Human WIzard Solo Play question

[Merlin-ator]

Group to level 12, then swap out Archmage for Pale Master. You can be eligible for both prestiges at the same time, but you can only take 1 of them.

[Therigar]

Moreover my damage spells do lots of damage and mastery in 4 elemental lines help greatly to overcome tough situations.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. To instant kill Ghaele it is necessary to cast the spell before the Ghaele can cast death ward -- which is what I said -- and this is why the enlarge metamagic is so important.

But, if that fails then direct damage spells work just fine.

Is that what you said? Because if it is then you just illustrated perfectly what I have been telling readers in this thread.

In spite of all the hype about how critical spell penetration is and how the best possible thing is to instant kill everything around, it is quite possible to go through life simply relying on direct damage spells.

The Ghaele are a good example of this. They have the ability to cast death ward and when it is up they cannot be instant killed. They have very high spell resistance, so even if you attack them before they cast death ward your instant kill might not work. And then, if the instant kill gets though the spell resistance the Ghaele might still make its Fort saving throw and be unaffected or take limited damage. But, they can be killed by direct damage spells.

Direct damage spells are not affected by spell resistance. Some of them do not allow saving throws. And, building around direct damage spells is a legitimate alternative to the present mindset.

Even for a pale master.

[Therigar]

The reason why I didn't use lich form is because I was level 16-17 as I said earlier, so I didn't have lich form, so staying in Wraith form had no extra benefit as most of the mobs there were caster types.

Lich form gives no special advantage to spell penetration. The reason to have the enlarge metamagic is to increase the range of the spell you cast. This, combined with a high draw distance so that you can see the mobs, permits you to cast your Finger of Death before the mob alerts to you.

Ghaele have spell resistance. What you need to defeat them is spell penetration. Lich does nothing to help this. What lich form does is it gives you an effective +2 to FoD after spell resistance is bypassed. It helps defeat the Fort save that the Ghaele will get.

The lich form doesn't give a special benefit against caster types -- which your statement seems to imply. It does give a boost to the DC of necro spells when the Fort save is attempted.

But, the real reason you did not run in undead form was because the mobs are caster types. And, because they are divine casters spamming light based spells (for which there is no spell resistance and no saving throw) their spells hurt. What is more, when in undead form your character takes double damage from those spells.

This is the reason you did not run in undead form. It has nothing to do with your level or the advantages that lich form might give.

[Therigar]

Group to level 12, then swap out Archmage for Pale Master. You can be eligible for both prestiges at the same time, but you can only take 1 of them.

Good advice if the stated goal wasn't to solo to L20.

[Therigar]

I'm making the assumption that as a PM he would like to make optimal use of a) spells which are best leveraged as a PM and b) as wide a variety of spells as possible.

The fact is, other than straight nuking spells (if you want to spend 90% of your time nuking play a sorc) the vast majority of your most used and most useful spells allow a save and SR. This applies to wail, FoD, circle of death, dancing ball, mass hold, mass charm. PWK and irressitable dance only allow SR, but are also used more situationally. Web only allows save. You want all these spells to work at optimal effectiveness and a first lifer will not have the DCs to make more int trivial. Sure, a wizard has more tricks in the bag and certainly needs to shape his spell selection to the scenario, choosing the right saves to target, using no SR spells against drow, etc, but your best core spells allow saves (and SR, yes I know int doesn't affect SR) and need to be optimized. Advising him that every point of int is non-essential is rubbish advice.

Every point of INT has value but players must weigh that value against what else can be gained for the same number of build points.

Is there anyone who would give away 20 or 40 hit points on any build? I mean, just strip them away and never, ever, have them?

No. But, we don't hesitate to tell people that it is alright to build characters with 16 or 14 CON. Why is that? It is because the build points can be used more efficiently in bringing other attributes to a build.

In some cases this is true. In others it is not. Just as an example, in a different thread I comment about a 6 rogue/12 artificer/2 what ever build using mechanic and battle engineer to get INT on repeaters for both hit and damage. On a build of that type a player could very well put every build point into only INT and CON. There is very little utility in any other stat.

However, there is often utility in saving build points and distributing them elsewhere. This is why we often give the advice about 16 or 14 CON being sufficient.

What I am saying here is that for first life characters who plan to solo to L20 it is probable that 16 INT is sufficient. It is -1 DC on saving throws. It is not going to break the character. It is not going to stop the character from doing well in epic content if the player's goals move to that. It won't even prevent the character from doing well in epic elite content.

Remember that we are discussing a first life human character made using the default archmage wizard construction from DDO. Everyone here realizes that this default build starts with 18 INT and 18 CON in a full min/max -- we all do realize that don't we?

So now, when talking about coming down off those numbers, we first off are going to be telling OP that they have to use a free lesser reincarnate and rebuild the character back to its current level.

A lot of the discussion then is focused on how to go about that rebuild. And, if OP does not want to go through that rebuild then all of the talk about how much INT or how much CON or how this stat might help or how that stat might help -- that whole discussion is meaningless.

So, now, let's take a short moment and look at just how much difference +1 DC will make.

In searching the forums I've had trouble finding info on epic elite. But what I've seen about epic hard is that DC of ~45 is the target.

