How important is the toughness feat on your caster for you?

[Sarzor]

Yes and no. It's only 3 hp at level 1 but that's roughly a 10% increase. Where at level 20 it's 42, but you should be at around 600hp by then on a wiz, so it's a 7% increase.

Not necessarily. On a first life, yeah it is. But on a TRed life, at level 1 I'm normally around 70 HP (large guild slot, false life, etc) so that 3 HP is pretty minor. That being said, I still almost always take it at first level.

If not playing as a human, it is also harder to justify it at level 1.

[Shadow7375]

Trust me, I learned it the hard way too.

I remember my first toon very well. A rogue with no toughness. I think he made it to like level 7 or 8 then folks started kicking me from groups etc. .. fun times .. didn't like it to much back then but learned a lesson :-) .. Ever since I took toughness on all my toons. Mostly at level 1, latest at 3. Served me very well up to now and I can only recommend it.

My post however was just to say that I was surprised how well I did so far on that particular caster life I am on without toughness. I guess part reason is that the mob isn't hitting that hard at lower to mid levels but this I know will change of course at higher levels.

I probably end up taking toughness anyways at some stage on his journey to 20 though as I always do.

[ristretto93]

I take it as first feat on every toon, every build, every time.

I do the same thing. Well, I guess if vet status plays into it, I make sure that if toughness isn't the first feat I take, it is definitely among the level 4 character's list of feats by the time that character leaves the airship.

As far as casters specifically? I think there are some incredible players out there, and so I guess I have to say that the necessity of this feat really depends on the way the character is played. I think it has been drilled into all of us as ultra-important to have it, so when we see another character without it we assume that the player doesn't know any better or is just bad. Again, I have seen some great players pull off some impressively twitchy, and intense maneuvering. With tuned senses and agility at the keyboard/mouse I know some caster players could just as easily go without the extra hp.

I am not one of those players yet I am too used to playing melee characters, which I did for the first 2-3 years I played DDO. When I'm playing my wizard, I'm gonna get hit...a lot. I have decent reflexes, but not the experience in the role of a caster to consistently react appropriately, or to move instinctively.

While I'm still learning, I will keep piling on HP however I can!

[Ape_Man]

I need it for Lich form, otherwise I'd drop it.

[Inouk]

Personally I don't bother with it til around level 10 on most toons, later on some if they have good HP (my PM swapped mental toughnes for toughness at 18). I would't normally skip it, but as a TR WF AM you might have decent enough HP to give it away. I know it's more and more common for ftr/barb types to skip it since with EDs they can usually hit around 1000 anyway and the extra combat feat is more valuable than another 40-60hp.

As a caster I wouldn't settle for less than 400 HP at level 20 (would prefer 450). It sounds like you're planning to TR again almost right away so it probably doesn't matter much if you can reach that 400 mark.

[arminius]

Yes and no. It's only 3 hp at level 1 but that's roughly a 10% increase. Where at level 20 it's 42, but you should be at around 600hp by then on a wiz, so it's a 7% increase.

How do you get 600 hp on a caster level 20 at all, much less assume everyone does it?

I have multiple multi-life archmage wizards and sorcs, warforged and human, maxed con, greensteel hp item, etc. And you're doing good to hit 450-500 at level 20. The other side of 500 is most likely seen with full buffs only. Sure you can hit 600 if you start with the Sentinel ED and turn on the stance for 100 hp but I can't imagine that's what you meant...

Is there some "by the way here's an extra 150 hp item that easily slots into a caster" item I don't know about?

[squishwizzy]

Was wondering how others look at this.

On all my toons I have always taken the toughness feat and the enhancements that came along with it. I am a big fan of a solid amount of HP.

This time, on Foochy' 4th caster life I decided to try without as I have my eyes on some other feats that I want for this build.

He's at level 8 now and has 169 hp with ship buffs. Could get a bit more if I would swap out my +3 CON item for a higher, crafted one. So far no problem .. Managed to get through all content up to now alright, but somehow I feel "naked". It just feels weird :-)

Do others feel similar when they decide, for whatever reason, not to take toughness on a particular build? Just curious.

