Virtuoso using CHA weapons?

[DarkchyldeLongbo]

I'm playing a bard currently (Brd4/Rog1 - to be WC Brd16/Rog2/Ftr2), and kinda loving it.

But... I'm not 100% sold on the whole WC Pre. The more I look at it, the less I think I like it. I DO, however, kinda like the idea of Enthrallment, and regenerating songs. And to top it all off, I wish I was a better caster, and that means more CHA. But I don't want to give up much melee capacity. So that means dumping CON, but I'm not THAT dumb, so it doesn't.

Impasse? No sir, my Google-Fu revealed the Elyd Edge, Dynastic Falcata, and Moonhowl Axe.

SWEET! Now I can drop STR instead of CON, and maybe not die every time the wind blows from the North-East. Pump up my CHA, better caster, and still maintain +atk and +dmg on melee swings.

Looks like a trip back to the drawing board for the Bard is in order.

I'd like to be able to continue to solo reasonably easily, so am somewhat worried about loosing the possibility to change weapons to suit the situation. I'm also concerned that if I splash Rogue for the trap skills, I miss out on a 'lot' of casting ability. But if I don't, I (obviously) can't disable traps - which also potentially limits my solo ability (or rather, limits the quests that I can solo through)

So... Is a melee based Virtuoso using those weapons (and upgrades to epics later on) boned because of pigeonholing to VERY specific weapons, or is it a decent idea?

For a high CHA Virtuoso (or SS for that matter - looks like that would be a very much better match up for end game type content) is it particularly important to stay pure versus splashing 2 rogue levels for traps, and maybe a FTR level for the feat?

[skullzz]

With the change to the armor system you can start with a 14 str and still hit pretty well granted not for as much but still hit.
With a 14 at end assuming you can get purple dragon gloves and helm your str self huffed with no yugos is 30 which is more than enough.

My mellee wizard has a 32 (36 using tensors) and that is with str as a 3rd Stat.

[voodoogroves]

Virtuoso's are under-valued by much of the community ... when they shine though they can really trivialize some content. Spellsingers are more broadly useful as a boost to casters, though take a bit to

If I were to build an epic wild-card farmer to use it'd be a human w/ the dragonmarks to bless chests, trap skills and a virtuoso. It wouldn't be my main, but an enthrallment DC in the stratosphere can really work magic. I've got a toon I need to finish leveling through life 2 before I start on his final (Bard) life, just struggling right now with paladin.


...

Back to your point though - building to only use CHA weapons is a trap. Being able to hit "enough" with STR but having a higher CHA and thus reaping the benefits of higher CHA when appropriate is better ... you want to swing a disruptor or smiter some time and not just your duel-Eyld Edges.

[AzB]

A FiRoBard is a difficult toon to build. You have to cover so many bases, they all have to give. Focusing on spellcasting is probably not worth it in the long run as you'll be casting as 16th level at 20th level anyway. At 4 levels below, you'll already need a big boost to even be mediocre, so I don't think it's really worth throwing precious resources at it.

I think it makes more sense to go for the basic CHA and perform skills to get the abilities and not to worry about going more unless you just happen to have a couple points left over.

I have both a pure lvl20 WC and a FiRoBard 16/2/2 WC. The pure is a much better bard. The FiRoBard adds very little to the melee abilities overall, and the thieving ability is solid up to hard difficulty, but is iffy on elite. However, there's a huge difference in the ability to heal, make enemies dance, etc.

I TR'ed the FiRoBard, the pure bard is played very little anymore, mostly just raids. Neither one of them is capable of soloing anything past Vale. Gianthold was a lot of fun, Vale was mostly good. Amrath, Necro4, Eveningstar are all impossible to solo on a bard. For the most part, even in a party the bard is essentially useless after buffs are handed out. With no real offensive spells, and mediocre melee dps combined with the sharp rise in defenses of drow, devils, druids, etc in later content, the bard is simply not up to the task. It's strictly a party toon, and in a MMO that is increasingly about soloing, or basically soloing with others, it's a pretty lame toon. And it's a shame, because it's really a lot of fun to play at lower levels. If they would give bards a way to drastically improve melee dps and/or give it some actual offensive magical capabilities, it would make it a much more survivable toon. In early D&D versions, the bard got Druid spells and abilities, albeit at later levels and not as many able to be cast. I mean, just having a dang firewall or some lightning would be incredibly helpful and really wouldn't be game breaking, especially at higher levels where several classes freely walk around doing multiple one shot kills on a regular basis.

