Human WIzard Solo Play question

[goodspeed]

aye, human wise pale. Archmage wise either WF or helf with a cleric dili for heal options. Stat spreads always 18 int, rest in con. Unless you were going helf for the heal scroll route then id be more 18 int, 16 con, rest in wis to get the base of 13.

But dc is what ur gonna want. And ur gonna wanna stack er every single way possible. Plus then theirs the spell pen, that's fun hitting elite evil outsides, even more when you hit those **** drow of the under dark. But thats where the discussion of tring for stuff and or going elf for their inherent spell pen comes in. However that to could also change when race becomes more of a hard choice in a build.

[Therigar]

There's a pretty strong consensus in this thread: you seem to be arguing against it more for the sake of arguing than anything. The general consensus has been that archmage is great until around level 12, then the self-healing of a palemaster wins out.

The only way I'd consider there to be a consensus would be if the OP came back and said, alright I'm entirely convinced that pale master is the answer to my question.

They have not done that. So we have an open debate on whether to run pale master, archmage or a utility wizard with no prestige at all.

But the most important thing is that even if we ALL agree that pale master is the best choice there is still the question of how best to go about building it.

As a side-note, the OP specifically said planning on not cross-classing, which you seemed to have ignored in your posting thus far.

Actually, if you read through my responses, I do make note of this. I also address many of the other things being discussed by referring the OP to the free reincarnation that they have available and discussing the decision on whether to adjust stats or not. You will also note that I'm the only one who has taken note of OP's initial build which gives them a min/max wizard with a default 18 INT and 18 CON.

So, while I did discuss the possibility of a utility wizard with monk (rather than the more common rogue) I also acknowledged that OP might not be interested in that at all because of their comment on not multiclassing.

[Therigar]

Also, this is severely limiting your arsenal when up against a monster with SR, since now you only have a couple of spells to play with, and the great thing about a wizard is the versatility of their arsenal.

I don't get this part of your post. How does a point or two difference in INT give only a couple of spells to play with?

Soloing is difficult as it is, and pretty much what makes wizards (imo) so good at soloing is:

A. fairly easy self healing, either wf and repair, or palemaster and death auras.

B. effective at all aoe spells, which includes the damage ones (firewall and such), but also includes stuff like dancing ball and wail.

If I cast a dancing ball, then capture monsters in it and cast wail and run around inside, with a DC/Spell pen wizard, I should be able to kill at least 2 or 3 monsters, probably more. In the end it is the OP's choice, but there seems to be a lot of info missing from your posts.

If there is info missing from my posts it is because others are providing it or because the suggestion has difficulties.

You'll notice that all of your responses, as an example, still deal with spells that have either SR or saves or both. Why would I put that information out there when my focus is on two things: 1) using spells that permit neither SR nor save or 2) avoiding the SR and only attacking the saves (and this second really is not my preferred approach -- I've only entered that discussion to show that wizards are in fact nukers contrary to what others have posted, my appreciation to Lord_Thantos for unwittingly showing that to be the case with the "wizards are for DC" argument).

So, if I'm leaving something out it is because it is either well covered by others or because I don't think it is high on the list of what could be done.

[WruntJunior]

The only way I'd consider there to be a consensus would be if the OP came back and said, alright I'm entirely convinced that pale master is the answer to my question.

They have not done that. So we have an open debate on whether to run pale master, archmage or a utility wizard with no prestige at all.

But the most important thing is that even if we ALL agree that pale master is the best choice there is still the question of how best to go about building it.



Actually, if you read through my responses, I do make note of this. I also address many of the other things being discussed by referring the OP to the free reincarnation that they have available and discussing the decision on whether to adjust stats or not. You will also note that I'm the only one who has taken note of OP's initial build which gives them a min/max wizard with a default 18 INT and 18 CON.

So, while I did discuss the possibility of a utility wizard with monk (rather than the more common rogue) I also acknowledged that OP might not be interested in that at all because of their comment on not multiclassing.

There isn't open debate in this thread. It's pretty much everyone pointing out that you're wrong in saying things like not maxing int on a first-life wizard is no big deal - everyone who has leveled and geared out a first-life wizard knows that every point of DC makes a LOT of difference. Lowering your int is arbitrarily lowering your ability to handle ANY situation in the game with a wizard - your nuking spells are less effective, your instant-kills are less effective, and your cc is less effective.

I'm quite frankly seeing an astonishing amount of bad advice from you in this thread: indirectly suggesting that a first life wizard should be trying to solo RwtD WITHOUT being extremely familiar with it (or pretty much any of vale...I could see doing it on normal, but without being extremely geared and prepared, not having knowledge of the quests makes this very difficult), indicating that spell penetration is not important (that stat is actually more important now than DCs in epic levels, especially for anyone that may ever want to do EE on their wizard), indicating that maximizing DCs is unnecessary (anyone who has played a DC-based caster will disagree with you here), saying that palemaster is not necessarily superior because it makes mainly one quest a bit more challenging (even though it offers significant self-healing and significant 0SP killing options),and recommending a bad build to the OP because it makes soloing slightly easier during the early levels (a /2 monk splash that will not have significant melee abilities in high levels). As a result, your posting in this thread comes across as trolling, and many people have been posting to point out that you are wrong in your points (going against the grain only counts if your controversial idea is actually a good one). At this point in the thread, literally no one is agreeing with you - maybe you should take that as a sign that you should re-examine your points to see why that is, rather than assuming everyone else is wrong and you are right.

