My pale master. Gear, build and more.

[EllisDee37]

If me not having quicken would cause a "party wipe," then - to be frank - the rest of the players suck. If it is incumbant on one player to carry the rest of the group, quicken isn't going to solve that problem. Period.

Quicken is 100% required for kiting shadows in ToD, which is pretty much always the arcane's job since you really want firewall to draw their aggro.

I just had to rerun ToD tonight because the arcane didn't have quicken which directly caused the party wipe. He swapped out epic mental toughness for quicken, we tried it again, easy completion.

[squishwizzy]

Quicken is 100% required for kiting shadows in ToD, which is pretty much always the arcane's job since you really want firewall to draw their aggro.

I just had to rerun ToD tonight because the arcane didn't have quicken which directly caused the party wipe. He swapped out epic mental toughness for quicken, we tried it again, easy completion.

I've been in that quest.

In each instance, the party leader had a main kiter/tank, and a backup. So again, that's a matter of planning, not someone missing quicken.

And just for my general information, if you are kiting - which is to run ahead of the mobs and keep them chasing you - how does quicken even help? I can see it if you are shadow tanking, but not kiting.

Honest question, not being snarky.

[Quickben1]

Even kiting, u'll need to renew ur firewall - i don't even want to think the non-quicken cloudkill, that would be hilarious- on almost each pass. As far for careful planning , you are indeed true in a way, if i was party leader and had to select between a run i have more than 1 arcane with me, if one had quicken and the other didn't , well, i'd have the one with quicken tank/kite and a hireling be the backup than having the non-quicken. No offense, just trying to point out that in some cases Quicken is helpfull, and on some others...it is demanded...
I did my first 3 caster lives w/o quicken, i had the feeling that i could do almost anything, but still i had something bugging me that i was more often on the edge than i really liked it, and tried the quicken way. In my case i kept empower + sacrificed extent. Best i'd say is , if u r not lazy of swapping feats, or TR'ing, try it urself and ignore the rest :P
Personal Experience accompanied with personal playing style >>>>> Other ppl telling you their own experiences.

Friendly QB

[squishwizzy]

You couldn't pick worse example, every time you cast disco in Shroud, a kitten dies somewhere.

As for quicken, you will get interrupted even in epic hard with 60+ concentration. It's not optional feat for palemaster. In heroic elites/epic hards you want to get hit constantly. In epic elites, you don't, but one arrow still interrupts you. Either way, it's necessary.

Ok, now THIS makes a little sense (with the exception of kittens dying somewhere, which only happens with Prismatic Ray).

Let me amend my comments a little.

I've come from AM toons. There is no need for quicken, with the exception of maybe a WF AM and their reconstruct. And I don't play WF toons.

Most of the stuff I do is from the back. And I work to avoid aggro and getting targeted. And frankly, ConOpp bracers don't proc enough to make a difference. Don't have a Torc yet for any of my toons. I completely understand that PM is a more frontline toon. If you're getting interrupted on a 60+, I concede taking quicken for a PM.

But I dispute the whole "party wipe" thing. There are (ideally) six members in a party. If you are running things that lean where if one guy falls, they all fall, it isn't a problem with that one guy...or the fact he doesn't have quicken.

Sorry, I just don't buy that.

[squishwizzy]

Even kiting, u'll need to renew ur firewall - i don't even want to think the non-quicken cloudkill, that would be hilarious- on almost each pass. As far for careful planning , you are indeed true in a way, if i was party leader and had to select between a run i have more than 1 arcane with me, if one had quicken and the other didn't , well, i'd have the one with quicken tank/kite and a hireling be the backup than having the non-quicken. No offense, just trying to point out that in some cases Quicken is helpfull, and on some others...it is demanded...
I did my first 3 caster lives w/o quicken, i had the feeling that i could do almost anything, but still i had something bugging me that i was more often on the edge than i really liked it, and tried the quicken way. In my case i kept empower + sacrificed extent. Best i'd say is , if u r not lazy of swapping feats, or TR'ing, try it urself and ignore the rest :P
Personal Experience accompanied with personal playing style >>>>> Other ppl telling you their own experiences.

