Best level breaks for Fighter/Ranger/Rogue

[SeltarisTsurinato]

I'm currently tinkering with a build of my own and one for a friend... my build is a 12 Ftr/6 Rgr/2 Rogue dwarf twf melee, while the friend's build is looking like 12 rogue/6 rgr/2ftr assassin. Anyone have any experience with either type of breakdown? Are those good level splits for a DPS/evasion tank and pure sneak damager/assassin respectively?

[RabidApathy]

The first build is generally referred to as a Monster build, and is quite solid (especially as human or helf for the versatility damage boost). The 2nd build I'd rather go 13/6/1. I think that the extra 1d6 SA and rogue bonus feat beats out the feat and small enhancements from the other fighter level. Either that or go 13 rogue/6 ranger/1 monk for the higher attack speed (which meshes wonderfully with all the SA damage).

[SeltarisTsurinato]

Thanks! I'm sticking dwarf with the former build, because I have two lit 2 Daxes in the bank from a prior 2wf barb life... the second one is just open to whatever works best. I'll look into the monk level, though you give up being centered with most twf rogue weapons (turb epees for DR breaking, envenomed blades, etc) don't you?

[RabidApathy]

Yes, the monk split relies on handwraps for weapons. Handwraps are significantly faster than TWF with other weapons. Faster attack speed means more hits and off hand hits, which means you apply your sneak attack damage more often.

I believe that the Midnight's Greeting counts as a monk weapon (though it won't benefit from the unarmed attack speed), however you will have trouble getting a reasonable assassinate DC with only 13 rogue levels anyway.

[unbongwah]

Rgr 6 gets you several feats, two FEs, and lvl 1 spells (Ram's Might); it's great for MCed melee/archer builds, IMHO. Unfortunately, Tempest I is pretty meh; you have to spend three feats for a pretty modest DPS boost (although admittedly 7% Dodge isn't bad to have). Tempest II is better: two more free feats (great for adding GTWF & IPS w/out meeting DEX pre-reqs), an extra FE, lvl 2 & 3 spells, and a "free" (as in: no add'l feats req'd) boost to TWF DPS.

Ftr 12 is considered the "sweet spot" for MCed Kensai; that gets you Haste Boost IV, STR +3 enhs, GWS, Power Surge, and all the Toughness enhs you can afford.

Rogues actually have a lot of potential break points; but in your friend's case I would go rog 13 to get an extra D6 sneak atk and 2 rog bonus feats (Imp Evasion & Opportunist). Although if the plan is to use handwraps, consider rog 19 / monk 1; you don't have to have the extra feats and the higher sneak atk, Assassinate DC, etc. is quite nice. See wowo's monk-splashed rogue.

[yawumpus]

Note: this assumes 32 point builds. For a 28 point melee-rogue see this 13/7 ranger/rogue, as those stats tend to get stretched to hit 17 dex for ITWF.

I can't see the point in less than 12 levels of ranger, unless you really want the bow feats and spells (trapping ability would be tricky: play with Ron's guide to see if you can get the levels where you need them). You get plenty of free feats with low levels of ranger, but you get nearly as many with fighter and often better enhancements as well.

I'd probably dump ranger on both of them and go with 18/2 fighter/rogue and 13/7 rogue/fighter (12/8 loses 1d6 SA, gains +1 damage and 4hp 1BAB). 12/6/2 would certainly get better trap skills and bow use.

ranger 2: pretty silly, but gets bow strength, TWF, FE, healing wand use, 1 FE
ranger 6: a bunch of stuff that is semi useful for TWF. I think manyshot is included and (at least used to) depends on BAB not ranger level, 2 FEs. You still need full dexterity for the rest of the TWF chain
ranger 12: gets you the full TWF chain (and IPS) without dex requirements. Other ranger goodness (3 FEs, a few spells), evasion
ranger 13: like 12 with a few more enhancements, sweet spot for ranger

ranger 15: gets pretty much everything a melee ranger would want. Downside: you are stuck with the AA ED until you grind out of it or have access to others through TRing.

rogue 1: trapsmithing unlocked. 1d6+3 SA, unlocks full UMD.
rogue 2: evasion (not needed with ranger>9)
rogue 6: unlocks rogue ED 3d6+12 SA, lots more skills
rogue 7: 4d6+15SA
rogue 12: unlocks assassin
rogue 13: 7d6+? SA little else.

fighter 1: free feat, nifty enhancments
fighter 2: another feat
fighter 6: unlocks kensei, more enhancements, unlocks fighter ED
fighter 12: sweet spot for kensei.
fighter 13: whole lot of nothing. Take rogue or ranger instead.

