual and normal, 12/rest in hard and 6/rest in elite is still a lot of SP at a reasonable rate while curtailing some power gap in who can afford and who cannot. That's an example and numbers are adjustable.

I think emotionally blind is more accurate to some of the players who refuse to even discuss issues with SP potions, such as:

1) balancing content to challenge parties
2) relative contribution in the groups each of us is in and leading to point number 3
3) the enjoyment of game play for each member of the group
4) expectation variance among the variety of players as we join groups

These points potentially affect all players not chugging potions regardless of comments like, "don't use them". Even if I choose not to use them all it takes someone else who does to impact what I am doing as well.

First, let me commend you for responding in an intelligent and rational manner.

Second, let me state that I am not personally against a timer for mnemonic potions, as I do not personally use them that often...I honestly do not need to. However, I am a veteran of the game both on DDO and PnP Dungeons and Dragons, and I have taken a great deal of time to read the forums and learn from some of the great players here, as well as took time to learn from great players actually in game. Not everyone has the time or actual social skills required to achieve the same thing easily, nor does everyone have the temperment.

My concern isn't one of personal desires or an aversion to losing an "easy button". My concern is for the longevity (thus profitability) of the game as a whole. I do not expect everyone who plays this game to play the same way I do, nor to have the same skill sets as I do. I do expect them to behave with a certain amount of social decorum and respect if they're going to deal with people (grouping, raids, talking to others, etc), but could care less about what they do if they're not interacting with others who do not share their behavior and play preferences.

What I do not want to happen, is for this game to become even more of a "haves" vs. "have-nots" environment, where the divide between long time players and veterans is an insurmountable barrier to newer or less-skillful players from feeling like they can achieve any measure of real success and thus drive them away to newer games where they start on a more even footing.

Spell point potions are a big part of softening the learning curve for newer players, especially with them remaining available both in game and from the store. Given their relative cost, however, they are not something most people will consider a permanent solution to conservation, but rather as crutches while they learn to walk.

Sure there will be a few people with more money than pride who decide to just brute force everything with potions and they will burn out on the game and leave as it gets "too easy" and "boring" for them. But they will be the minority by far...and when they leave, the "problem" of what they do will self-regulate by their exodus.

There is no need to punish the newer players in order to "protect" the overly wealthy or less-than-motivated players from themselves.

This is just my belief.

Now, to address your numbered points at the end:

1) Balancing content to challenge parties can be done regardless of the status of Mnemonic potions. Whether you want to recognize it or not, expenditure of mnemonic potions actually is an indication of how challenging the content is for the ones using the potions. Just because they can use them to beat it doesn't mean the content was any less challenging, it just means they came prepared with tools to overcome the challenge...If a 30 second to 1 minute timer were added, it would have next to zero impact on how many potions they used, as there are not many (if any) people who drink 2 potions that quickly anyway "just to succeed"...the ones who do drink them that fast do it for convenience, not for the reason that they were in dire need. Those in need drink just enough to get them through the need and to the next shrine.

2) Relative contribution to the group affected by far too many variables to pin down mnemonic potions as a major factor in any disparities. This is going to vary more based on the player and the actual class they play, and what content you're playing in than it is on how many sp someone uses.

3) Each member of the group's enjoyment of the game is their own responsibility. By this I mean they must make choices that best serve their own enjoyment without specifically hindering the enjoyment of others. You choose to group with people who complement your playstyle and personal enjoyment, and those you like. You choose a play-style that makes you happy. You do not set out to alter everyone's play-style to suit your desires just to make it so you can group with anyone at random and never run into your "pet peeve". That is like lobbying to get everyone who says the word "like" more than twice a paragraph put into behavior modification to change it, just so you'd never have to hear it at random when walking down the street. It doesn't hurt you, it just annoys you when you encounter it. Sure it's probably related to or symptomatic of other issues that may be making that person "less than optimal" in their social interactions, but they're happy and not hurting you.

4) Expectation variance will not be "fixed" by doing anything to mnemonic potions. Expectation variance is a psychological phenomenon based on exposure, experience, and the education. Teaching people to be more realistic, respectful, and rational in their expectations is a better solution...and those who cannot be taught, should be avoided until they learn to treat others better.

Again, these are my views, and you are entitled to disagree with me. I will not say everyone has to think the way I do, but they should at least respect that not everyone agrees with their way of thinking either.

[roryk27]

Wouldnt need to. Never have before on an arcane.

I'm still waiting for proof of this.

[Rodasch]

I'm still waiting for proof of this.

You expect him to produce irrefutable proof that never in all his game play did he use a potion? Your expectations are unrealistic. That's like me asking you to prove you've NEVER put your finger inside a cat's anus. You simply cannot irrefutably prove that unless you've been on video camera for 100% of your life and can show us the tape.

[Masterspud]

I'm still waiting for proof of this.

I am sure its possible, see, some folks have the ability to build a toon from the ground up and buy every tome at every level and on and on, and they are 'Uber Gamers' and leave the rest of us 'newbs' looking stupid in a dungeon as they zerg off and single handedly carry us the whole way through.... You know the type.

[Masterspud]

You expect him to produce irrefutable proof that never in all his game play did he use a potion? Your expectations are unrealistic. That's like me asking you to prove you've NEVER put your finger inside a cat's anus. You simply cannot irrefutably prove that unless you've been on video camera for 100% of your life and can show us the tape.

Smell my finger...