Friendly QB

Honsetly, when it comes to firewall, I just time them, and overlap them. I do the same with Ottos.

Cloudkill is one of those spells I've never really used. Just never had a specific application, or a huge call for it.

[EllisDee37]

I've been in that quest.

In each instance, the party leader had a main kiter/tank, and a backup. So again, that's a matter of planning, not someone missing quicken.

And just for my general information, if you are kiting - which is to run ahead of the mobs and keep them chasing you - how does quicken even help? I can see it if you are shadow tanking, but not kiting.

Honest question, not being snarky.

We only had 1 arcane in the group.

Your mention of AM reminded me why you probably don't see any use for quicken: you haven't really self-healed on an arcane yet. Sure, when there's a divine healing you you don't need quicken. You also can leave the shadow kiting in tod to somebody else.

Did you do tod on your am? Did you kite the shadows?

[Andoris]

But I dispute the whole "party wipe" thing. There are (ideally) six members in a party. If you are running things that lean where if one guy falls, they all fall, it isn't a problem with that one guy...or the fact he doesn't have quicken.

Sorry, I just don't buy that.

Okay.. I'll bite (it was my comment after all )

Your right, you shouldn't be intentionally putting yourself in a party wipe situation, but it does happen. Not every person runs every quest perfectly -- and there are times when someone in the party accidentally or unknowingly pulls to many mobs at once. In those cases a well placed CC can mean the difference between many deaths (potential wipe) and a harmless mistake. When playing EE content, where mobs are hitting for an average of 160 per swing,with spikes that go much higher, there is no way concentration is going to cut it. With quicken you kick off the CC spell grab half of the mobs, giving the party time to deal with the situation.

So yes, if you always play perfectly, and everyone you play with doesn't ever make a mistake then you can likely run without quicken (excepting ToD). Personally, I know I am not that good, and I also play with a wide variety of players (many times PUG groups) on some of the hardest content. I know that quicken can save the quest if things go bad -- On the flip side, I can't think of a single time where having empower would do the same.

So, if you are playing easy content (ie anything below EE) or only playing with guild/channel groups -- Quicken is maybe not required -- but in those cases neither is empower.

If you are running EE content, and you want to be the person that saves the day once in a while -- then Quicken is the clear choice.

[Ellihor]

if most of the mobs in gianthold are in the 350-450 hp range, using empower could very well mean a huge difference in the number of 1-shot kills. I can't see troll hit points. If anyone can, could you step into Trial By Fire on elite solo and report back what the troll hit points are? Maybe also check with a group of 2 or 4.

On elite trial by fire trash torlls have from almost 500 to a bit more than 700 solo. On hard they have from 300 to 500. Note that the ones with more hp also have resistance to fire and cold of arround 40.

[squishwizzy]

We only had 1 arcane in the group.

Your mention of AM reminded me why you probably don't see any use for quicken: you haven't really self-healed on an arcane yet. Sure, when there's a divine healing you you don't need quicken. You also can leave the shadow kiting in tod to somebody else.

Did you do tod on your am? Did you kite the shadows?

Yes, I did ToD on my AM. No I didn't kite shadows, mainly because I was told flat-out that if I didn't have A, B, and C for cold resistence gear, I wasn't able to kite the shadows. This was in virtually every run, with the exception of those who had shadow kiters.

The people they did use were Sorcs, Monks, and Pallys generally. I don't recall any PM's being used.

