How important is the toughness feat on your caster for you?

[Shadow7375]

Was wondering how others look at this.

On all my toons I have always taken the toughness feat and the enhancements that came along with it. I am a big fan of a solid amount of HP.

This time, on Foochy' 4th caster life I decided to try without as I have my eyes on some other feats that I want for this build.

He's at level 8 now and has 169 hp with ship buffs. Could get a bit more if I would swap out my +3 CON item for a higher, crafted one. So far no problem .. Managed to get through all content up to now alright, but somehow I feel "naked". It just feels weird :-)

Do others feel similar when they decide, for whatever reason, not to take toughness on a particular build? Just curious.

[moo_cow]

It depends on the class/race and what enhancements you need first, it does give a solid amount of hp in epic elites which can be life saving but there can also be more important feats

so ... 27 base for the feat +20 (what I normally take, more is usually a waste of enhancements, again depends on your enhancements)

So is it worth it to you? As a caster you should be maxing 1-2 elements and their crit lines, getting spell pen, etc. So it depends on how much you have left over, you may feel weird cause I know I do not having it :P , but you can get 27 +30 +30 on some classes if you have the ap, if not classes you can take toughness enhancements in 2 lines is awesome so its easy to spend 27 + 20 +20 for 67 hps which can save you a lot. On my old sorc level 25 tho it did seem like a waste of a feat because i maxed my lines and I only spent 1 ap for 10 hp resulting in 37 hp. If you are enhancement starved don't take it, but you can always switch back into the feat if you feel like you need more hp.

[bvermeul]

Vital. It means access to Lich form at level 18.

If you're not going Pale Master, then it's still vital. It's 22 hp for the feat itself, and another 20 for the two Racial Toughness enhancements.

42 hp is nothing to sniff at, and you have enough feats to spend to be able to take it.

[thegreatneil]

What class?

Caster doesnt help, and i dont know you.


But mostly, if your playing a class that has race and class enhancements, thats alot of hp to miss out on.
On the other hand, if you have the PL and gear to cover it, i dont think it would be a big deal.

Oh and if your a PM wiz you need it for lich and vampire form.

[Jaid314]

Vital. It means access to Lich form at level 18.

If you're not going Pale Master, then it's still vital. It's 22 hp for the feat itself, and another 20 for the two Racial Toughness enhancements.

42 hp is nothing to sniff at, and you have enough feats to spend to be able to take it.

i dunno, i would say it somewhat depends.

for example, if you would be okay on a first life sorcerer with, say, 400 HP by level 20...

then why wouldn't you be equally ok on your second life sorcerer with 400 HP by level 20.

it's not about how many toughness feats you have... it's about your HP. once you have enough HP, well... more HP is never a completely bad thing, but there are definitely times where more HP is not really worth as much as something else you could grab with the same resources.

so i would say, if you have the gear in place that you'll have sufficient HP, toughness becomes a lot less necessary. still a good choice, mind you; i would think long and hard about what you're going to grab instead (and as was pointed out, if it's opening up lich form to you, definitely grab it). don't feel like you need the toughness feat; you need the hit points, and if you already have them, well, a bigger margin for error is nice, but another feat might reduce the likelihood of errors happening, so there's that to consider as well.

edit: i do realise the question at hand was for wizards, not sorcerers. it's not the specific class that matters, it's the principle; once you have enough HP, more is nice but not required, and any effort to gain more HP should be balanced against what else you could potentially gain with the same resources.

[gphysalis]

As the above posters have said, you don't want to skip lich form.

If you happen to be a warforged AM with a 20 starting con, then you could probably skip it, but I'd still recommend it anyways.

[MRMechMan]

Reasons high HP is useful when TRing:
-Disintigrates
-Elite chain lightnings, cyclonic blasts, etc(although wiz should take insightful for 1/2 all reflex damage)
-Cometfalls/Stuns/knockdowns when you can't self heal-that extra hp is a cusion before you die to heal yourself
-you WILL die less with more hp, 1s vs soundburst/stunning blow/bezikira DO happen and 40-50odd hp WILL save you sometimes.
-elite trap damage, often that 40-50 odd hp is the difference between -20 and +20 hp on the far side.