Anyone want to do the calculation on reaching a 45 DC?

Here, I'll try.

10 base DC starting point
09 heighten metamagic and ability to cast L9 spells
04 18 starting INT
03 6 stat increases to INT
04 +8 INT item
02 +4 INT tome
01 Pale master lich form INT bonus
01 Pale master lich form necro bonus
01 ship INT bonus
01 spell focus
01 greater spell focus
01 spell focus mastery (Napkin)
02 +3 INT enhancements with +1 exceptional INT
--
40

Help me get the rest of the way.

Now, go backwards. What DC works in heroic elite?

Is something in the range of 33 going to work? What can I give up out of the list of things to get that much DC?

Will it kill the character if some of it comes at the expense of INT?

In fact, after ratcheting back, what is the lowest possible INT to still get to that DC number?

After you do those calculations then let's talk again about how essential maximum INT is.

[pelenor]

I solo mostly with a 16th level Archmage. I have a staff that adds to my Evocation discipline so my Chain missiles and Magic Missiles, with Meta's active do extreme amounts of damage and only use between 2 and 10 spell points. I use DOT spells, such as Electric Loop, for Bosses. I have to say i still bring potions along and use a summoned to help but I mostly am okay for most Adventures. But as everyone has said, play with what is fun for you thats the main point. I got a lot of help from the posters in this forum and I love being an Archmage.

[the613]

In searching the forums I've had trouble finding info on epic elite. But what I've seen about epic hard is that DC of ~45 is the target.

Anyone want to do the calculation on reaching a 45 DC?

Here, I'll try.

10 base DC starting point
09 heighten metamagic and ability to cast L9 spells
04 18 starting INT
03 6 stat increases to INT
04 +8 INT item
02 +4 INT tome
01 Pale master lich form INT bonus
01 Pale master lich form necro bonus
01 ship INT bonus
01 spell focus
01 greater spell focus
01 spell focus mastery (Napkin)
02 +3 INT enhancements with +1 exceptional INT
--
40

Help me get the rest of the way.

unless this person is willing to throw a ton of real cash at this toon, all the way to 24/25 they probably have at best a +2 tome, so 1 less DC from there. Until 20, most likely will only have a +6 or lower stat item, so 1 less there. So a more reasonable untwinked, maxxed int, build at 20 will have a max Necro DC of 38. This was my DC on my 18/2 build until I got a +2 or +3 Necro DC item, and I can tell you, I failed alot. So your telling them that going below that will help them?

the more reasonable numbers say they will fail about 60% of the time, assuming your number is the "20 or fail" number for the monsters. you're suggesting dropping this percentage to 55% or lower, and you don't see the problem? If you have to cast 2 fods to kill 1 mob, I can see why you think direct damage is better.

You seem to be thinking of just pure heroic levels and pure epic levels. I just outlined what would happen when transferring from heroic to epic levels, and you also haven't taken into account availability of certain items. a level 14 caster won't have +8 items, heighten will only get them 7 spell levels, etc. In theory, we should throw up a chart of what the saves are going to be at every level, but I'm not spending my time on it.

[Deathdefy]

For context, I'd trade 100HP from my already very squishy (at ~450HP) end-game wizard for +1 DC.

No other stats remotely compare to int. Then no other stats compare to con.

The remaining stats' pros and cons are at least in the same ballpark. And that ballpark can just see the con ballpark on the horizon. The int ballpark is 4 billion light years away.

So, now, let's take a short moment and look at just how much difference +1 DC will make.

In searching the forums I've had trouble finding info on epic elite. But what I've seen about epic hard is that DC of ~45 is the target.

Anyone want to do the calculation on reaching a 45 DC?

Here, I'll try.

10 base DC starting point
09 heighten metamagic and ability to cast L9 spells
04 18 starting INT
03 6 stat increases to INT
04 +8 INT item
02 +4 INT tome
01 Pale master lich form INT bonus
01 Pale master lich form necro bonus
01 ship INT bonus
01 spell focus
01 greater spell focus
01 spell focus mastery (Napkin)
02 +3 INT enhancements with +1 exceptional INT
--
40

I'm on board with a +8 item and +3 insightful int item being highly likely for a first-lifer. A +4 Int tome not so much, but it's about what's possible so no problems for me.

01 Epic Spell Focus: Necro feat
02 +3 Necro item (only adding +2 not +3 since you've added in non-stacking +1 from the Stormreaver's Napkin already?!)
02 Human Int Adaptability + 3 Insightful INT item
01 Yugo pot
03 Spell focus from Magister Destiny
03 Int from Magister Destiny (probably just 5 int from the tree, then Echoes: Magister from Fatesinger as a twist)
--
52

Obviously without EDs, you drop 6 points.

So while it is 7 entire points over the bizarre 45 DC threshold, 45 DC is not no-fail in EH.

EDIT: And in Heroic Elite, I was never at the point of being universally no-fail in the elite content I was running for Bravery throughout the entire life. I ended up with a DC 42 at 18 I think, and IQ2 Humans + Amrath death effects were only at about 60-80%.

