How important is the toughness feat on your caster for you?

[Shadow7375]

Was wondering how others look at this.

On all my toons I have always taken the toughness feat and the enhancements that came along with it. I am a big fan of a solid amount of HP.

This time, on Foochy' 4th caster life I decided to try without as I have my eyes on some other feats that I want for this build.

He's at level 8 now and has 169 hp with ship buffs. Could get a bit more if I would swap out my +3 CON item for a higher, crafted one. So far no problem .. Managed to get through all content up to now alright, but somehow I feel "naked". It just feels weird :-)

Do others feel similar when they decide, for whatever reason, not to take toughness on a particular build? Just curious.

[moo_cow]

It depends on the class/race and what enhancements you need first, it does give a solid amount of hp in epic elites which can be life saving but there can also be more important feats

so ... 27 base for the feat +20 (what I normally take, more is usually a waste of enhancements, again depends on your enhancements)

So is it worth it to you? As a caster you should be maxing 1-2 elements and their crit lines, getting spell pen, etc. So it depends on how much you have left over, you may feel weird cause I know I do not having it :P , but you can get 27 +30 +30 on some classes if you have the ap, if not classes you can take toughness enhancements in 2 lines is awesome so its easy to spend 27 + 20 +20 for 67 hps which can save you a lot. On my old sorc level 25 tho it did seem like a waste of a feat because i maxed my lines and I only spent 1 ap for 10 hp resulting in 37 hp. If you are enhancement starved don't take it, but you can always switch back into the feat if you feel like you need more hp.

[bvermeul]

Vital. It means access to Lich form at level 18.

If you're not going Pale Master, then it's still vital. It's 22 hp for the feat itself, and another 20 for the two Racial Toughness enhancements.

42 hp is nothing to sniff at, and you have enough feats to spend to be able to take it.

[Jaid314]

Vital. It means access to Lich form at level 18.

If you're not going Pale Master, then it's still vital. It's 22 hp for the feat itself, and another 20 for the two Racial Toughness enhancements.

42 hp is nothing to sniff at, and you have enough feats to spend to be able to take it.

i dunno, i would say it somewhat depends.

for example, if you would be okay on a first life sorcerer with, say, 400 HP by level 20...

then why wouldn't you be equally ok on your second life sorcerer with 400 HP by level 20.

it's not about how many toughness feats you have... it's about your HP. once you have enough HP, well... more HP is never a completely bad thing, but there are definitely times where more HP is not really worth as much as something else you could grab with the same resources.

so i would say, if you have the gear in place that you'll have sufficient HP, toughness becomes a lot less necessary. still a good choice, mind you; i would think long and hard about what you're going to grab instead (and as was pointed out, if it's opening up lich form to you, definitely grab it). don't feel like you need the toughness feat; you need the hit points, and if you already have them, well, a bigger margin for error is nice, but another feat might reduce the likelihood of errors happening, so there's that to consider as well.

edit: i do realise the question at hand was for wizards, not sorcerers. it's not the specific class that matters, it's the principle; once you have enough HP, more is nice but not required, and any effort to gain more HP should be balanced against what else you could potentially gain with the same resources.

[thegreatneil]

What class?

Caster doesnt help, and i dont know you.


But mostly, if your playing a class that has race and class enhancements, thats alot of hp to miss out on.
On the other hand, if you have the PL and gear to cover it, i dont think it would be a big deal.

Oh and if your a PM wiz you need it for lich and vampire form.

[gphysalis]

As the above posters have said, you don't want to skip lich form.

If you happen to be a warforged AM with a 20 starting con, then you could probably skip it, but I'd still recommend it anyways.

[MRMechMan]

Reasons high HP is useful when TRing:
-Disintigrates
-Elite chain lightnings, cyclonic blasts, etc(although wiz should take insightful for 1/2 all reflex damage)
-Cometfalls/Stuns/knockdowns when you can't self heal-that extra hp is a cusion before you die to heal yourself
-you WILL die less with more hp, 1s vs soundburst/stunning blow/bezikira DO happen and 40-50odd hp WILL save you sometimes.
-elite trap damage, often that 40-50 odd hp is the difference between -20 and +20 hp on the far side.

Reasons it is not so useful when TRing:
-Burst damage is pretty low most of the time
-Most damage is avoidable
-Wiz will have the reflex save to avoid most spell damage
-At lower levels stuff dies so fast it can barely hit ya

Take toughness. Not just for lich form, but because 40-50hp is a great investment for 1 feat and 3-6AP, and wizards get plenty of feats. I can see the argument for not taking it on paladin or barb, etc feat starved and already pretty fat...but on a caster when TRing it is a pretty good deal. On a wizard I don't see what else you would take, it is probably +1-2 DC to an off school vs toughness and I'd take the hp any day.

[samthedagger]

I would never build a wizard without it, because wizards just have lots of feats. It is easy to fit in everything you want and still take Toughness. Sorcerers are a different story. I often skip it on a sorcerer, especially if it is a warforged sorcerer--and is there any other kind --because you can be hard-pressed for feats. But it can make the difference between an easy go of things and having to pay a little more attention to your HP bar.

[Shadow7375]

Am a WF AM with a 20 starting CON. This is a tr toon and he will not stay at 20 long.

As I mentioned in my OP, I am a big fan of HP and my toons (incl. casters, rogues, etc.) always have plenty.

Thing for me was / is that I am somewhat positively surprised how well I managed so far without toughness and that got me thinking of how important it is after all.

I guess game knowledge and skill might get you through a lot of content with lesser HP than you / I usually have. I reckon a year ago not having toughness would have caused me a lot of trouble.

