Rogue DPS post U14

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Planning to roll another rogue, but i'm wondering about their dps now after ED. Just started exploring epic destinies and there is much stuff to test until i get a clear picture. Before u14 rogue assassins, well built used to be top dps. I have seen some good new stuff added for a rogue, but other melee classes got a lot of boost too.

Now lately ppl don't talk about rogues as dps at all any more. I have even seen monks discussed as dps classes... Rly, a monk?

I know it's hard to make any benchmarks and ofc it all depends on the build, but considering it's build for dps how does rogue stand curently against the other classes?

[Tid12]

Rogues are still one of the best dps classes.

With Shadowdancer, their usefulness is even better thanks to the Tier5 Autogrants that let you SA mobs otherwise immune.

Also, SD grants 6d6, 21 avg damage to each hand, a really big dps increase.
Most rogues uses finesse weapons, 3% profane doublestrike that you can't get anywhere else.
On top of that, another 3d6 from Improved Sneak attack that most rogues SHOULD have, 10.5 avg damage per hand.
All the melees will twist Sense weakness, 1d8 + 1d12 + 1d20. All of these togheter and your rogue just gained 42 avg damage per swing (+10.5 avg if the mob has <25% health). All of these with Haste boost and Haste.
Add Tunnel Vision Twisted, 6.5 avg damage = 48.5 avg damage.

The Epic moment is really lame thou, 2d6 damage. It's not worth getting it.

Most will argue about Rogue's DPS against bosses. Well, it's not MUCH of a problem anymore.

Precision: 25% Fort bypass
Opportunist: 10%
Grim Precision: 15%

That's already 55% fort bypass. At the moment, on elite, bosses have 80% max fortification. Add to that Improved Deception, Dark Elusion (T5 Autogrant) and Improved Destruction and you will SA even bosses almost full time.


Not only their dps is better but their survavibility is.

My rogue (finesse build), not building for it, has a 15% dodge chance. Add to that Shadowform, another 25% dodge chance. Blurry, ghostly, smoke screen and scrolled/clickies displacement and a lot of damage is avoided.

Also, most rogues forget about Improved Uncanny Dodge. That's 50% dodge for 30 seconds every 2 minutes.


At the moment Shadowdancer is still a bit broken thou (SHOULD be better with U16 but some tests confirm that it's still broken). If you want to have fun with big numbers, Fury of the Wild is really fun. With Adrenaline (+400% damage with main hand) you can hit the 1000 dmg mark if the mob is helpess (+400 from SA, Sense weakness and all other weapons mod).

In the end, as said at the beginning of the reply, they are still one of the best DPS class all around. And they can do traps, scrolls etc etc.

[Zerkul]

I'm almost completely sure that right now Barbarians THF are > in pure DPS (no fort, no DR) than all other classes ingame except for Sorcerer Burst DPS which should be higher.

Before U14 Rogues were the best pure DPS: right now the rogue role in party has slightly changed. Rogues Shadow dancers have now a lot of istant kill power to handle trash mobs with and a very good fortification bypass that (if enough high) can make them the best boss DPS along with Barbarians.

[.Revenga.]

Rogues are still the top single target dps class. With the shadowdancer abilities (+SA dice, fort bypass etc), deception/bluff, precision being better then PA, and the removal of SA immunity this dps is 95% guaranteed.

However there has been a shift for rogues, as they used to be the ultimate trash killers with assasinate and their high dps, that's not true anymore.
The legendary dreadnaught with their cleave attacks and the grandmaster epic moment make alot of melee builds better at trash clearing. Combined with AOE nuking powers the single target dps of a rogue doenst matter anymore because the AOE will take out the mobs anyway. All he does is clear 2 or 3 mobs a few seconds before the whole wave goes down.

But for boss fights i notice pulling aggro even more and faster then before, even with the extra -20% threat from the shadowdancer ED. With every hit ranging between 200-300 damage rogues still are the dps kings (as far as i know ofc :-p)

[karl_k0ch]

My observations are similar to those of .Revenga. Rogues deal a great amount of damage, and thanks to the shadowdancer bonuses, SA damage is applied more reliable than ever.