EDIT 2: I'm bowing out of this thread now since I'm finding it increasingly frustrating. Some of the advice being given is very sketchy and speaks either to a lack of experience with the class or intentional trolling. I wouldn't even have written this post if the thread wasn't directed at and likely being read by new players!

[Therigar]

Here is the thing that I'm trying to get at here.

What I have talked about so far is knowing the spell and the mob. Some mobs have very high Will saves, others have very high Fort saves. And, just like with character classes, this can be different depending on the mob's class. (Edit: For example, if you manage to get thru a Ghaele's spell resistance then you probably will have success with your Finger of Death because as a cleric it is more likely to fail Fort than Will -- OTOH, if you get thru the spell resistance then your hold spell probably still won't succeed because as a cleric the Ghaele is more likely to make the Will save. Better would be to attack Reflex as this is the lowest of their saves.)

If a player uses a Will based spell against a mob that has high Will saves then they will see a lot of spell failure. If a player uses a Fort based spell against a mob that has high Fort saves the same will happen.

So, DC in and of itself is somewhat of a trap -- since the knowledge surrounding DC must be combined with choosing the right spell type.

I am entirely certain that DCs in the high 30s are what is more likely for a well geared character and that DCs in the low to mid 30s are what most players are getting. It is really pretty certain that players don't have all of the items listed and, in fact, I don't expect them to. Choosing out classed gear is just a way of speaking to the way in which we approach the DC challenge.

So, my view is that it is highly probable that a lot of spells do not ever get past spell resistance. I know that this isn't related directly to DC but it is important to understand. For a very large number of players it never gets to the saving throw because the spell just gets resisted.

Next, as everyone is pointing out, spells that permit saving throws are likely to be saved against. Numbers being tossed out (and I'm certain these are swags based off of the posters' gut feelings) are that spells fail 30-40% of the time due to saving throws. Certainly anything being done to alter that appears to be a smart thing.

So, what can be done?

One thing is players can stay pure class to boost spell penetration to its fullest. Another is that they can max the casting stat to reach for the highest possible DC against saving throws.

This is what everyone (except me, obviously) keeps saying to do.

But, there is another choice.

Use spells that permit neither spell resistance nor saving throw.

Spells in this grouping include Magic Missile, Chain Missiles, Force Missiles, Niac's Biting Cold, Ice Storm, Shocking Grasp, Eladar's Electric Surge, Melf's Acid Arrow, Acid Fog, Black Dragon Bolt.

Notice that with a combination of force, cold, electric and acid spells it is highly unlikely that any mob will be resistant to every choice. Notice as well that some of these are available as SLAs to Archmages.

Now, I understand how other posters are going on and on about me not knowing anything. But, if you go all the way back to the first parts of this thread you will see that I've been saying all along that the talk about spell penetration and DCs is the wrong focus point. I've been saying all along that players need to choose their spells with the mob in mind. I've been saying all along that players need to study the mobs and know what is likely to work best.

Why would anyone build a Wizard knowing that they are going to fail 30-40% of the time when they cast spells? Is that really the smart thing to do?

What if your spell could land 100% of the time and do its full allowance of damage 100% of the time? Wouldn't that be the better choice?

So, what we have here now is absolute agreement among all of the posters that Pale Master is going to fail at spell penetration and fail at overcoming saving throws.

And the best answer is more levels and more INT.

I think not.

The best answer is where I started early on in the thread -- choose spells that don't permit spell resistance or allow saving throws.

At L15 wizards have access to L8 spells. Instead of casting and hoping what if the wizard used a spell that was 100% certain to do damage?

I appreciate that people don't think wizards should be nuking mobs. But, what is the spell point cost of a maximized Black Dragon Bolt? By lucky coincidence it is exactly the same 40 spell points as Finger of Death.

But, if you have to use enlarge to reach the mob and heighten to get maximum spell penetration then FoD runs another 15 spell points for that L15 wizard. Again, by happy coincidence, this is exactly the amount of extra spell points that would be spent if Black Dragon Bolt were empowered.

So, the wizard isn't spending more spell points. They are not casting and hoping that the spell succeeds. They are never concerned about spell penetration. They are never worried about saving throws. And, they are equally efficient in terms of spell cost.

Now the only question becomes if one shot is enough to kill.

After all, this is the real appeal of Pale Master and necro spells -- the instant killing of mobs.

But, if the instant kill spell isn't going to succeed in one shot and has to be cast two or three times, if the crowd control spell has to be cast in two or three locations, how is that any different from casting two or three direct damage, no resist, no save spells?

Lastly, because every mob is different a player can still keep available the instant kill spells for the mobs that are highly susceptible to them. (Edit: Here is why I'm saying the INT isn't so important. There is a difference in using no resist, no save spells as the primary and instant kill as the backup instead of instant kill as the primary and savable direct damage spells as the backup.)

And this is what I'm trying to get everyone to understand.

[the613]

Here is the thing that I'm trying to get at here.

What I have talked about so far is knowing the spell and the mob. Some mobs have very high Will saves, others have very high Fort saves. And, just like with character classes, this can be different depending on the mob's class. (Edit: For example, if you manage to get thru a Ghaele's spell resistance then you probably will have success with your Finger of Death because as a cleric it is more likely to fail Fort than Will -- OTOH, if you get thru the spell resistance then your hold spell probably still won't succeed because as a cleric the Ghaele is more likely to make the Will save. Better would be to attack Reflex as this is the lowest of their saves.)