A 28-point, first-life pure wizzy or sorc: toughness is a must.

At 32 points for a first-life pure wizzy or sorc, toughness is pretty important.

After that, Toughness is nice, but not critical. You have extra points to pump into CON. In any event, having more HP than you really need doesn't altogether suck. It only becomes an issue when you're needing to take toughness enhancements when you could be putting those points into something else.

If you feel nekked, get a Minos Legens. It has the added benefit of making ugly toons less ugly, and chicks dig the horns on the helm...

[Feralthyrtiaq]

A couple folks wrote something to the effect of the Toughness feat only being 4 extra hp @ level 1 and 22 extra hp @ 20 but I did not see anyone mention the fact that the Toughness or Barbarian PL Feat is a REQUIREMENT to unlock Racial and Class Toughness Enhancements which adds up to 80 (maybe more)!!! Extra Hps depending on race and class.

Some race/class combos are gonna get 102 Extra HP by taking the Toughness feat and spending AP on Racial/Class Toughness Enhancements.

Unlocking the Toughness Enhancement lines is by far much more of a benefit from taking the Toughness Feat for just 22 extra hp.

[Ape_Man]

How do you get 600 hp on a caster level 20 at all, much less assume everyone does it?

I have multiple multi-life archmage wizards and sorcs, warforged and human, maxed con, greensteel hp item, etc. And you're doing good to hit 450-500 at level 20. The other side of 500 is most likely seen with full buffs only. Sure you can hit 600 if you start with the Sentinel ED and turn on the stance for 100 hp but I can't imagine that's what you meant...

Is there some "by the way here's an extra 150 hp item that easily slots into a caster" item I don't know about?

18 INT

18 CON

You don't need any other stats on a wizard.

GFL, Minos, Shroud HP item, Lich form . . . easily over 600 at level 20 and 700 at level 25.

You also can and should consume CON yugo pots as the side effects don't affect you.

[bigolbear]

unfortunately i had to take it - its needed for lich form.

If it wasnt needed for lich form I would have taken a more useful feat. (for a caster)

For the record im not shy on hp. I can break 600 hp on my wizard fully buffed up (lvl 25). i have taken toughness one time and have only spent 1 ap to get the first enhancement.

Of course Id advocate the toughness feat for most mele, especialy ones that are shy on hp and big on feats. But for a wizard or sorc my personal opinion is that it is skippable, especialy if you chose a high hp race like warforge or dwarf.

The general advice to noobies - of any class:
1. con is not a dump stat
2. take toughness.
3. get hp gear and hvy fort.
4. get defence, AC, saves, DR, misschance, CC.

This is all good advice for noobies, for vets and those willing to experiment a bit you can slack one of these things if you make up for it with the others. Defence is a package deal, hp alone doesnt do the job.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I now take Toughness on just about every character.

However, it wasn't until the cap went above 16 that I felt like I needed it. (I also use to go with only a 10 Con until then too)

I still tend to have a lo tless HP than most players seem to think you need.

So I guess what I am saying is that you can certainly get by without it if you wish to.
at least for much of the game....

Casters especially have ways to minimise the incoming damage they take.


But.... like I said, I now take it on every character. Unless I just cannot fit it in for some reason.

[arminius]

18 INT

18 CON

You don't need any other stats on a wizard.

GFL, Minos, Shroud HP item, Lich form . . . easily over 600 at level 20 and 700 at level 25.

You also can and should consume CON yugo pots as the side effects don't affect you.

Yeah, as I said, I have max Con, 20 on the WF's, 18 on human, and GFL, and Minos, and Shroud HP item. But archmages and sorcs can't really do Lich form overly well. I don't know anything about PMs. Does Lich form really give you 100+ HP?

And yeah, assuming Yugo (or store, or both) Con pots is not realistic for most people.

[Jaid314]

A couple folks wrote something to the effect of the Toughness feat only being 4 extra hp @ level 1 and 22 extra hp @ 20 but I did not see anyone mention the fact that the Toughness or Barbarian PL Feat is a REQUIREMENT to unlock Racial and Class Toughness Enhancements which adds up to 80 (maybe more)!!! Extra Hps depending on race and class.