[DarkchyldeLongbo]

It wouldn't be my main, but an enthrallment DC in the stratosphere can really work magic.

Any particular reason why not? You have other chars obviously, so that would be a factor, but something perks up in the back of my head and I think you're saying more "This char isn't really a viable main, but rather something fun to screw around on" rather than "I have a main, and this would be an alt". Of course, I could be misreading that entirely...

If I were to build an epic wild-card farmer to use it'd be a human w/ the dragonmarks to bless chests, trap skills and a virtuoso.

How would you go about building such a thing? Have to assume featless THF to make room for the dragonmarks? 18Brd/2Rog for trap skills? 16Brd/2Ftr/2Rog for martial weapons and extra feats?

[voodoogroves]

Any particular reason why not? You have other chars obviously, so that would be a factor, but something perks up in the back of my head and I think you're saying more "This char isn't really a viable main, but rather something fun to screw around on" rather than "I have a main, and this would be an alt". Of course, I could be misreading that entirely...

I'm to altoholic to have a main. I've been saving gear though and will be able to outfit it with solid epic kit.

It could be SOMEONE's viable main, just not mine ;-)

How would you go about building such a thing? Have to assume featless THF to make room for the dragonmarks? 18Brd/2Rog for trap skills? 16Brd/2Ftr/2Rog for martial weapons and extra feats?

My current decision point is if I go 16/2rogue/2fighter or 15/4 rogue/1 fighter (this would have uncanny dodge available, plus more rogue levels to help balance skills).

7 base feats, 1 human feat, 1-2 fighter feats = 8 to 10 feats to play with

Options

The core bits are
(3) Combat feats - TxF, ITxF, GTxF ... or PA / Cleave / Great Cleave ... but you want 3 core
(2) Lazy feats - Toughness and Improved Crit
(3) Dragonmarks

Optional bits are ... Weapon Focus, Extend, Quicken, Maximize

A Half-Orc could go 15/4/1 and get Uncanny Dodge + Virt 2 + Overwhelming Critical and half enough Rogue levels to offset the skill lacking.

A Human would have other options.

[Faent]

I can tell you that I play a high-CHA Spell Singer who wields dual Epic Elyd Edges *without* any of the TWF feats. And it's crappy DPS. She doesn't have them so she can do good DPS, however. She has them so she can get herself out of a pickle if she needs to, and they work for that (supplemented by CC), if slowly.

At some point, I intend to respec her to pick up the TWF line and see how much this improves her DPS. But I certainly wouldn't try going this route, if DPS is your goal, without taking that line of feats.

[sirgog]

A FiRoBard is a difficult toon to build. You have to cover so many bases, they all have to give. Focusing on spellcasting is probably not worth it in the long run as you'll be casting as 16th level at 20th level anyway. At 4 levels below, you'll already need a big boost to even be mediocre, so I don't think it's really worth throwing precious resources at it.

I think it makes more sense to go for the basic CHA and perform skills to get the abilities and not to worry about going more unless you just happen to have a couple points left over.

I have both a pure lvl20 WC and a FiRoBard 16/2/2 WC. The pure is a much better bard. The FiRoBard adds very little to the melee abilities overall, and the thieving ability is solid up to hard difficulty, but is iffy on elite. However, there's a huge difference in the ability to heal, make enemies dance, etc.

I TR'ed the FiRoBard, the pure bard is played very little anymore, mostly just raids. Neither one of them is capable of soloing anything past Vale. Gianthold was a lot of fun, Vale was mostly good. Amrath, Necro4, Eveningstar are all impossible to solo on a bard. For the most part, even in a party the bard is essentially useless after buffs are handed out. With no real offensive spells, and mediocre melee dps combined with the sharp rise in defenses of drow, devils, druids, etc in later content, the bard is simply not up to the task. It's strictly a party toon, and in a MMO that is increasingly about soloing, or basically soloing with others, it's a pretty lame toon. And it's a shame, because it's really a lot of fun to play at lower levels. If they would give bards a way to drastically improve melee dps and/or give it some actual offensive magical capabilities, it would make it a much more survivable toon. In early D&D versions, the bard got Druid spells and abilities, albeit at later levels and not as many able to be cast. I mean, just having a dang firewall or some lightning would be incredibly helpful and really wouldn't be game breaking, especially at higher levels where several classes freely walk around doing multiple one shot kills on a regular basis.

