Rogue DPS post U14

[.Revenga.]

I have to disagree with this. Most folks have around a +50 to hit. So thats only +2 or +3 bonus to hit. I know every bit helps, but, I would not call it a 'large' bonus to hit.

afaik the % bonus applies to you total % chance to hit, not a % of you current to hit number. which means it's somewhat of a +20-40 to hit number bonus depending on your to hit and the mob's AC.

[karl_k0ch]

afaik the % bonus applies to you total % chance to hit, not a % of you current to hit number. which means it's somewhat of a +20-40 to hit number bonus depending on your to hit and the mob's AC.

Using the formula in this post, one can deduce that a change from +25% (from proficiency) to +30% (from proficiency and precision) has effectively the same effect as a to-hit bonus worth .1 times the mob's AC bonus (i.e. +1 for mobs with 10 AC, +5 for mobs with 50 AC, and so on). Luckily, this does not depend on your to-hit at all.

Edit: I see this post as a more detailed explanation of your post. To me, 'does not depend on to-hit' is a special case of 'does depend on to-hit'.

[.Revenga.]

Using the formula in this post, one can deduce that a change from +25% (from proficiency) to +30% (from proficiency and precision) has effectively the same effect as a to-hit bonus worth .1 times the mob's AC bonus (i.e. +1 for mobs with 10 AC, +5 for mobs with 50 AC, and so on). Luckily, this does not depend on your to-hit at all.

yeah, it doesnt depend, was just comparing to an equivalent to hit bonus. Been a while since i calculated that stuff, could be i'm off :-p

[Jaid314]

the short version is that it adds 5%, no multiplication required. if you're hitting 55% of the time, it makes you hit 60% of the time. precisely how much to-hit that's worth is unclear, but regardless it is a nice bonus, and is a DPS increase even on 0 fortification mobs for by far the vast majority of people playing the game (if anyone happens to have like a +500 to hit, precision is probably not the way to go for them i suppose)

[kierg10]

Rogues are still one of the best dps classes.

With Shadowdancer, their usefulness is even better thanks to the Tier5 Autogrants that let you SA mobs otherwise immune.

Also, SD grants 6d6, 21 avg damage to each hand, a really big dps increase.
Most rogues uses finesse weapons, 3% profane doublestrike that you can't get anywhere else.
On top of that, another 3d6 from Improved Sneak attack that most rogues SHOULD have, 10.5 avg damage per hand.
All the melees will twist Sense weakness, 1d8 + 1d12 + 1d20. All of these togheter and your rogue just gained 42 avg damage per swing (+10.5 avg if the mob has <25% health). All of these with Haste boost and Haste.
Add Tunnel Vision Twisted, 6.5 avg damage = 48.5 avg damage.

The Epic moment is really lame thou, 2d6 damage. It's not worth getting it.

Most will argue about Rogue's DPS against bosses. Well, it's not MUCH of a problem anymore.

Precision: 25% Fort bypass
Opportunist: 10%
Grim Precision: 15%

That's already 55% fort bypass. At the moment, on elite, bosses have 80% max fortification. Add to that Improved Deception, Dark Elusion (T5 Autogrant) and Improved Destruction and you will SA even bosses almost full time.


Not only their dps is better but their survavibility is.

My rogue (finesse build), not building for it, has a 15% dodge chance. Add to that Shadowform, another 25% dodge chance. Blurry, ghostly, smoke screen and scrolled/clickies displacement and a lot of damage is avoided.

Also, most rogues forget about Improved Uncanny Dodge. That's 50% dodge for 30 seconds every 2 minutes.


At the moment Shadowdancer is still a bit broken thou (SHOULD be better with U16 but some tests confirm that it's still broken). If you want to have fun with big numbers, Fury of the Wild is really fun. With Adrenaline (+400% damage with main hand) you can hit the 1000 dmg mark if the mob is helpess (+400 from SA, Sense weakness and all other weapons mod).

In the end, as said at the beginning of the reply, they are still one of the best DPS class all around. And they can do traps, scrolls etc etc.

A couple things:

1) 25+15+10=50 not 55

2) Many rogues do not have haste boost (like my halfer rogue for example) because there are a lot of other good enhancements that make that not viable as an option, so don't include that in automatically

3) Not all melees twist in sense weakness, some like other enhancements

Other than that I agree

[kierg10]

Sadly enough it's a 100% no brainer to go human. I'd really like halfling to be viable again, i liked being halfling.

halfer is still viable. just because you think not viable=not FOTM doesn't make something not viable.

My halfer rogue does just fine. My guildy' halfer rogue does more than fine.

[Mellkor]

afaik the % bonus applies to you total % chance to hit, not a % of you current to hit number. which means it's somewhat of a +20-40 to hit number bonus depending on your to hit and the mob's AC.

O nice!

I did not know it worked that way. It is indeed a nice bonus then. I have been using it, but I still have to say I have not really noticed a difference in to hit tho. I certainly have noticed a big difference in damage output!

[.Revenga.]

halfer is still viable. just because you think not viable=not FOTM doesn't make something not viable.

My halfer rogue does just fine. My guildy' halfer rogue does more than fine.

Not viable is maybe too strong. The point is going human over halfling only has benifits at this moment.

Not taking haste boost on a rogue is plain stupid tho. If you don't have haste boost, your rogue is not doing 'fine'.

Twisting sense weakness is a no brainer too, there is nothing that offers something that comes even close to it's usefullness (other then the 15% fort bypass, but that's shadowdancer ED).

[Jaid314]

Not taking haste boost on a rogue is plain stupid tho. If you don't have haste boost, your rogue is not doing 'fine'.

yeah, i can understand deciding you don't want to max out haste boost (at the end you're paying 4 points for a relatively smaller increase) but at least grab the first couple of tiers. there really isn't anything even remotely close to what that brings for important fights.

[Therigar]

there really isn't anything even remotely close to what that brings for important fights.

The two most important things to me in any difficult fight are rogue haste boost and bluff.

[Therigar]

The point is going human over halfling only has benifits at this moment.

I think that race choice is something of a personal choice. What some see as clear benefits others do not place as much value in. In a game where it is difficult to have everything players make intentional choices. Race is one of those areas where personal choice favors one race over the other.

Twisting sense weakness is a no brainer too

Not really. It depends on if a player is willing to put in the work to get the required fate points. It is entirely possible that they are not -- or that other aspects of their build plans make this a low priority.

While it certainly is a great epic it is far from a "no brainer." I might go so far as to contend that it is only a no brainer for players willing to grind destinies until sufficient fate points have been unlocked.

[WruntJunior]

Not really. It depends on if a player is willing to put in the work to get the required fate points. It is entirely possible that they are not -- or that other aspects of their build plans make this a low priority.

While it certainly is a great epic it is far from a "no brainer." I might go so far as to contend that it is only a no brainer for players willing to grind destinies until sufficient fate points have been unlocked.

One thing for people to consider here...some people have many toons, but are only willing to grind out fate points on a couple of them (or, in cases like mine, only willing to max them on one character...the grind is too boring to do it for multiple characters to me, for example). Not everyone will have all twists, though if they do have them...Sense Weakness does look pretty darn good.

Apart from that, I couldn't imagine not having haste boost on any character that CAN have it (even Youngwrunt, my FvS, is going to LD in part to get haste boost).