[squishwizzy]

Okay.. I'll bite (it was my comment after all )

Your right, you shouldn't be intentionally putting yourself in a party wipe situation, but it does happen. Not every person runs every quest perfectly -- and there are times when someone in the party accidentally or unknowingly pulls to many mobs at once. In those cases a well placed CC can mean the difference between many deaths (potential wipe) and a harmless mistake. When playing EE content, where mobs are hitting for an average of 160 per swing,with spikes that go much higher, there is no way concentration is going to cut it. With quicken you kick off the CC spell grab half of the mobs, giving the party time to deal with the situation.

So yes, if you always play perfectly, and everyone you play with doesn't ever make a mistake then you can likely run without quicken (excepting ToD). Personally, I know I am not that good, and I also play with a wide variety of players (many times PUG groups) on some of the hardest content. I know that quicken can save the quest if things go bad -- On the flip side, I can't think of a single time where having empower would do the same.

So, if you are playing easy content (ie anything below EE) or only playing with guild/channel groups -- Quicken is maybe not required -- but in those cases neither is empower.

If you are running EE content, and you want to be the person that saves the day once in a while -- then Quicken is the clear choice.

Ok, so let me turn this around a bit, because I see where this is all coming from:

Basically, the advice being given is that if you intend on doing EE content, Quicken is almost mandatory.

If you are not doing EE content, Quicken may not be required.

Frankly, I don't do a lot of EE, mainly because there are not a lot of PUGs on my server that put out LFMs for EE content. There is some, from time to time, but most of the stuff runs EH.

I'm not a "perfect player" in any sense of the term either. But I've been in enough PUGs to know that you can usually tell from the first maybe 5 minutes of a quest whether it is going to be successful, or if it is going to bomb. And the bombs are usually not the result of one player, but several.

And, well, if it is incumbant on one player to save the day...well...you're screwed. Not that it doesn't feel good to be that one player, but you're still screwed.

[trog_star]

personally i like quicken.

I like diving into mobs, hitting wail and knowing i wont fail a concentration check.
I like hitting my Neg Burst and knowing i wont fail a concentration check.
I'm to impatient for Disco Ball and the fog/cloud spells full casting animation.

is there any fundamental reason you can't play without Quicken?
no. no there is not.

Is there some fundamental reason I can't play without quicken?
yes, i would have to change my playstyle

[EllisDee37]

Ok, so let me turn this around a bit, because I see where this is all coming from:

Basically, the advice being given is that if you intend on doing EE content, Quicken is almost mandatory.

If you are not doing EE content, Quicken may not be required.

Frankly, I don't do a lot of EE, mainly because there are not a lot of PUGs on my server that put out LFMs for EE content. There is some, from time to time, but most of the stuff runs EH.

I'm not a "perfect player" in any sense of the term either. But I've been in enough PUGs to know that you can usually tell from the first maybe 5 minutes of a quest whether it is going to be successful, or if it is going to bomb. And the bombs are usually not the result of one player, but several.

I stand arm in arm with you on all these points.

I also have never kited shadows, but after yesterday's wipe I decided it's time to flag my PM, get him boots, and craft up a gs cold absorption item. So much to do! hehheh.

[Andoris]

Ok, so let me turn this around a bit, because I see where this is all coming from:

Basically, the advice being given is that if you intend on doing EE content, Quicken is almost mandatory.

If you are not doing EE content, Quicken may not be required.

I agree with this statement -- If you are doing EH and below Quicken is nice (I would still take it over empower) but you can get by without it.

Stepping into EE without Quicken, and your in for a difficult time

[Ellihor]

edit: meh somewhy when i was writting i probably clicked something wrong and posted twice

[Ellihor]

- Level 15 character with a +1 caster level item
- Maxed base damage enhancement line (eg: Frost Manipulation VII, available at level 13)
- Not using the named ML14 90 spell power challenge items (tier 3 ML16 w/masterful) because chaosrobe means no frozen tunic
- Therefore using standard ML14 spell power items = 81 spell power from items (72 +9 implement)
- Spending 12 AP on improved meta lines, whatever saves the most (Maximize III or Maxi II + Emp II)
- Spending 1 item slot on an efficiency item (eg: crafted efficient meta II of major lore trinket)
- Drinking meridia pots for stacking 15 spell power