You underestimate bard soloing. Although I can't do it fast enough to be practical, my bard Migrane (on Khyber) can definitely solo epic elite trash pulls and has soloed all of the CITW flagging on EH.

Fascinate when overwhelmed, isolate one mob and Irresistable Dance it and beat it down with DPS weapons, or dualwield Improved Paralyzing weapons. Sing Dirge and kite when you need AoE DPS.

[Faent]

You underestimate bard soloing. Although I can't do it fast enough to be practical, my bard Migrane (on Khyber) can definitely solo epic elite trash pulls and has soloed all of the CITW flagging on EH.

Fascinate when overwhelmed, isolate one mob and Irresistable Dance it and beat it down with DPS weapons, or dualwield Improved Paralyzing weapons. Sing Dirge and kite when you need AoE DPS.

Any bard can solo this stuff given enough time. That your bard can manage to crawl through content like a snail is not impressive.

[voodoogroves]

On a different note, I'm half-tempted to try a DEX/CHA bard using only DEX to damage or CHA to damage weapons. I've got one character with most of these collected anyway. DEX enough for the TWF feats + maybe racial adds, CHA with bard levels. It could work, I suppose ... half-elf seems a good choice for the rogue dilettante.

[AzB]

You underestimate bard soloing. Although I can't do it fast enough to be practical,

Ok, let me reword my original point. You can do it, sometimes, but it will be only to prove a point as it won't be quick, it won't be pretty, you'll die a lot trying, and most of all it won't be fun.

And there are increasingly more and more specific encounters that are impossible as you pass mid-high levels. Once you get to 19 and beyond, it's essentially pointless. While there may be a few specific quests you can manage to do, there are far more that you simply don't have the dps for. Too many red names, sometimes more than one at a time, with huge damage, high resistances...

Then try that same quest again with a monk, a wiz/sorc, druid, arti, or well built cleric. Tell me there's not a huge divide in capabilities.

[NovaNZ]

A FiRoBard is a difficult toon to build. You have to cover so many bases, they all have to give. Focusing on spellcasting is probably not worth it in the long run as you'll be casting as 16th level at 20th level anyway. At 4 levels below, you'll already need a big boost to even be mediocre, so I don't think it's really worth throwing precious resources at it.

generally agreed

I think it makes more sense to go for the basic CHA and perform skills to get the abilities and not to worry about going more unless you just happen to have a couple points left over.

generally agreed

I have both a pure lvl20 WC and a FiRoBard 16/2/2 WC. The pure is a much better bard. The FiRoBard adds very little to the melee abilities overall, and the thieving ability is solid up to hard difficulty, but is iffy on elite. However, there's a huge difference in the ability to heal, make enemies dance, etc.

Insulated opinion is obvioulsy different from fact. I see statements galore but thats about it.

I TR'ed the FiRoBard, the pure bard is played very little anymore, mostly just raids. Neither one of them is capable of soloing anything past Vale. Gianthold was a lot of fun, Vale was mostly good. Amrath, Necro4, Eveningstar are all impossible to solo on a bard. For the most part, even in a party the bard is essentially useless after buffs are handed out. With no real offensive spells, and mediocre melee dps combined with the sharp rise in defenses of drow, devils, druids, etc in later content, the bard is simply not up to the task. It's strictly a party toon, and in a MMO that is increasingly about soloing, or basically soloing with others, it's a pretty lame toon. And it's a shame, because it's really a lot of fun to play at lower levels. If they would give bards a way to drastically improve melee dps and/or give it some actual offensive magical capabilities, it would make it a much more survivable toon. In early D&D versions, the bard got Druid spells and abilities, albeit at later levels and not as many able to be cast. I mean, just having a dang firewall or some lightning would be incredibly helpful and really wouldn't be game breaking, especially at higher levels where several classes freely walk around doing multiple one shot kills on a regular basis.

Disregarded as nonsense

Responses in red

[sirgog]

Ok, let me reword my original point. You can do it, sometimes, but it will be only to prove a point as it won't be quick, it won't be pretty, you'll die a lot trying, and most of all it won't be fun.

And there are increasingly more and more specific encounters that are impossible as you pass mid-high levels. Once you get to 19 and beyond, it's essentially pointless. While there may be a few specific quests you can manage to do, there are far more that you simply don't have the dps for. Too many red names, sometimes more than one at a time, with huge damage, high resistances...

Then try that same quest again with a monk, a wiz/sorc, druid, arti, or well built cleric. Tell me there's not a huge divide in capabilities.