If a player uses a Will based spell against a mob that has high Will saves then they will see a lot of spell failure. If a player uses a Fort based spell against a mob that has high Fort saves the same will happen.

So, DC in and of itself is somewhat of a trap -- since the knowledge surrounding DC must be combined with choosing the right spell type.

I am entirely certain that DCs in the high 30s are what is more likely for a well geared character and that DCs in the low to mid 30s are what most players are getting. It is really pretty certain that players don't have all of the items listed and, in fact, I don't expect them to. Choosing out classed gear is just a way of speaking to the way in which we approach the DC challenge.

So, my view is that it is highly probable that a lot of spells do not ever get past spell resistance. I know that this isn't related directly to DC but it is important to understand. For a very large number of players it never gets to the saving throw because the spell just gets resisted.

Next, as everyone is pointing out, spells that permit saving throws are likely to be saved against. Numbers being tossed out (and I'm certain these are swags based off of the posters' gut feelings) are that spells fail 30-40% of the time due to saving throws. Certainly anything being done to alter that appears to be a smart thing.

So, what can be done?

One thing is players can stay pure class to boost spell penetration to its fullest. Another is that they can max the casting stat to reach for the highest possible DC against saving throws.

This is what everyone (except me, obviously) keeps saying to do.

But, there is another choice.

Use spells that permit neither spell resistance nor saving throw.

Spells in this grouping include Magic Missile, Chain Missiles, Force Missiles, Niac's Biting Cold, Ice Storm, Shocking Grasp, Eladar's Electric Surge, Melf's Acid Arrow, Acid Fog, Black Dragon Bolt.

Notice that with a combination of force, cold, electric and acid spells it is highly unlikely that any mob will be resistant to every choice. Notice as well that some of these are available as SLAs to Archmages.

Now, I understand how other posters are going on and on about me not knowing anything. But, if you go all the way back to the first parts of this thread you will see that I've been saying all along that the talk about spell penetration and DCs is the wrong focus point. I've been saying all along that players need to choose their spells with the mob in mind. I've been saying all along that players need to study the mobs and know what is likely to work best.

Why would anyone build a Wizard knowing that they are going to fail 30-40% of the time when they cast spells? Is that really the smart thing to do?

What if your spell could land 100% of the time and do its full allowance of damage 100% of the time? Wouldn't that be the better choice?

So, what we have here now is absolute agreement among all of the posters that Pale Master is going to fail at spell penetration and fail at overcoming saving throws.

And the best answer is more levels and more INT.

I think not.

The best answer is where I started early on in the thread -- choose spells that don't permit spell resistance or allow saving throws.

At L15 wizards have access to L8 spells. Instead of casting and hoping what if the wizard used a spell that was 100% certain to do damage?

I appreciate that people don't think wizards should be nuking mobs. But, what is the spell point cost of a maximized Black Dragon Bolt? By lucky coincidence it is exactly the same 40 spell points as Finger of Death.

But, if you have to use enlarge to reach the mob and heighten to get maximum spell penetration then FoD runs another 15 spell points for that L15 wizard. Again, by happy coincidence, this is exactly the amount of extra spell points that would be spent if Black Dragon Bolt were empowered.

So, the wizard isn't spending more spell points. They are not casting and hoping that the spell succeeds. They are never concerned about spell penetration. They are never worried about saving throws. And, they are equally efficient in terms of spell cost.

Now the only question becomes if one shot is enough to kill.

After all, this is the real appeal of Pale Master and necro spells -- the instant killing of mobs.

But, if the instant kill spell isn't going to succeed in one shot and has to be cast two or three times, if the crowd control spell has to be cast in two or three locations, how is that any different from casting two or three direct damage, no resist, no save spells?

Lastly, because every mob is different a player can still keep available the instant kill spells for the mobs that are highly susceptible to them. (Edit: Here is why I'm saying the INT isn't so important. There is a difference in using no resist, no save spells as the primary and instant kill as the backup instead of instant kill as the primary and savable direct damage spells as the backup.)

And this is what I'm trying to get everyone to understand.

The problem with this argument is you are assuming:

A. every monster in the game has spell resistance

AND

B. the wizard in question is ONLY using Necro spells, and therefore almost entirely Fort save DCs.

If either of these things fail, then your argument is invalid. As a palemaster, I would suggest also picking up Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (if possible) in Enchantment. now you have reasonable DCs in both Will and Fort, and can therefore target the weak save of any mob.

Also, about your thoughts on picking spells that have no spell resistance and no saves, if you want damage output, I have a better solution (imo). Go palemaster, use masters touch + greataxe or other tactics to get to 7, firewall/acid rain/Ice storm to 12, then pick up pm 2 and wraith form. Now, go into form, cast an Extend Death Aura (may not be extendable any more) for 35 sp, and fire necrotic bolts. 35 sp for 2 minutes of free nuking, I'm pretty sure that's more sustainable then your suggestion.