[SeltarisTsurinato]

on the 12/6/2 Fighter/Ranger/Rogue build, the main purpose of the 6rgr is to get spell buffs, a measure of self-healing through wand usage (since the deep fighter levels and lowish Int make getting a solid UMD score tough) and free up some of the fighter feats for tactics feats, to be used with the Dwarven Tactics and Fighter Improved Tactics lines.

I'm hearing a lot of Tempest I not worth it, why is that the case now? I haven't played rangers much in the past so not up on any recent buff/nerfs

[unbongwah]

In the old days, Tempest I provided a +10% atk speed bonus (while TWFing); but several updates ago when Turbine changed how TWF worked, it got reduced to a +10% offhand proc chance. As such it provides a much smaller boost to DPS than it used to. That said, as a rgr / ftr, you should have the feats to spare to pick up the Tempest pre-reqs anyway, so why not?

[AlteredState]

Dunno, the multi-shot part of the 6 ranger is really nice.

[Fedora]

I really like this MC build, since I am pretty much a soloist and this build is pretty self sufficient. I really respect unbongwah's opinions and expertise so I am posting this for some feed back.

Question - Is a Tempest II / Assassin I a good overall build? I splashed 2 fighter levels for the feats and fighter STR and also so the build would have a few more points of health.

Question - In general, are the level progressions okay the way I chose them? I decided on Rogue 2 first to get the skills and evasion, then 6 levels of Ranger to get Tempest I. After that I kind of went with my gut.

Question - Did I make any blaring mistakes or dumb choices in Feats or Enhancements?

Question - Favored enemies choices, without having to respec later, what are the best choices to make up front?

Last question - Can sneak attack and multi shot and point blank shot all work together? Can a sneak attack work with a ranged weapon?

Thanks!

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 6 Rogue \ 12 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 308
Spell Points: 265 
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 18
Will: 5

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             16                 21                   23
Dexterity            16                 16                   20
Constitution         14                 14                   14
Intelligence         14                 14                   14
Wisdom                8                  8                    8
Charisma              8                  8                    8

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               7                 15                   15
Bluff                 3                  7                    9
Concentration         2                  2                    2
Diplomacy            -1                 -1                   -1
Disable Device        6                 23                   24
Haggle               -1                 -1                   -1
Heal                 -1                 -1                   -1
Hide                  7                 23                   27
Intimidate           -1                 -1                   -1
Jump                  5                 23                   23
Listen                1                  1                    1
Move Silently         7                 23                   27
Open Lock             7                 23                   23
Perform              n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                  2                    2
Search                6                 22                   22
Spot                  3                 22                   22
Swim                  3                  6                    6
Tumble                7                 13                   13
Use Magic Device      3                 22                   22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Human Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
Enhancement: Ranger Energy Resistance Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I


Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I


Level 5 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Precise Shot
Spell (1): Camouflage
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Resist Energy
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Tumble
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II


Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I


Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Trapmaking
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge (Dodge Bonus)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 13 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 14 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Wild Empathy
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Archer's Focus
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 16 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Spell (2): Barkskin
Spell (2): Bear's Endurance
Spell (2): Cat's Grace
Spell (2): Hold Animal
Spell (2): Mass Camouflage
Spell (2): Owl's Wisdom
Spell (2): Protection From Energy
Spell (2): Snare
Spell (2): Spike Growth
Spell (2): Summon Nature's Ally II
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost III


Level 17 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV


Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Human
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III


Level 19 (Ranger)
Feat: (Automatic) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Precise Shot
Spell (3): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (3): Neutralize Poison
Spell (3): Remove Disease
Spell (3): Summon Nature's Ally III
Spell (3): Wild Instincts
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost IV


Level 20 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I