9th level caster classes are definitely better for soloing (counting EiN as a 9th level spell here, if you think that's cheating bite me).

But bards definitely solo better than fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins or rogues IMO. Fascinate, medium quality in-combat burst healing, and enough sustained no mana cost DPS to get the job done except against the most extreme self-healing bosses.

The ability to fascinate respawns is just incredible in a fair number of quests.

[Xoan]

I would agree with both AzB and Sirgog. I personally have a 17/3 Bard/Rogue, and it does well, but as a WC I am group dependent really in the higher level areas. Yes it is nice to be able to fascinate the trash, but the problem I have is the red names, they smash me down faster than I can kill them. Also I do not hit as hard as many of those other classes, and there is no escaping the Red name normally because they are immune to everything I have CC wise.

When I was leveling I played as a Virt Bard, and I do have to agree with that too. That is the best solo spec bard out of the 3. Having a single target Dance based on your Perform is crazy. Regenerating your songs is extremely helpful too, but groups do not get what they want from you which is the WC or the SS buffs. If you put up your Virt healing song, they might ask you to leave when they see you went a path that heals 2 to 4 points of damage every few seconds. heh


With my Bard I used a stone later in life to get the exact Cha I needed, and I chose to only have a 13 with a +2 tome. Because with the gear I had as a 2nd lifer, I could cast my list of spells on 6 people while extended. Bards who do not focus everything they have into casting spells offensively, should not ever try to at any point and time. Our spells stop at 6th, so even heightened spell puts us 3 DC down, and if we do not focus totally on it, we can not even get close to a poor caster DC of 37 for the end game. Basically unless you are a max Cha bard, with the feats you need, and past lives, I would not even bother with offensive spells at all.

[Bahamut2119]

Ok, let me reword my original point. You can do it, sometimes, but it will be only to prove a point as it won't be quick, it won't be pretty, you'll die a lot trying, and most of all it won't be fun.

And there are increasingly more and more specific encounters that are impossible as you pass mid-high levels. Once you get to 19 and beyond, it's essentially pointless. While there may be a few specific quests you can manage to do, there are far more that you simply don't have the dps for. Too many red names, sometimes more than one at a time, with huge damage, high resistances...

Then try that same quest again with a monk, a wiz/sorc, druid, arti, or well built cleric. Tell me there's not a huge divide in capabilities.

You totally underestimate what a very well geared bard can do and cant do. Barnor my 15/3/2 bard fighter rogue can and has soloed almost every epic quest i have access to do on hard a few on elite without death. My dps output is barb caliber i wont hit as hard as a surging 80-100 str half orc barb but i will crit in the 500-800's and still heal myself like im a cleric. Admittedly it take alot of time a patience and quite a few mana pots but its doable. Dont belive me? roll a warchanter with maxed str grind out thinks like a esos and go for it.

[DarkchyldeLongbo]

You totally underestimate what a very well geared bard can do and cant do. Barnor my 15/3/2 bard fighter rogue can and has soloed almost every epic quest i have access to do on hard a few on elite without death. My dps output is barb caliber i wont hit as hard as a surging 80-100 str half orc barb but i will crit in the 500-800's and still heal myself like im a cleric. Admittedly it take alot of time a patience and quite a few mana pots but its doable. Dont belive me? roll a warchanter with maxed str grind out thinks like a esos and go for it.

The link in your sig to Barnor is an 18/2, not 15/3/2, or I'd just pull this info from there...

Do you find yourself having difficulty with traps as a bard, or are you viable with that all the way through? I'd like to add traps to my build, to increase the group utility and solo abilities, but if I'll "never" be able to trap elites or epics, then it seems like a waste of time.

[voodoogroves]

The link in your sig to Barnor is an 18/2, not 15/3/2, or I'd just pull this info from there...

Do you find yourself having difficulty with traps as a bard, or are you viable with that all the way through? I'd like to add traps to my build, to increase the group utility and solo abilities, but if I'll "never" be able to trap elites or epics, then it seems like a waste of time.

It's all about gear and skill points.

You'll want to be using a race that (at the least) has no INT penalty, ideally one with spare skill points or an INT bonus. Search, Disable and Open are all cross-class; even if you don't max Open (there is very little content that requires it, though as a point of pride I made sure my rogue could farm those areas and had the skills to do so). You'll also want Perform, UMD and Concentration ... maybe Balance ... and I have a hard time with a bard who can't Bluff or Diplo. Anyway, you start to run out fast. You can get more mileage by doing a deeper rogue splash (I've got one on paper at 15 bard 4 rogue 1 fighter) and spacing the rogue levels (say, 1st, 7th, 14th, 20th) to try to get the most mileage out of your skill points, but you're probably going to end up wanting to use your free LR later anyway to even things out.