Base damage
75 Cone of cold (max is 15d3+45=75) for 20 sp
75 Ball lighting (max is 15d3+45=75) for 20 sp
80 Otliuke's freezeing sphere (16d3+48 @ CL16) for 25 sp
80 Delayed blast fireball (16d3+48 @ CL16) for 30 sp

Spell power
81 item
100 enhancements
15 meridia potion (+15 pots are ML13, +20 pots are ML19)
----
196 spell power = 296%
150 maximize
----
346 = 446%
75 empower
421 = 521%

Metamagic spell point cost
12 maximize alone (improved maxi III + efficient maxi II item)
26 maximize + empower (improved maxi II, improved emp II, efficient maxi II item)

Cone of Cold & Ball Lightning
222 damage for 20 sp (no metas)
335 damage for 32 sp (maximize only)
391 damage for 46 sp (maximize + empower)

For these two spells, maximize alone adds 51% damage for 60% extra mana. Seems a little inefficient but not terrible.
Using both maximize & empower adds 76% damage for 130% extra mana. If this were the only option, I'd do it.

Using "just maximize" as the base and comparing what the "with empower" adds, empower adds 17% more damage for 44% more mana. This is where I can't justify it.

Otliuke's freezeing sphere
237 damage for 25 sp (no metas)
357 damage for 37 sp (maximize only)
417 damage for 51 sp (maximize + empower)

Here empower adds 17% more damage for 38% more mana. Certainly better, but still doesn't look particularly worth it.

Delayed blast fireball
237 damage for 30 sp (no metas)
357 damage for 42 sp (maximize only)
417 damage for 56 sp (maximize + empower)

And finally, empower adds 17% damage for 33% more mana. It's starting to get not terrible. Clearly it gets better as you get higher level spells, which could help explain why the OP suggests waiting until high levels to take empower.

Considerating Enhancements Efficiency for max II and empower I + item max II (taking more than that is an absurd): metamagic spellpoint cost =
max: 25 - 6 ap - 4 item = 15 sp
emp: 15 - 2 ap = 13 sp
quicken: 15 sp
heighten: lv 5 base 20 + 15 from heighten, lv 6 base 25 + 10 from heighten, lv 7 base 25 + 5 heighten -- > AOEs spells cost 78 sp full meta and 65 sp without empower (DBF 73 full meta 60 no empower). These calcs are considerating lv 15 wizard pure (lv 8 spells). Taths 19.11% more spellpoint cost (21.67% DBF). If you take lesser quicken I and lesser heighten I (for me thats a waste of ap):
lv 5 AOE = 78/65 - 1 lesser quicken - 3 lesser heigthen = 74/61 for a 21.3% spellpoint cost increase
lv 6 AOE = 78/65 - 1 lesser quicken - 2 lesser heighten = 75/62 (21% more sp)
lv 7 AOE = 73/60 - 1 lesser qicken - 1 lesser heighten = 71/58 (22.4% more sp)

Other advantages of empower:
-mobs die faster means they cant kill you, thats important when you are zerging and have a lot of them arround ready to hit you, very important for mobs with crowd crontrol and behos
-more efficiency when mobs have energy resistance
-more nuking capability means you kill selkf heal mobs with less sp than without empower depending of the mob
-more 1 shot kills
-klling mobs faster means xp faster
-also i run with only spellpower potency from staff of petitioner since lv 14 and combustion 72, so 75 spellpower means a bit more for me
-If you dont run quicken and heighten, ok have a nice day. For me its an absurd 'hit in my life quality' dont use quicken since lv 11 (taking ~1 sec to cast am aoe, realy, how you live with that?) and seeing reflex save over the head of a mob.

[EllisDee37]

-If you dont run quicken and heighten, ok have a nice day.

I don't. You have a nice day too.