However, FotW and LD both offer a sizable amount of damage increase for melees, and in particular for THF-based toons, which makes Barbarians better killing machines than before. Assassinate is still handy, but with a good group, it happens I don't have the time to assassinate the trash mobs, even in EH CitW, because they are beaten down in less than 2 seconds.

One issue connected to destinies is the HP inflation. The destinies linked to Fighter and Barbarian offer HP bonuses, where Shadowdancer does not. This means that the gap between Rogue HP and Fighter/Barb HP grows greater than before. This can be a problem for healing groups where a lot of damage is dealt to all toons (eg EE PoN). Because a soulstone deals no damage this made me switch from SD to FotW on my Rogue situationally.

Assassinate is still a great ability and offers some versatility for EH quests. (Did not test EE thoroughly.) Before U14, I had a decent Assassinate score (41, iirc) and nowadays it should be at around 48. The feeling is still the same: It's useful to assassiante selected mobs, in particular casters, but it's not a one-click-solve-all solution (it never was for me, though).

[AegonTargaryen]

But for boss fights i notice pulling aggro even more and faster then before, even with the extra -20% threat from the shadowdancer ED. With every hit ranging between 200-300 damage rogues still are the dps kings (as far as i know ofc :-p)

And I forgot to have power attack on.

[.Revenga.]

The HP issue that karl brought up is indeed relevant, i max'ed the FotW tree aswell for the same reasons, but i did not yet use it. The main reason is that while hp stays low on a shadowdancer, he gets very substantial defensive bonuses. The only issue is to have a shadowcharge up before every important fight.

Assasinate in EE is still useful on low fort mobs, which are your primary targets anyway as they're the ones that attack from range and won't be blown away by AOE.

Seems like a barb can come close to a rogue, think the remaining advantage here is just haste boost and a very high fort bypass (i sit at 60-64% iirc).

One thing i'd like to note too is that the SD epic moment is not worth putting points in. Got to keep that in mind when comparing to the insanely awesome FotW and LD moments.

[Rogann]

My opinion differed on this after u14. Barbs are the best imo.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Omg is that a twf barb AegonTargaryen?

Highest sneak attack i can think off
59,5 - 17d6
10,5 - 3d6 imp. sa
21 - 6d6 shadowdancer
12 - sa training
8 - halfling
8 - backstabbing
8 - ex. backstabbing
6 - woodsman (stacks?)
----------
=133

Can't see how a rogue can compete with barbarians even on 100% fort targets even if i assume rogues can bypass all that forty and barbs cant bypass any of it. Realistically, while rogues might be able to bypass 100% forty, barbs can bypass some of it too. and that is where roguess loose any chance to compete against barb dps...

This kinda makes me sad... so going full ****** dps will give me rogue that can hardly match barb dps output, trading half of my hp for evasion and umd? Not rly a valid tradeoff from my point of view... I will also get a toon that needs to do constant agro management (results in another slight dps loss) and is quite helpless against 10-20% of the mobs ingame.

Or i can try going for ee assassinate dc. Witch means a WHOLE LOT of tradeoffs making you essentially an incompetant wizard with some dps...

Idk, i was going to make that rogue but after seeing this screenshot, i'm not so sure rogues are a way to go at this point in the game. Seems they suffered a huge nerf and are not any more worth the tradeoffs they induce.

[Moltier]

Omg is that a twf barb AegonTargaryen?

Can't see how a rogue can compete with barbarians even on 100% fort targets even if i assume rogues can bypass all that forty and barbs cant bypass any of it. Realistically, while rogues might be able to bypass 100% forty, barbs can bypass some of it too. and that is where roguess loose any chance to compete against barb dps...

This kinda makes me sad... so going full ****** dps will give me rogue that can hardly match barb dps output, trading half of my hp for evasion and umd? Not rly a valid tradeoff from my point of view... I will also get a toon that needs to do constant agro management (results in another slight dps loss) and is quite helpless against 10-20% of the mobs ingame.