Totally doable. Takes some effort though.


As far as gear goes, there are +20 skill items for Search, Spot, Disable, Open Locks and +5 exceptional for most of them as well. That's 25 ... + 2 luck + 4 GH + 5 or so from INT ... 23 ranks ... 1 focusing chant ... and you're at 60, which is the standard benchmark for most epic content (though not things like the door in VoN1). Skill boost, some AP spent maybe, spider mask, more INT, etc. and 70 is pretty easily achievable with (again) just a bit of work. Tools are +7, etc. etc.

I think the VoN 1 locked door is a 90-ish Open DC, FWIW. There aren't many in that range though.

[DarkchyldeLongbo]

Character Generated Using: DDO Character Generator
Direct Link to Build: http://www.ddochargen.com/home.aspx?build=33333

Bard 16 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2
Male Human - Chaotic Good
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 1:
Race Selected: Male Human
Alignment Selected: Chaotic Good
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 1)
Abilities Raised: STR: 16, CON: 16, INT: 14, CHA: 14
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +4 (4), Bluff +4 (4), 
Diplomacy +4 (4), Disable Device +4 (4), Haggle +4 (4), 
Jump +4 (4), Open Lock +4 (4), Search +4 (4), Swim +4 (4), 
Tumble +4 (4), UMD +4 (4)
Feats Selected: Toughness, Two-Handed Fighting
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 2:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 1 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (5), 
Perform +5 (5), Search +1 (5)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 3:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 2 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (6), 
Open Lock +2 (6), Perform +1 (6), Search +1 (6)
Feats Selected: Maximize Spell
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 4:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 3 / Rogue 1)
Abilities Raised: STR: 17
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (7), 
Open Lock +0.5 (6.5), Perform +1 (7), Search +1 (7), UMD +3 (7)
Enhancements Selected: Bard Extra Song I, Improved Perform I, 
Improved Disable Device I, Bard Charisma I, Improved Search I, 
Bard Lingering Song I, Bard Song Magic I, Bard Lyric of Song I, 
Racial Toughness I, Rogue Skill Boost I, Bard Inspired Attack I, 
Rogue Sneak Attack Training I, Human Improved Recovery I
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 5:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 4 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (8), 
Open Lock +1.5 (8), Perform +1 (8), Search +1 (8), UMD +1 (8)
Enhancements Selected: Human Adaptability Strength I, 
Bard Extra Song II
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 6:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 5 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (5), Disable Device +1 (9), 
Open Lock +1 (9), Perform +1 (9), Search +1 (9), UMD +1 (9)
Feats Selected: Skill Focus (Perform)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 7:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 6 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (6), Disable Device +1 (10), 
Open Lock +1 (10), Perform +1 (10), Search +1 (10), UMD +1 (10)
Enhancements Selected: Improved Perform II, 
Bard Virtuoso I, Racial Toughness II, Bard Inspired Damage I
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 8:
Class Selected: Fighter (Bard 6 / Fighter 1 / Rogue 1)
Abilities Raised: STR: 19
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (11), 
Perform +1 (11), Search +0.5 (10.5)
Feats Selected: Improved Two-Handed Fighting
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 9:
Class Selected: Fighter (Bard 6 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (12), 
Perform +1 (12), Search +0.5 (11)
Feats Selected: Weapon Focus (Slashing), Power Attack
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 10:
Class Selected: Rogue (Bard 6 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (13), 
Open Lock +3 (13), Perform +1 (13), Search +2 (13), UMD +3 (13)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 11:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 7 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (7), Disable Device +1 (14), 
Open Lock +1 (14), Perform +1 (14), Search +1 (14), UMD +1 (14)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 12:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 8 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2)
Abilities Raised: STR: 20
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (8), Disable Device +1 (15), 
Open Lock +1 (15), Perform +1 (15), Search +1 (15), UMD +1 (15)
Feats Selected: Improved Critical (Slashing)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 13:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 9 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (9), Disable Device +1 (16), 
Open Lock +1 (16), Perform +1 (16), Search +1 (16), UMD +1 (16)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 14:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 10 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (10), Disable Device +1 (17), 
Open Lock +1 (17), Perform +1 (17), Search +1 (17), UMD +1 (17)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 15:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 11 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (11), Disable Device +1 (18), 
Open Lock +1 (18), Perform +1 (18), Search +1 (18), UMD +1 (18)
Feats Selected: Greater Two-Handed Fighting
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 16:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 12 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2)
Abilities Raised: STR: 21
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (12), Disable Device +1 (19), 
Open Lock +1 (19), Perform +1 (19), Search +1 (19), UMD +1 (19)
Enhancements Selected: Bard Charisma II, Bard Lingering Song II, 
Bard Extra Song III, Fighter Toughness I, Bard Music of the Makers, 
Bard Music of the Dead, Bard Lingering Song III, Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I, 
Bard Virtuoso II, Racial Toughness III, Bard Inspired Attack II, 
Bard Inspired Damage II, Bard Lyric of Song II, Fighter Strength I
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 17:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 13 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (13), Disable Device +1 (20), 
Open Lock +1 (20), Perform +1 (20), Search +1 (20), UMD +1 (20)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 18:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 14 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (14), Disable Device +1 (21), 
Open Lock +1 (21), Perform +1 (21), Search +1 (21), UMD +1 (21)
Feats Selected: Extend Spell
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 19:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 15 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (15), Disable Device +1 (22), 
Open Lock +1 (22), Perform +1 (22), Search +1 (22), UMD +1 (22)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 20:
Class Selected: Bard (Bard 16 / Fighter 2 / Rogue 2)
Abilities Raised: STR: 23
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (23), 
Jump +1 (5), Open Lock +1 (23), Perform +1 (23), Search +1 (23), 
UMD +1 (23)
Enhancements Selected: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I, 
Bard Lingering Song IV, Bard Inspired Damage III, Bard Inspired Attack III, 
Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I, Bard Inspired Bravery I
Stats at End of Level 20:
HP:270 SP:500 AC:9 FORT:11 REFL:12 WILL:9 BAB:+15/+15/+20/+25
STR:23(+6) DEX:8(-1) CON:17(+3) INT:14(+2) WIS:8(-1) CHA:16(+3)
Balance:14, Bluff:7, Concentration:3, Diplomacy:11, 
Disable Device:26, Haggle:7, Heal:-1, Hide:-1, Intimidate:3, 
Jump:11, Listen:3, Move Silently:-1, Open Lock:22, 
Perform:35, Repair:2, Search:26, Spot:-1, Swim:10, Tumble:3, UMD:26