So are there a lot of folks out there not taking toughness as a feat? Maybe a lot of new players might not cause they don't understand the importance of it yet, but how about the veterans out here?

As a wizard, I got plenty of feats and can slot it in if needs be .. but I guess for the time being I'll go without to see how much trouble I gonna get into.

[MRMechMan]

I guess game knowledge and skill might get you through a lot of content with lesser HP than you / I usually have. I reckon a year ago not having toughness would have caused me a lot of trouble.

When I first started, I ignored hp and suffered for it.
When I learned more about the game, I focused more on hp and survived more.
After a few TRs I got lazy again and didn't focus on hp much, as I didn't die regardless.

Player skill and quest knowledge are the 2 most important things...but toughness is probably a good thing to take regardless of either.

[sirgog]

Pale Master as already stated, it's a Lich prereq.

AM - I'd take it. 1s happen.

In both cases, it is a weaker defensive feat than Insightful Reflexes, which unlike Toughness is an actual must-have.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I always take toughness at level 1, except for once. It was a monk life and I was going to spend the bonus feat at level 2 on toughness. Man, that was an uncomfortable 15 min.

[sirgog]

I always take toughness at level 1, except for once. It was a monk life and I was going to spend the bonus feat at level 2 on toughness. Man, that was an uncomfortable 15 min.

I never really take it that early. It does so little prior to level 7 or so on a Wizard (where you get the second enhancement).

[Lonnbeimnech]

I never really take it that early. It does so little prior to level 7 or so on a Wizard (where you get the second enhancement).

Yes and no. It's only 3 hp at level 1 but that's roughly a 10% increase. Where at level 20 it's 42, but you should be at around 600hp by then on a wiz, so it's a 7% increase.

[Sarzor]

Yes and no. It's only 3 hp at level 1 but that's roughly a 10% increase. Where at level 20 it's 42, but you should be at around 600hp by then on a wiz, so it's a 7% increase.

Not necessarily. On a first life, yeah it is. But on a TRed life, at level 1 I'm normally around 70 HP (large guild slot, false life, etc) so that 3 HP is pretty minor. That being said, I still almost always take it at first level.

If not playing as a human, it is also harder to justify it at level 1.

[Ape_Man]

I need it for Lich form, otherwise I'd drop it.

[moops]

For TRs and Vet Casters and Divines, not needed unless PM, if you know the game.

If you solo a lot of difficult content perhaps...but with the way end game is now, 20-45ish ( more in some races) hp isn't all that much --end game. I don't even know that it matters while leveling, even soloing. But I see many glass canon casters ruling endgame.

I always say, that people should play an alt without Toughness, a glass canon, so they can get used to mitgating damage, so when they do walk into EE content ( or for a long time elite raids before game changed) with decent con and gear, they think about what they are doing, and survive. One of the biggest things in failed TODs back in the day, even on normal, was that when something went wrong, many people did not know how to survive. meh but the game really doesnt have much like that anymore.

[Enoach]

For the Caster Classes that do not have Toughness Enhancements and have to base it solely off Racial Enhancements, Toughness worth is @20 is only 42 to 62 HP (all races have 2, but some have more).

So the question one must ask is, is there an other Feat and Action Points that would give me more bang for the buck based on my play style?

Toughness feat can add quite a bit of HP to a class and should be considered carefully. But is it required for all caster builds? No.

My wizard has it for Lich, My Cleric and FvS have it because they can tap into more than 2 racial enhancements, and I see HP as a buffer to help benefit the party. My Paladin has it, because Each HP is worth more with DoS stances and I'm trying to get hit so it just makes sense. My Artificer does not have Toughness, but does have the Barbarian PL feat, 2 fewer HP @20, but I got all of them when I took the feat at level 3.

Now I've been debating a TR of my wizard back to a Sorcerer (currently 1 sorc and on 3rd Wizard life), if I do, toughness is not on my "must have" list. But that is because I have HP in other sources. Doesn't mean I won't grab it, just means I don't see -42 HP as a deterrent to my play style.

I like to take toughness early enough to get access to the enhancements sooner. I don't always take it at level 1, but it is usually taken by level 6.

[arminius]

Yes and no. It's only 3 hp at level 1 but that's roughly a 10% increase. Where at level 20 it's 42, but you should be at around 600hp by then on a wiz, so it's a 7% increase.

How do you get 600 hp on a caster level 20 at all, much less assume everyone does it?

I have multiple multi-life archmage wizards and sorcs, warforged and human, maxed con, greensteel hp item, etc. And you're doing good to hit 450-500 at level 20. The other side of 500 is most likely seen with full buffs only. Sure you can hit 600 if you start with the Sentinel ED and turn on the stance for 100 hp but I can't imagine that's what you meant...

Is there some "by the way here's an extra 150 hp item that easily slots into a caster" item I don't know about?

[Ape_Man]

How do you get 600 hp on a caster level 20 at all, much less assume everyone does it?

I have multiple multi-life archmage wizards and sorcs, warforged and human, maxed con, greensteel hp item, etc. And you're doing good to hit 450-500 at level 20. The other side of 500 is most likely seen with full buffs only. Sure you can hit 600 if you start with the Sentinel ED and turn on the stance for 100 hp but I can't imagine that's what you meant...

Is there some "by the way here's an extra 150 hp item that easily slots into a caster" item I don't know about?

18 INT

18 CON

You don't need any other stats on a wizard.

GFL, Minos, Shroud HP item, Lich form . . . easily over 600 at level 20 and 700 at level 25.

You also can and should consume CON yugo pots as the side effects don't affect you.