Spell pen is the biggest problem for a first life wizard imo, and this is one area that really needs to be taken real care of. the loss of 1 DC due to going to 16 int is not that much of a problem compared to the 2 spell pen loss from splashing 2 monk or 2 rogue.


I want to point out that your spell setup would be more useful for a sorcerer, which has pres based on +direct damage and a larger sp pool. I infact built a flavor build that is a battle sorc with the idea of forgoing every DC based spell possible. In the end though, the OP will do what he/she wants, and we are just wasting space in their thread.

[Lord_Thanatos]

If you are going to make a build that doesn't focus on the main wizard strength, DCs-based spells. Then why make a wizard instead of a sorcerer? If you are going to go for nuking first and DC-based spells second, aren't you building like a sorcerer? That type of wizard is a sorcerer that has less SP, slower cast times but a larger spellbook.

Not maxing Int and splashing on a wizard means you sacrifice at least 2 DCs (Going 16 int AND losing the capstone which is +2 int) Losing two DCs means that you are negating getting the two spell focus feats completely and the rest of the spells that you don't have spell focus feats suffer even more. I guess you never plan to use disintegrate, one of the more important spells for dealing with mobs with lots of immunites? (Like liches and golems)

Finally, do parties want/expect wizards that sacrifice spell DCs and spell pen for other things while not really increasing their DPS or utility in any other way? A few points of DC can mean the difference between a Mass hold only working on a few mobs (2-3) or getting a majority of them (5-6).

PS: Losing the capstone makes it so that all your heightened spells are even more inefficient compared to a pure, max DCed wizard.

[Therigar]

The problem with this argument is you are assuming:

A. every monster in the game has spell resistance

AND

B. the wizard in question is ONLY using Necro spells, and therefore almost entirely Fort save DCs.

No, I'm assuming neither of these things.

For the first it is simply a matter of overcoming saving throw and that is usually, but not always, possible. So we can safely ignore the first part of the equation -- defeating SR -- and move on to the second, saving throws. If the mob isn't going to make its saves then by all means instant kill to your heart's content.

However, if it does save then we are right back where we started -- with the need to throw multiple spells.

Next, instant kill spells fall into several different schools -- necro (wail, finger, cod), illusion (pk), conjuration (pwk). But, they all have the same characteristics -- they all permit SR and they all have a saving throw.

As for your Fort/Will bit and the enchantment school.... Enchantment spell enhancements don't impact your DC against a save type. It improves your DC with a particular school. It is the source of most of the crowd control spells -- things like Otto's or holds or charms. Web though is conjuration (and the only of these that doesn't permit spell resistance).

So, I'm not sure what you think you are saying with pale masters take spell focus in enchantment for better DCs against Will. Pale masters take the enchantment school because they are planning for crowd control and trying to up the CC DC.

Lastly, Death Aura is indeed a no SR, no save spell. By all means use it. No need to be a pale master to take it though. Any wizard can use it. Necrotic bolt has a Fort save.... But, it is cheap to use if you happen to be a pale master.

Of course, an archmage using cheap magic missile SLA has a similar effect but with something that cannot be saved against. The main difference is that pale master with Death Aura running is self healing fast enough that the HP lost to necrotic bolt isn't noticed while the archmage's SLA costs them spell points.

Probably a win for the pale master.

Now, seeing that you are grasping the concept, what happens if the pale master is using the various available no SR, no save spells as their primary point of focus while simultaneously exploiting undead form and death aura/necrotic bolt where it is beneficial. What if they relegate their instant kill spell casting to mobs that won't have SR and that they know they can beat on the Fort save?

What do you have then?

And now, someone, tell me how that INT matters or why we have to remain pure class....

[Therigar]

If you are going to make a build that doesn't focus on the main wizard strength, DCs-based spells. Then why make a wizard instead of a sorcerer?

There are several reasons.

First, sorcerers have a different spell progression than wizards. Wizards carry more spells than sorcerers. And, they get higher level spells sooner.

Second, wizards have more versatility than sorcerers. This dynamic has changed some with the ability to use dragonblood to swap spells or to pay for spell swaps at the trainer. But many players find it less cumbersome to build complete spell books as wizards and then just swap to useful spells depending on the quest.

Third, some people play character classes out of nostalgia. I have a wizard in training that is an homage to an old PnP NPC that I use to run. I've found that I'm not alone in building characters based on old PnP characters.

Fourth, some people are running for past life feats. Wizard past life is incredibly useful at +2 spell penetration per life (to a maximum of +6).

But, I would ask why make a wizard instead of a sorcerer if you are focusing on DC based spells. What do you think wizard gets that improves their DC that sorcerer cannot get?

I'm interested in your response.

[Therigar]

Finally, do parties want/expect wizards that sacrifice spell DCs and spell pen for other things while not really increasing their DPS or utility in any other way?

Since this thread was started by someone who wants to solo to L20 the issues of group dynamics are not really very important. At least they are not if we are staying on topic.

But, to answer your question directly, there are many builds that are 18/2 wizard/something and parties don't whine about them. Check out your server and you'll see lots of these builds in various stages of development.

Among the builds on my server right now there is a wizard with 1 level of fighter and 1 of rogue, several with 2 rogue, one epic with 2 monk -- all told 17 with 2 non wizard classes.

