Healbot with some offensive potential please?

[Fefnir_2011]

His original post implies he wants healbot and offensive casting. I'm sure your build is great and has it's merits, but he didn't say he want a battle cleric. Why are you forcing fighter levels on him? Suggesting splashes are fine but perhaps he's not looking to splash. Not everyone wants to splash for various reasons.

Yes, generally by mid levels you'll have a lot of turns thanks to +6 CHA items, etc. The extra turn feat helps quite a bit at low level quests where undead are plentiful.

There is no reason for "full healbot" at all. Not at any point of leveling or endgame, is there a reason to specialize so heavily into healing that you aren't also an effective melee DPS or an effective offensive spellcaster.

That said, a 2 level splash (fighter/monk/wizard) is a good option to have. Even though you lose 2 spell pen on a caster build, if it lets you fit in all your spell pen and spell foci it's a net gain.

My recommendation for feats is:

Toughness
Maximize
Empower
Empower Heal
Heighten
Quicken
Spell Pen
GSP
ESP
SF: Evocation/Necromancy
GSF: Evocation/Necromancy
Shield Mastery/Extend/Extra Turning (if you really want it for some reason. with 16 turns and Endless Turning I've only run out of turns once, and that was right before a shrine in CiTW).

Like I said, just a suggestion. You should play what you like.

[Mubjon]

His original post implies he wants healbot and offensive casting. I'm sure your build is great and has it's merits, but he didn't say he want a battle cleric. Why are you forcing fighter levels on him? Suggesting splashes are fine but perhaps he's not looking to splash. Not everyone wants to splash for various reasons.

Yes, generally by mid levels you'll have a lot of turns thanks to +6 CHA items, etc. The extra turn feat helps quite a bit at low level quests where undead are plentiful.

First you have a misconception here.

I am not forcing anything on anyone, It was presented to show him that he could get some feats on his character that would not gimp it.

Just because you have a fighter level on cleric does not mean that you are a "battle cleric". I consider the build that i presented as a Cleric that can offensive cast and heal. Clerics are setup to take advantage of splashing with such a lack luster Capstone. Maybe if the capstone gave +2 wisdom or increased their casting levels on light based spells it would be worthwhile to stay pure. Why not splash to get a couple more feats? Especially if you can get all the feats that you need and some that make your character better? If he has access to Monk he can get tougness for free and take another feat. A fighter splash gives him for free tower shield prof and the ability to take shield mastery that helps with AC and PRR. Splash a wizard level and now he can get one of those meta magic feats that he needs free giving him essentially 2 more feats for something else (Spell pen, Spell focus,) to help him get the epic versions at 21 and 24.

Now with all that said

My TR cleric has 17 turns right now at mid level, They regenerate every 2 minutes. I am not sure that I could do anything more with 21 turns than I can with 17 in the mid levels. So in my opinion the extra turn feat ceases to be useful to those that build for turns (16 or higher charisma) after around level 10. No point in wasting a feat or wasting your free feat swap at level 10 just for a bit easier time the first 72 hours of your characters life.

Now all this is my opinion and I stated that I would share with him my build so that he might get an idea of what is possible for a raid capable healer that brings a lot more to the table than just watching red bars. In the end it is up to the player how they wish to build their character and as long as it is fun for them that is all that matters.

[guardianx2009]

First you have a misconception here.

I am not forcing anything on anyone, It was presented to show him that he could get some feats on his character that would not gimp it.

Problem with splashes like that is the perception of 'battle cleric' stigma.

If you have tough skin or don't ever join LFM's that's fine. But the perception is there, any one that's ever splashed a cleric is subject to it. It is the most pervasive form of DDO racism out there. If you splash a fighter level, expections are you're one of "them battleclerics". If you splash a fighter level and you don't even engage in melee, you'll probably be seen as 'gimp'... Rightly or wrongly so, it's not pleasant.

I'm not here to argue the merits of your build: I see both pro's and con's to it. For a person new to the class, splashing might not be ideal. Not just that it complicates the build, but also for reasons stated above.