Reasons it is not so useful when TRing:
-Burst damage is pretty low most of the time
-Most damage is avoidable
-Wiz will have the reflex save to avoid most spell damage
-At lower levels stuff dies so fast it can barely hit ya

Take toughness. Not just for lich form, but because 40-50hp is a great investment for 1 feat and 3-6AP, and wizards get plenty of feats. I can see the argument for not taking it on paladin or barb, etc feat starved and already pretty fat...but on a caster when TRing it is a pretty good deal. On a wizard I don't see what else you would take, it is probably +1-2 DC to an off school vs toughness and I'd take the hp any day.

[samthedagger]

I would never build a wizard without it, because wizards just have lots of feats. It is easy to fit in everything you want and still take Toughness. Sorcerers are a different story. I often skip it on a sorcerer, especially if it is a warforged sorcerer--and is there any other kind --because you can be hard-pressed for feats. But it can make the difference between an easy go of things and having to pay a little more attention to your HP bar.

[Shadow7375]

Am a WF AM with a 20 starting CON. This is a tr toon and he will not stay at 20 long.

As I mentioned in my OP, I am a big fan of HP and my toons (incl. casters, rogues, etc.) always have plenty.

Thing for me was / is that I am somewhat positively surprised how well I managed so far without toughness and that got me thinking of how important it is after all.

I guess game knowledge and skill might get you through a lot of content with lesser HP than you / I usually have. I reckon a year ago not having toughness would have caused me a lot of trouble.

So are there a lot of folks out there not taking toughness as a feat? Maybe a lot of new players might not cause they don't understand the importance of it yet, but how about the veterans out here?

As a wizard, I got plenty of feats and can slot it in if needs be .. but I guess for the time being I'll go without to see how much trouble I gonna get into.

[sirgog]

Pale Master as already stated, it's a Lich prereq.

AM - I'd take it. 1s happen.

In both cases, it is a weaker defensive feat than Insightful Reflexes, which unlike Toughness is an actual must-have.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I always take toughness at level 1, except for once. It was a monk life and I was going to spend the bonus feat at level 2 on toughness. Man, that was an uncomfortable 15 min.

[sirgog]

I always take toughness at level 1, except for once. It was a monk life and I was going to spend the bonus feat at level 2 on toughness. Man, that was an uncomfortable 15 min.

I never really take it that early. It does so little prior to level 7 or so on a Wizard (where you get the second enhancement).

[MRMechMan]

I guess game knowledge and skill might get you through a lot of content with lesser HP than you / I usually have. I reckon a year ago not having toughness would have caused me a lot of trouble.

When I first started, I ignored hp and suffered for it.
When I learned more about the game, I focused more on hp and survived more.
After a few TRs I got lazy again and didn't focus on hp much, as I didn't die regardless.

Player skill and quest knowledge are the 2 most important things...but toughness is probably a good thing to take regardless of either.

[Shadow7375]

I always take toughness at level 1, except for once. It was a monk life and I was going to spend the bonus feat at level 2 on toughness. Man, that was an uncomfortable 15 min.

15 min ? What took you so long ? Must have been flower sniffing ... LOL ... just kidding.

I usually take toughness at lvl 1 as well, latest at 3. Just this time I decided differently.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I never really take it that early. It does so little prior to level 7 or so on a Wizard (where you get the second enhancement).

Yes and no. It's only 3 hp at level 1 but that's roughly a 10% increase. Where at level 20 it's 42, but you should be at around 600hp by then on a wiz, so it's a 7% increase.

[Such755]

Very important to me.
Not going to skip it no matter what class and race I am.

[susiedupfer]

I take it as first feat on every toon, every build, every time. I learned to the hard way. You need to not have to learn it the hard way.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Yeah! Every character takes toughness or PL:Barb if available. An especially easy feat choice for level 1,3,6 when you are waiting for BAB to increase enough for better TWF feats etc. but have to spend a Feat.

[katz]

i learned the hard way on my rogue. course, that was when i first started playing and i had no idea how good it was. 3 hp at first level yadda yadda? sounds lame *skip* i had absolutely embarrassing HP on him before i LRed him...

since then the only character i've played without toughness as the first feat was katz's first life. managed to scrape out 300 hp with mediocre gear before i gave up and LRed and added toughness. shot up to 470.

[Sarzor]

I like the toughness feat for one simple reason: I like to go blazing into fights and have a "me vs. the world" mentality. That extra few dozen hp means the difference between being able to take 5 mobs beating on you or 10 mobs.

There's nothing more awesome than going into the middle of a village full of mobs and wiping out every single last one of them, and even if that 45 HP only would be necessary 10% of the time, it is fully worth it to me.