Really, for 99% of groups this isn't a problem. So, even if the OP was talking about grouping instead of soloing, it isn't genuinely an issue.

[WruntJunior]

Since this thread was started by someone who wants to solo to L20 the issues of group dynamics are not really very important. At least they are not if we are staying on topic.

But, to answer your question directly, there are many builds that are 18/2 wizard/something and parties don't whine about them. Check out your server and you'll see lots of these builds in various stages of development.

Among the builds on my server right now there is a wizard with 1 level of fighter and 1 of rogue, several with 2 rogue, one epic with 2 monk -- all told 17 with 2 non wizard classes.

Really, for 99% of groups this isn't a problem. So, even if the OP was talking about grouping instead of soloing, it isn't genuinely an issue.

I don't know if you're aware, but you can quote people multiple times in one post. Stop spamming posts.

As a side-note, the thread has been long settled that going pure palemaster is the best bet for a human wizard unless there was a different plan from the onset, as without foreplanning, it's possible to rather screw up a wizard trying to do unusual builds - especially for something like splashing to gain slightly better low-level melee capability. What you're arguing now has very little to do with the OP, though you keep claiming it does.

[Lord_Thanatos]

There are several reasons.

First, sorcerers have a different spell progression than wizards. Wizards carry more spells than sorcerers. And, they get higher level spells sooner.

Second, wizards have more versatility than sorcerers. This dynamic has changed some with the ability to use dragonblood to swap spells or to pay for spell swaps at the trainer. But many players find it less cumbersome to build complete spell books as wizards and then just swap to useful spells depending on the quest.

Third, some people play character classes out of nostalgia. I have a wizard in training that is an homage to an old PnP NPC that I use to run. I've found that I'm not alone in building characters based on old PnP characters.

Fourth, some people are running for past life feats. Wizard past life is incredibly useful at +2 spell penetration per life (to a maximum of +6).

But, I would ask why make a wizard instead of a sorcerer if you are focusing on DC based spells. What do you think wizard gets that improves their DC that sorcerer cannot get?

I'm interested in your response.

Wizards get more DC from their Prestige (+2 to necro as PM or +2 to primary as AM), Their capstone gives them +2 int (+1 DC) and more efficient metamagics (most beneficial to heighten).

The biggest thing that makes a wizard better then a sorc with DC-based spells on average? Feats. Feats gives many bonuses to DC-based casting, from spell penetration feats to spell foci feats, and a wizard can get them without sacrificing the standard feats to get. (Maximize, Empower, Quicken, Toughness) The lack of the wizard bonus feats means that a sorcerer without past lives either has to, sacrifice spell foci feats, or spell penetration feats or are you going to sacrifice being a Savant to get those feats (require spell focus evo or conj). So a average wizard will have another +1 or +2 DC bonus over the sorc because of feats. (ignoring spell pen atm)

A pure elf wizard, with the right EDs and gear break through EE Saves/SR with some reliability on a first life. Please show any sorcerer that can accomplish that without multiple-past lives.

Finally, wizard versatility was almost always been about leveraging situational non-nuke spells to suit a situation. There is not enough APs to use all the elemental nuke spells equally as well, so every arcane ends up choosing which elements to specialize in and which spells to use as your secondary elements. Changing elements constantly either means constantly switching enhancements or switching to spells that are weaker because of the constraints of a build.

What is left are the situational DC-base spells and buffs. Buffs tend to worth equally with both and most buffs in the higher spell levels are easily scrolled (IE. GH). So whats left are spells like undead to death, flesh to stone and etc, and If you don't have the DC to use those effectively, then you end up squandering the versatility that a wizard provides.

[Therigar]

As a side-note, the thread has been long settled that going pure palemaster is the best bet for a human wizard unless there was a different plan from the onset, as without foreplanning, it's possible to rather screw up a wizard trying to do unusual builds - especially for something like splashing to gain slightly better low-level melee capability. What you're arguing now has very little to do with the OP, though you keep claiming it does.

I am unaware of any post indicating that it has been settled that going pure pale master is the best for a human wizard. To the contrary, a recent post argues for going with archmage. And, the OP's original post indicated they had started the build with the default archmage offered by DDO.

The only place it is settled is in the minds of people who insist on looking only at the pale master prestige. If you will go back several posts you will find one in which I quote each of the OP's posts to this thread. In those they indicate that they will try both prestige enhancements and make a decision after giving each a try.

So, the thread is still very much about answering the OP. If it is something else it is because those carrying on about pale master as the only solution simply refuse to consider alternatives.

[Therigar]

Wizards get more DC from their Prestige (+2 to necro as PM or +2 to primary as AM), Their capstone gives them +2 int (+1 DC) and more efficient metamagics (most beneficial to heighten).

The biggest thing that makes a wizard better then a sorc with DC-based spells on average? Feats. Feats gives many bonuses to DC-based casting, from spell penetration feats to spell foci feats, and a wizard can get them without sacrificing the standard feats to get. (Maximize, Empower, Quicken, Toughness) The lack of the wizard bonus feats means that a sorcerer without past lives either has to, sacrifice spell foci feats, or spell penetration feats or are you going to sacrifice being a Savant to get those feats (require spell focus evo or conj). So a average wizard will have another +1 or +2 DC bonus over the sorc because of feats. (ignoring spell pen atm)

A pure elf wizard, with the right EDs and gear break through EE Saves/SR with some reliability on a first life. Please show any sorcerer that can accomplish that without multiple-past lives.