Thats not his normal hit. I think it was under fury, or adrenaline. Your 100+ sneak attack would become 400+ without base damage with such a strike. Also a rog could crit that defender unlike a barb (actually they can, but its rare). So now we are at ~600damage vs 270...

A good rogue will outdps a good barb vs a single high fort target, and thats based on gameplay and on math.

Currently rogues are good dps vs trash, very good instakillers (if assassin), and top melee dps vs bosses.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Thats not his normal hit. I think it was under fury, or adrenaline. Your 100+ sneak attack would become 400+ without base damage with such a strike. Also a rog could crit that defender unlike a barb (actually they can, but its rare). So now we are at ~600damage vs 270...

A good rogue will outdps a good barb vs a single high fort target, and thats based on gameplay and on math.

Currently rogues are good dps vs trash, very good instakillers (if assassin), and top melee dps vs bosses.

Does that 300%/400% dmg boost rly apply to sneak attack dmg? All dmg boost i have seen so far in the game do not...

Forty reduction is not rogue only ability... All rogues get is 10% from oportunist. Other sources any class can get/twist.

[Moltier]

Does that 300%/400% dmg boost rly apply to sneak attack dmg? All dmg boost i have seen so far in the game do not...

Forty reduction is not rogue only ability... All rogues get is 10% from oportunist. Other sources any class can get/twist.

Yes, but a rogue is more likely will take those reductions (shadowdancer). And a barb will use PA instead of precision (25% debuff).

A maxed THF barb can hit for 200+, plus extras. There is no way to do more than that with a TWF dwarf after death, without much buffs, PA and maxed gear.

Edit: And yes, the damage applies to sneak damage too. A guildy rogue did 1k damage with a rapier.

[Kalanikila]

Rogues are amazing dps with a whole lot of utility thrown into the mix. Nevermind that rogues are simply more fun to play ( imho ) than any other class.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Edit: And yes, the damage applies to sneak damage too. A guildy rogue did 1k damage with a rapier.

Nice to know. Thx for the tip. Is that WAI?

Yes, but a rogue is more likely will take those reductions (shadowdancer). And a barb will use PA instead of precision (25% debuff).

True about PA and precission. If you are doing SD, your not getting the dmg boost. Also as a rogue you have no way of landing imp. sunder either...

[karl_k0ch]

Edit: And yes, the damage applies to sneak damage too. A guildy rogue did 1k damage with a rapier.

The sad news is that it only applies to a single main hand attack and not to corresponding off-hand or doublestrike attacks.

[.Revenga.]

Omg is that a twf barb AegonTargaryen?

Highest sneak attack i can think off
59,5 - 17d6
10,5 - 3d6 imp. sa
21 - 6d6 shadowdancer
12 - sa training
8 - halfling
8 - backstabbing
8 - ex. backstabbing
6 - woodsman (stacks?)
----------
=133

.

For highest sneak attack damage, you go human, not halfling.
Also you forgot the rogue past live (both passive and the feat).
Woodsman doesnt stack.
But most importantly, you didnt say anything about the base damage, which is very substantial if you go for it. Esp with the 5% increase from shadowdancer and possbily rebuke debuff on bosses i can see it go up to 90. (I'm not sure how i got to see those numbers, but i guess rebuke was in play, mostly base damage ranges from 40-60 depending on buffs)

[Therigar]

My observations are similar to those of .Revenga. Rogues deal a great amount of damage, and thanks to the shadowdancer bonuses, SA damage is applied more reliable than ever.

However, FotW and LD both offer a sizable amount of damage increase for melees, and in particular for THF-based toons, which makes Barbarians better killing machines than before. Assassinate is still handy, but with a good group, it happens I don't have the time to assassinate the trash mobs, even in EH CitW, because they are beaten down in less than 2 seconds.

One issue connected to destinies is the HP inflation. The destinies linked to Fighter and Barbarian offer HP bonuses, where Shadowdancer does not. This means that the gap between Rogue HP and Fighter/Barb HP grows greater than before. This can be a problem for healing groups where a lot of damage is dealt to all toons (eg EE PoN). Because a soulstone deals no damage this made me switch from SD to FotW on my Rogue situationally.