I suppose I could take points out of open lock and add them to Bluff or Diplo for anti-agro when needed. I have a +2 str tome thats BTC (birthday cake I think... no idea, glad I checked the bank before deleting it though) and could reasonably afford to eat a +2 int tome on it at lvl 7 for more skill points if needed.

Probably swap out some feat levels to get extend before I pick up Haste (Extend lvl 9, Power Attack level 18 sound reasonable?)




Hows this looking everyone?

Edit: As an aside, I'll probably swap over to SS as an eventuality. Virt looks like a lot of fun and useful for soloing and leveling, but I think endgame content dictates that I be more of a team player and give my cleric his SP back.

[voodoogroves]

Hows this looking everyone?

Edit: As an aside, I'll probably swap over to SS as an eventuality. Virt looks like a lot of fun and useful for soloing and leveling, but I think endgame content dictates that I be more of a team player and give my cleric his SP back.

Looks solid enough - you can see what I mean about skills being tight; you can definitely fit in what you need ... the extra bard goodness (haggle, bluff, diplo, etc.) are harder to sham in.

Before you go SS, wait and see how you like Virt at end game. It's one thing to get your cleric his SP back ... and something else entirely to enthrall everything so he can pike to completion.

[DarkchyldeLongbo]

Looks solid enough - you can see what I mean about skills being tight; you can definitely fit in what you need ... the extra bard goodness (haggle, bluff, diplo, etc.) are harder to sham in.

Before you go SS, wait and see how you like Virt at end game. It's one thing to get your cleric his SP back ... and something else entirely to enthrall everything so he can pike to completion.

I'll defiantly not just arbitrarily switch, but if I feel that Virt isn't cutting it, SS will be my backup plan.

And yeah, haggle isn't even a consideration - even with 14 int it won't fit. Taking the fighter levels early helps because you have the next bunch to play catch up, but ... ugh.

I appreciate your input throughout this process Voodoo!