Finally, wizard versatility was almost always been about leveraging situational non-nuke spells to suit a situation. There is not enough APs to use all the elemental nuke spells equally as well, so every arcane ends up choosing which elements to specialize in and which spells to use as your secondary elements. Changing elements constantly either means constantly switching enhancements or switching to spells that are weaker because of the constraints of a build.

What is left are the situational DC-base spells and buffs. Buffs tend to worth equally with both and most buffs in the higher spell levels are easily scrolled (IE. GH). So whats left are spells like undead to death, flesh to stone and etc, and If you don't have the DC to use those effectively, then you end up squandering the versatility that a wizard provides.

Alright. Now I have to ask you, what is the purpose of spell DC? I think you agree with me that its purpose is to defeat saving throws.

In the vast selection of spells there are those that must defeat spell resistance, those that must defeat saving throws, those that must defeat both spell resistance and saving throws, and those that do not have to defeat either.

The general parameter of this discussion is being set by those arguing for pale master as the prestige of choice. So let's look at that -- again.

The primary spell school for pale master is going to be necromancy because that is the prerequisite for the prestige enhancement. As I have continually pointed out, in order for these spells to work they must defeat both spell resistance and saving throws.

After that the pale master generally specializes in one school. But, as you point out, with an abundance of feats coming from wizard bonus feats the wizard can gain boosts in a lot of places.

For example, a human wizard at L25 can have 1 human bonus feat, 9 standard feats and 6 bonus feats. Those might be:

Spell Focus: Necromancy
Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
Maximize
Empower
Heighten
Enlarge
Extend
Quicken
Toughness
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Spell Focus: Conjuration
Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration
Spell Focus: Enchantment
Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment

So, what we see is that wizards can gain an advantage in the DC arena. No sorcerer can get so many different feats or build up so many extra areas.

The best a sorcerer might do is to use the 1 human bonus feat and 9 standard feats to do something like this:

Spell Focus: Necromancy
Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Maximize
Empower
Heighten
Enlarge (or maybe Toughness)
Quicken (or maybe some other feat)

Now, I've intentionally selected necromancy to show that the DC on those spells is not automatically higher on wizards. Where wizards have the advantage is that they can select at least 2 additional schools.

Next, let's take a look at enhancements. You claim that wizards cannot really focus in on every elemental spell area. But, they are much better off than sorcerers in this regard.

The sorcerer prestige enhancements very strongly encourage sorcerers to become masters of a single elemental spell type. The vast majority of sorcerers are presently focused on cold spells. Any time a build comes to the forum focusing on a different element it ends up trying to justify itself.

What is it that sorcerer prestige gives? It gives +6 to the caster level in that element. What is it that caster level is used for, is it increasing the difficulty class of the spell or is it increasing spell penetration? I think you know the answer.

What does that have to do with spell power? In the case of sorcerers it makes the opposing element significantly weaker. As a result the sorcerer usually ends up something of a one trick pony. Sorcerers are constantly jockeying to find the one element that works best at end game. That target keeps shifting as more and more end game content is added. And, it often shifts as the character is leveling since fire is exceptionally powerful in the mid ranges while ice becomes the go to element in the higher levels.

But, the simple reality is that sorcerers by design are masters of a single elemental magic.

Wizards are able to boost several elements. First, they are able to boost them through school selection -- the DCs that we've been talking about. Next, they can get greater utility out of the elemental enhancements because they have no opposing elemental types where penalties are applying.

It was akash who was bragging about having significant mastery over four elements. So the AP is there if wizards choose to use it in that way.

What does this tell us about the casting nature of wizards v sorcerers?

To me it says that if I want a character that is multifunctional and equipped to nuke mobs that the better choice is wizard. Of course, I answered that criticism once when asked why wizard if I wanted to attack mobs directly.

So let's get to the heart of things.

What spells require DC but not spell penetration? The most obvious answer is direct damage spells. What class is best able to boost DC? Wizard. What class should be using direct damage spells? Sorcerer....

Huh? How is it that people get there? The answer to what class should be using direct damage spells is wizard.

Sorcerers are best within one elemental type. Outside of that they are no more powerful than wizards and are likely weaker.

As an example, you are no doubt aware that most damage spells are from the evocation school. With spell focus and greater spell focus and epic spell focus that is +3 to the DC of all elemental damage spells. While a sorcerer can have this, and likely does instead of the necromancy I gave them above, the wizard can have this AND the necromancy if they want it. What is more, if they focus on direct damage they don't need spell penetration feats. So they could actually have as many as 3 schools covered.

What does that mean? It means that by ignoring spell resistance (most direct damage spells don't give SR) the wizard is going to be MORE likely to beat saving throws than the sorcerer.

So, if I have been advocating choosing direct damage over spell penetration (I have) and choosing spells that require neither spell penetration nor DC (I have) it is because I comprehend that wizards are actually MORE capable than sorcerers.