Assassinate is still a great ability and offers some versatility for EH quests. (Did not test EE thoroughly.) Before U14, I had a decent Assassinate score (41, iirc) and nowadays it should be at around 48. The feeling is still the same: It's useful to assassiante selected mobs, in particular casters, but it's not a one-click-solve-all solution (it never was for me, though).

An excellent post.

My takeaway is that rogue DPS is still top tier when everything aligns right. This was always the case. Pre U14 it depended on fortification and the ability to include SA damage. With it rogues ruled, without it rogues drooled. And, there never was a convenient way to calculate the value of an assassination.

Fortunately, we usually calculated DPS by looking at some end boss like Harry where assassination didn't count. And, what we found was that with SA working rogues were top notch always playing cat-and-mouse with barbarians using eSoS for top honors. So, ultimately, it came down to what caveats were placed on the DPS calculation.

I think what I'm hearing now is that this is still the case. Depending on gear and ED choices, what is done with twists and so on, rogue and barbarian are still racing each other to see which is the better DPS machine.

And, I think it is quite valid outside of the sterile environment of pure maths to look at survivability issues since no character has DPS if it is dead. Do the HP of barbarians make them more survivable or does the dodge/concealment/ghostly of rogues make them more survivable? Does the fortification of bosses make raw damage from the barbarian bigger DPS or does the fort bypass of rogues let their SA damage thru. Does the higher crit rate of rogue weapons and the number of off-hand and double-strike hits make up for the bigger numbers and higher crit multipliers of two-handed weapons?

What it looks like to me is basically the same pre-U14 discussion. It all depends on how you set up the DPS test. And each is going to win in some situations -- leaving players to decide which of those cases most closely matches their playing experience.

I'll conclude with the same thoughts that I've expressed in other DPS discussions. A lot of the time the DPS is excessive. By that I mean, it takes the same number of strikes to kill the mob in question regardless and, on the last blow, most of the damage is wasted.

So, with builds that are literally within a point or two of one another on average, the choice of which to play should really come down to what you like to do the most.

And, for group leaders, they really shouldn't discriminate too much when choosing which to allow in group. Instead, they ought to discriminate based on the player. A good player's rogue will out DPS a bad player's barbarian any day. Same if we reversed it and gave the good player the barbarian and the bad player the rogue -- the good player's character will be the DPS leader.

This is where server reputation comes into play. Build bad characters, earn a poor reputation, sit on the outside or Pug with bad groups. Build quality characters, earn a good reputation, get into groups and succeed on the highest levels of the game.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

For highest sneak attack damage, you go human, not halfling.
Also you forgot the rogue past live (both passive and the feat).
Woodsman doesnt stack.
But most importantly, you didnt say anything about the base damage, which is very substantial if you go for it. Esp with the 5% increase from shadowdancer and possbily rebuke debuff on bosses i can see it go up to 90. (I'm not sure how i got to see those numbers, but i guess rebuke was in play, mostly base damage ranges from 40-60 depending on buffs)

Human? Why?

Don't have past life rogue on that toon, that's why i didn't count.

I didn't discuss base dmg as i don't see it going much over 50% of sneak attack dmg. Sure i guess you could do 90, but somehow i doubt anyone on this forum would roll one (except rogann ). We all know it means a lot of sacrifice in other areas. More so after u14, as 21 dex is needed for inp. sneak attack.

[.Revenga.]

Human? Why?

Don't have past life rogue on that toon, that's why i didn't count.

I didn't discuss base dmg as i don't see it going much over 50% of sneak attack dmg. Sure i guess you could do 90, but somehow i doubt anyone on this forum would roll one (except rogann ). We all know it means a lot of sacrifice in other areas. More so after u14, as 21 dex is needed for inp. sneak attack.

Damage boost

[Wipey]

Damage boost

And heal amp, extra skill point, feat, versatility 4, adaptability.
Is there better race for a rogue ?