Some race/class combos are gonna get 102 Extra HP by taking the Toughness feat and spending AP on Racial/Class Toughness Enhancements.

Unlocking the Toughness Enhancement lines is by far much more of a benefit from taking the Toughness Feat for just 22 extra hp.

anyone burning the APs for 102 HP out of toughness is losing out an awful lot there. the first two tiers of class or racial toughness (ie either 42 or 62 total, depending on if you get class ones) are generally worth it. anything beyond that: not so much. 1 AP for 10 HP is a good deal, 2 AP for 10 HP is sort of decent but a bit overpriced, and 3 AP for 10 HP is a terrible deal. i have a hard time imagining a build that doesn't have a better use for AP than getting 20 HP for 7, or 40 HP for 14.

that said, most of the time i agree. toughness is generally a good idea. it is almost always going to be at least a worthwhile option to consider, even for those with experience. that said, sometimes there are better things to spend your feat slots on, especially on feat-starved builds. even on a wizard, you might be a bit tight depending.

empower and maximise are almost required. for most wizards, spell pen and greater spell pen is a no-brainer. likewise, heighten is pretty near a must-have. insightful reflexes adds more to survivability than toughness, as a general rule. quicken is almost a requirement. we're up to 7 just from those. now consider on an archmage warforged build, you need mental toughness, and you likely want 3 or 4 spell focus feats (2 for your primary focus school, 1-2 for your secondary). it's easy to justify wanting at least 1 other school as well; the most commonly used schools for a wizard these days are going to be necromancy, conjuration, and enchantment. having all 3 of those at respectable levels is actually a very desirable thing (and yes, having a +2 to your spell DCs does make a huge difference).

if they could fit it in, i suspect many wizards would even like to have a fourth school of specialisation: evocation (no, it isn't as good as spell focus necromancy... but for an archmage it opens up 1 SP magic missile SLA, and improves the chances of certain nukes to land, and even certain CC options like greater shout).

yes, wizards get bonus feats; no, they don't have so many feats they don't know what to do with them all. toughness is usually chosen because it is a better benefit than other good options, not because it is the only good option.

[Ape_Man]

And yeah, assuming Yugo con pots is not realistic for most people.

Why? please don't tell me getting Amrath favor on LEVEL 20-25 TOONS is difficult.

[moops]

For TRs and Vet Casters and Divines, not needed unless PM, if you know the game.

If you solo a lot of difficult content perhaps...but with the way end game is now, 20-45ish ( more in some races) hp isn't all that much --end game. I don't even know that it matters while leveling, even soloing. But I see many glass canon casters ruling endgame.

I always say, that people should play an alt without Toughness, a glass canon, so they can get used to mitgating damage, so when they do walk into EE content ( or for a long time elite raids before game changed) with decent con and gear, they think about what they are doing, and survive. One of the biggest things in failed TODs back in the day, even on normal, was that when something went wrong, many people did not know how to survive. meh but the game really doesnt have much like that anymore.

[Enoach]

For the Caster Classes that do not have Toughness Enhancements and have to base it solely off Racial Enhancements, Toughness worth is @20 is only 42 to 62 HP (all races have 2, but some have more).

So the question one must ask is, is there an other Feat and Action Points that would give me more bang for the buck based on my play style?

Toughness feat can add quite a bit of HP to a class and should be considered carefully. But is it required for all caster builds? No.

My wizard has it for Lich, My Cleric and FvS have it because they can tap into more than 2 racial enhancements, and I see HP as a buffer to help benefit the party. My Paladin has it, because Each HP is worth more with DoS stances and I'm trying to get hit so it just makes sense. My Artificer does not have Toughness, but does have the Barbarian PL feat, 2 fewer HP @20, but I got all of them when I took the feat at level 3.

Now I've been debating a TR of my wizard back to a Sorcerer (currently 1 sorc and on 3rd Wizard life), if I do, toughness is not on my "must have" list. But that is because I have HP in other sources. Doesn't mean I won't grab it, just means I don't see -42 HP as a deterrent to my play style.

I like to take toughness early enough to get access to the enhancements sooner. I don't always take it at level 1, but it is usually taken by level 6.