Extra Turning is suggested only because he specifically stated he wants to healbot. Whether you can raid heal effectively with/without it is not the question here. If you want to go the healbot route, the feat holds appeal to you. Just like Mental toughness is appealing to some healbot builds too.. even though it's not really worthwhile (4 turns > ~100 sp).

[Mubjon]

Problem with splashes like that is the perception of 'battle cleric' stigma.

If you have tough skin or don't ever join LFM's that's fine. But the perception is there, any one that's ever splashed a cleric is subject to it. It is the most pervasive form of DDO racism out there. If you splash a fighter level, expections are you're one of "them battleclerics". If you splash a fighter level and you don't even engage in melee, you'll probably be seen as 'gimp'... Rightly or wrongly so, it's not pleasant.

I'm not here to argue the merits of your build: I see both pro's and con's to it. For a person new to the class, splashing might not be ideal. Not just that it complicates the build, but also for reasons stated above.

Extra Turning is suggested only because he specifically stated he wants to healbot. Whether you can raid heal effectively with/without it is not the question here. If you want to go the healbot route, the feat holds appeal to you. Just like Mental toughness is appealing to some healbot builds too.. even though it's not really worthwhile (4 turns > ~100 sp).

At level 20+ as long as you have 17 levels of cleric no one is going to think you are a "battle cleric" save those that believe that a Cleric is there to do nothing more than be a glorified hireling.

I cannot see a benefit to 4 extra turns that take up a feat to be honest. Now if the turns did not refresh every 2 minutes that feat slot used might be more useful.

And I did not think we were arguing at all It could help him decide which way he wants to go more easily.

[Kinerd]

At level 20+ as long as you have 17 levels of cleric no one is going to think you are a "battle cleric" save those that believe that a Cleric is there to do nothing more than be a glorified hireling.

So... about 50% of LFMs?

I used to completely agree with this, and still mostly agree with this...except that you need Spell Focus to qualify for the DC-boosting Destiny abilities that you might want to twist in. A feat for +1 to DC to one school? No thanks. A feat for +3, +4, or even +6 to DC, though? That sounds a lot better! (1 from the feat itself, 3 from Magister twist, 2 from Draconic twist.)

I hadn't considered that. Do you still need the feat to twist? That would be a hassle anyway. Worth considering, for sure.

[Fefnir_2011]

So... about 50% of LFMs?

If a group thinks that you exist for no other reason than to chase them around kissing their boo-boos, they aren't worth joining anyway. Playing a battlecleric only helps with learning that lesson faster.

And before someone accuses me of not being a team player, I have no trouble healing a tank in any raid, or keeping up a Frenzied Barbarian who has higher HP than me and is killing more than me. But if you can't out DPS me and/or I am better suited in general for what you're doing, maybe you should be healing me.

[jamvaru]

what you want is the average cleric; not too much casting power, turning, or combat
you don't want to be PURE nannybot, or offensive caster, spellcaster only

the answer is to not max out any one stat; whatever race you choose, likely human, make the stats average; basically all 12's, except for +wis, +str, and possibly others, so you reduce int and dex, maybe to minimums, but not necessarily, depends on build points, of course; with basic 28 build i believe you get something like this

str 14
dex 10
con 14
int 10
wis 14
cha 14

if you want more wis or str, then lower dex and int, giving you a 16 in either wis or str, but not both; choose whichever you plan on maxing out later on, likely wis
then you take your feats based on requirement for enhancements, of course
so, empower healing
we all agree heighten, might as well take it early and use it
and I like augmented summoning, for flavor
toughness is always a good idea
whatever else you like, feat swapping is really rather cheap, if you don't fool around too much
save your 'free' swap for a higher level

a weapon feat might be nice, like greatsword, or flamberge, or perhaps bastard sword or khopesh; depends on your taste and style; maul would be appropriate but they are lesser quality weapons, generally; warhammer would be nice, but also lesser quality; actually these weapons (all blunt weapons) should be defaults in the cleric list, and all non-blunt should be removed (though if we had an 'evil' option on character creation then non-blunt clerics would make sense)

[Mubjon]

So... about 50% of LFMs?