My recommendation to the OP goes unchanged: archmage until level 12, palemaster from then on out, stay pure, max int, and put at least 16 into con. A pure wizard is extremely easy to solo to 20 (going slower if you don't know the content, or zerging if you do). Around the time you enter Gianthold, instant-kills make questing extremely easy, too (circle of death is especially nice, as it's almost as good as wail, though lower-level). As long as you keep up death aura and have negative energy burst ready for emergencies, as well as slotting any good health/dc gear you can find (as well as the basics, like spell power items and spell point items), everything should go great.

Edit: At this point, unless something new develops, there is no point in me continuing to reply to this thread - it is merely degenerating into a squabble. I've stated my side as strongly as I could, so I'll leave it at that.

[Therigar]

Edit: At this point, unless something new develops, there is no point in me continuing to reply to this thread - it is merely degenerating into a squabble. I've stated my side as strongly as I could, so I'll leave it at that.

I feel the same way.

Neither side can convince the other. What is frustrating to me is that I try to point out to you that everything you say is true within the limits that you place on how to play the character class.

But, if you take those limits off there is an alternative.

You are right, spell penetration is very important on epic levels. That isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about doing 20 heroic levels. So if we take away the constraint you put out there and stick to the constraint that the OP placed on the thread we have a different discussion.

You are right that maximum DC is very important and INT plays a big role in that. It can be as much as half the DC being added to the base 10 start point. And, if the only thing you are willing to consider are spells that allow saving throws then you absolutely win the debate -- because you have to have the DCs.

No question about it.

What frustrates me is that I go to the effort to illustrate to you that players need neither spell penetration nor DC and still you respond about how important it is and about how incredibly bad my advice is.

Which tells me that you are stuck on only looking at the world from one perspective. You are not at all interested in examining the possibility of playing your character with a spell inventory that is almost exclusively built around no penetration and no DC.

If you cannot work within that framework then there is no question that you will continue to say max INT is the only way to build. Because this is the limitation you have put on yourself.

I find it incredibly bad advice to put that limitation on others. There is nothing wrong with going the route you are advocating. But that is not the only route open to players. It is not even the only route open to pale masters.

What I am saying is that there are other possible ways to approach playing wizards.

And, IMO the OP deserves to hear the alternatives. They may decide I'm crazy and that they don't want to give it a go. Someone else who has tried doing it the way I'm suggesting might come along and say, he's crazy it didn't work.

But, simply stating that most people do things a particular way so that makes it the only solution is wrong. Gone by almost unnoticed are posts by people who prefer archmage to pale master. But, they were content to simply state their perspective and move on.

What has driven this thread is the unwillingness of the pale master crowd to let an alternative idea go past that isn't in keeping with their "doctrine" of how to build or play the character. It is only this group that insists on, as sirgog called it, shouting down another POV.

So, if you're tired of the discussion because you cannot step back and look at it from a different perspective, because you have to stay within the well defined parameters of your own thought process, you are right -- if that is the situation then there is no need to continue the discussion.

You see, I do understand your point of view. I am more than willing and able to admit that if I constrain myself to playing the character as you have defined it must be played that maximum spell penetration and maximum spell DCs are an absolute necessity.

But, if I open up my thinking and look at the real challenges I can see that there is an alternative. Can you see the alternative? If so, can you describe it? After describing it, do you have anything that causes it not to work?

Once you get to the point of understanding the alternative and how it works then you can make the easy step to seeing why class levels are irrelevant and why it is alright to splash. You can make the easy step to seeing why INT is not sacrosanct but can be less than 18 or 20 at character creation.

Just because those things are alright and can be done without gimping the character doesn't mean that everyone should run out and do them.

They only are alright if the build stays within the rather tight framework of concentrating on no resist no save spells. If a player isn't willing to do that, if they do not have the full concept and willingness to walk it all the way through then the build will be gimp. If they try to use it like a conventionally built pale master then the build will be gimp.

But, it is only gimp if it is used the way you insist it must be used. As soon as you understand that there are other ways to play the character it stops being gimp.

In an advice thread it is all about giving alternatives and letting the OP choose what they feel most comfortable with. And, in that sense I don't care one way or the other what OP chooses -- archmage, pale master, no prestige, whatever. What I do care about is giving as many alternatives as seem appropriate.

Because the criteria for this thread is level to 20 soloing there are some things that might be worth considering that would not apply if grouping or planning on epics.

Nevertheless, I agree that this thread has just about run its course.