This is true even for pale masters.

The biggest worry for people is spell points. Wizards do have fewer spell points. But, if we look at it closely we will see that sorcerers actually need the extra points. If they are in a quest where their primary element is of little or no value they are spamming whatever backup they have and generally with much less effect.

FWIW, you are right about elf wizards and spell penetration. I'll just point out that the topic of the thread is Human Wizard. So, yes but not really applicable to the discussion.

[WruntJunior]

I am unaware of any post indicating that it has been settled that going pure pale master is the best for a human wizard. To the contrary, a recent post argues for going with archmage. And, the OP's original post indicated they had started the build with the default archmage offered by DDO.

The only place it is settled is in the minds of people who insist on looking only at the pale master prestige. If you will go back several posts you will find one in which I quote each of the OP's posts to this thread. In those they indicate that they will try both prestige enhancements and make a decision after giving each a try.

So, the thread is still very much about answering the OP. If it is something else it is because those carrying on about pale master as the only solution simply refuse to consider alternatives.

There's a pretty strong consensus in this thread: you seem to be arguing against it more for the sake of arguing than anything. The general consensus has been that archmage is great until around level 12, then the self-healing of a palemaster wins out. The only way this wouldn't be true would be if the OP was a multi-TR with high umd, a half-elf with enough wisdom for cleric dilly, or a warforged - as a first-life human, archmage has nothing on palemaster for soloing to cap simply because the self-healing option is nowhere near as strong on a human arhcmage.

For the OP's purpose (soloing to level 20), unless he makes a completely new character with a completely new build plan (in which case, a utility wizard could be good just for getting to cap if nothing else - that is, a 2 rogue splash), a pure palemaster wizard is his best bet, especially as a player who is new to wizards. As a side-note, the OP specifically said planning on not cross-classing, which you seemed to have ignored in your posting thus far.

[the613]

No, I'm assuming neither of these things.

For the first it is simply a matter of overcoming saving throw and that is usually, but not always, possible. So we can safely ignore the first part of the equation -- defeating SR -- and move on to the second, saving throws. If the mob isn't going to make its saves then by all means instant kill to your heart's content.

However, if it does save then we are right back where we started -- with the need to throw multiple spells.

Next, instant kill spells fall into several different schools -- necro (wail, finger, cod), illusion (pk), conjuration (pwk). But, they all have the same characteristics -- they all permit SR and they all have a saving throw.

Based on the way you were acting, I thought you seemed to think that these thing would be effective all the time. The point of saying necro spells is they all target fortitude save, giving you only 1 save to work against, which is why I talked about enchantment (see below).

As for your Fort/Will bit and the enchantment school.... Enchantment spell enhancements don't impact your DC against a save type. It improves your DC with a particular school. It is the source of most of the crowd control spells -- things like Otto's or holds or charms. Web though is conjuration (and the only of these that doesn't permit spell resistance).

So, I'm not sure what you think you are saying with pale masters take spell focus in enchantment for better DCs against Will. Pale masters take the enchantment school because they are planning for crowd control and trying to up the CC DC.

I'm saying this because Enchantment spells tend to target Will saves, as opposed to the Fort save of necro spells. If you have both, you choose the general weaker save of the monster to use against them. Melee monsters coming at you? Hold or Dancing ball. Some casters raining spells down on you? using finger or wail. Now do you understand?

Lastly, Death Aura is indeed a no SR, no save spell. By all means use it. No need to be a pale master to take it though. Any wizard can use it. Necrotic bolt has a Fort save.... But, it is cheap to use if you happen to be a pale master.

Of course, an archmage using cheap magic missile SLA has a similar effect but with something that cannot be saved against. The main difference is that pale master with Death Aura running is self healing fast enough that the HP lost to necrotic bolt isn't noticed while the archmage's SLA costs them spell points.

Probably a win for the pale master.

Now, seeing that you are grasping the concept, what happens if the pale master is using the various available no SR, no save spells as their primary point of focus while simultaneously exploiting undead form and death aura/necrotic bolt where it is beneficial. What if they relegate their instant kill spell casting to mobs that won't have SR and that they know they can beat on the Fort save?

What do you have then?

And now, someone, tell me how that INT matters or why we have to remain pure class....

Even against no SR monsters, INT matters a ton. INT + spell level + feat/item bonuses is where you get your DCs, and lose too much INT, and you won't be hitting anything with spells with any save. Also, this is severely limiting your arsenal when up against a monster with SR, since now you only have a couple of spells to play with, and the great thing about a wizard is the versatility of their arsenal.


I have already stated I am fine with flavor builds, but this poster didn't say they wanted a flavor build, they wanted something to solo to 20 with. Soloing is difficult as it is, and pretty much what makes wizards (imo) so good at soloing is:

A. fairly easy self healing, either wf and repair, or palemaster and death auras.

B. effective at all aoe spells, which includes the damage ones (firewall and such), but also includes stuff like dancing ball and wail.

If I cast a dancing ball, then capture monsters in it and cast wail and run around inside, with a DC/Spell pen wizard, I should be able to kill at least 2 or 3 monsters, probably more. In the end it is the OP's choice, but there seems to be a lot of info missing from your posts.