Is it that low? lol I have not pugged in awhile, about 3 months I guess now.

[yawumpus]

what you want is the average cleric; not too much casting power, turning, or combat
you don't want to be PURE nannybot, or offensive caster, spellcaster only

the answer is to not max out any one stat; whatever race you choose, likely human, make the stats average; basically all 12's, except for +wis, +str, and possibly others, so you reduce int and dex, maybe to minimums, but not necessarily, depends on build points, of course; with basic 28 build i believe you get something like this

str 14
dex 10
con 14
int 10
wis 14
cha 14

if you want more wis or str, then lower dex and int, giving you a 16 in either wis or str, but not both; choose whichever you plan on maxing out later on, likely wis
then you take your feats based on requirement for enhancements, of course
so, empower healing
we all agree heighten, might as well take it early and use it
and I like augmented summoning, for flavor
toughness is always a good idea
whatever else you like, feat swapping is really rather cheap, if you don't fool around too much
save your 'free' swap for a higher level

a weapon feat might be nice, like greatsword, or flamberge, or perhaps bastard sword or khopesh; depends on your taste and style; maul would be appropriate but they are lesser quality weapons, generally; warhammer would be nice, but also lesser quality; actually these weapons (all blunt weapons) should be defaults in the cleric list, and all non-blunt should be removed (though if we had an 'evil' option on character creation then non-blunt clerics would make sense)

I would strongly recommend starting with 18 wisdom. It is expensive, but DDO really is a min/max game. Those 4 points may only appear to be a +2 DC, but that is a +2 DC that is assumed in every build and the game is thus tuned. You will wind up wondering why mobs continually save against your spells. If you really want a nannybot/caster, take 18 wisdom, 14 constitution, 14 charisma. For a more balanced cleric, take 18 wisdom, 14 strength, 14 constitution (and let your turns regen).

[tl;dr]Take 18 wisdom. Command is cheaper than healing melee after they have been critted by ogres.

[PS. On weapons] Bring a great axe (or possibly greatsword if you find one with better magic) even if you don't take the feat (I can't recommend weapon feats on a cleric). Most wizards and sorcerers should be able to cast "masters touch" on you, and latter you can reasonably carry a stack of scrolls to hand them out if necessary. Otherwise either carry a mace and shield for combat, or just use your (healing) spellpower quarterstaff. Some players get used to switching weapons, but if watching all the red bars, remembering where the mobs are, and switching weapons is too much just stick with the quarterstaff. In either case, two handed weapons are better, especially if you went with 14 strength and possibly a strength item.

[jamvaru]

I would strongly recommend starting with 18 wisdom. It is expensive, but DDO really is a min/max game. Those 4 points may only appear to be a +2 DC, but that is a +2 DC that is assumed in every build and the game is thus tuned. You will wind up wondering why mobs continually save against your spells. If you really want a nannybot/caster, take 18 wisdom, 14 constitution, 14 charisma. For a more balanced cleric, take 18 wisdom, 14 strength, 14 constitution (and let your turns regen).

[tl;dr]Take 18 wisdom. Command is cheaper than healing melee after they have been critted by ogres.

[PS. On weapons] Bring a great axe (or possibly greatsword if you find one with better magic) even if you don't take the feat (I can't recommend weapon feats on a cleric). Most wizards and sorcerers should be able to cast "masters touch" on you, and latter you can reasonably carry a stack of scrolls to hand them out if necessary. Otherwise either carry a mace and shield for combat, or just use your (healing) spellpower quarterstaff. Some players get used to switching weapons, but if watching all the red bars, remembering where the mobs are, and switching weapons is too much just stick with the quarterstaff. In either case, two handed weapons are better, especially if you went with 14 strength and possibly a strength item.

i think he wasn't going for offensive caster but more of a battle cleric/nannybot or nannybot with swings