Melee FvS question

[WruntJunior]

Planning out my final life on Youngwrunt (TRing just to get up to 36-point build), I've been thinking about whether or not it's worth picking up /2 fighter instead of staying pure. The difference would be up to 3 feats (as I would be able to go human rather than going half-elf for fighter dilly) so that I can pick up the overwhelming critical line (already have full THF line), or I could go half-orc and, while having more trouble getting the OC line and less healing amp, I would get greater THF damage. However, this higher damage comes at a trade-off of survivability in the loss of 10 dr and free clw.

Part of this consideration is the fact that I'm working towards Legendary Dreadnought now, and am considering the momentum swing line.

The healing part is easy with this character...my main question is people's opinion on which build of 3 would be best for DPS purposes:

20 FvS Half-Elf (fighter dilly for martial proficiency)
18 FvS/2 Fighter Human (all feats of half-elf + cleave/great cleave/overwhelming critical)
18 FvS/2 Fighter Half-Orc (all feats of half-elf - empower + cleave/great cleave/overwhelming critical)

For reference, 20 FvS has the feats Empower, Maximize, Quicken, Toughness, Improved Critical: Slashing, THF, ITHF, GTHF, and Power Attack.

As a further thought, /2 monk is a possible choice.

Edit: Making a level 24 cloak of night in case I decide a splash build is best and still want the 10 DR. I'm spoiled on my DR. >_>

Second edit: Currently leaning toward 18 FvS/2 Fighter Half-Orc.

Third Edit: Build I chose in post #3: 18 FvS/2 Fighter Human.

[vraelliott]

Hey Wrunt--sorry for the minor Necro, but I'd love to see the build that you use for your final life. Considering TR'ing one of my toons into a similar build and am trying to collect what information I can.

Thanks!

[WruntJunior]

Okay, I'll post the build I wound up using. Went with healing amp over DPS (Human over Half-Orc, in other words).

Can't find a good character planner to export, so this is going to be a bit of a mess.

Side note, tomes are completely unnecessary for this build, though they do help. In addition, while I don't max str/con (take con to 16, put a few into int and rest into cha), if skill points aren't important to you, you can. Could do something to the effect of 18/8/18/12/8/8 even.

Leveling order: 1 Fighter, 2-19 Favored Soul, 20 Fighter

Starting stats
Strength: 18
Dexterity: 8
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 12

Feats
Level  1: Toughness, Power Attack, THF
Level  3: Empower
Level  6: Maximize
Level  9: Quicken
Level 12: Improved Crit: Slashing
Level 15: ITHF
Level 18: GTHF
Level 20: Cleave
Level 21: Great Cleave
Level 24: Overwhelming Critical

Skills
Max UMD
Max Concentration
Put some into tumble
Put some into jump
whatever else

Enhancements
Favored Soul Toughness I
Favored Soul Energy of the Scion I
Human Versatility I
Favored Soul Smiting I
Favored Soul Life Magic I
Human Improved Recovery I
Favored Soul Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Favored Soul Prayer of Smiting I
Favored Soul Prayer of Life I
Racial Toughness I
Favored Soul Smiting II
Human Versatility II
Favored Soul Toughness II
Favored Soul Life Magic II
Human Adaptability Constitution I
Favored Soul Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Favored Soul Energy of the Scion II
Human Improved Recovery II
Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
Unyielding Sovereignty (Favored Soul)
Racial Toughness II
Human Versatility III
Favored Soul Life Magic III
Favored Soul Toughness III
Favored Soul Smiting III
Favored Soul Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Favored Soul Energy of the Scion III
Racial Toughness III
Human Improved Recovery III
Favored Soul Life Magic IV
Favored Soul Smiting IV
Human Versatility IV
Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance II

As a side-note, I do find it a little amusing that my thread over a question that took me over a month to decide gets necroed (and posted in for the first time) after I get back to level 20 with my decision. :P

So far this build is working quite well, and I can't wait to see how it performs with full twists (though that'll be a bit from now, as I don't have that much sanity to spare at this time of year).

Edit: Currently planning to be lazy with twists and only get 1/1/1 instead of 4/2/1 capabilities, as I'm currently planning to get Brace for Impact/Primal Scream/Rejuvenation Cocoon. Eventually will get Sense Weakness available...but too much work for now. :P

[vraelliott]

Thanks for the quick reply Wrunt. I considered sending you a PM but figured that others might benefit, which can only be a good thing.

Human looks a lot more versatile than the Horc build I was considering--better heal amp, room for Max/Emp for BB/DP. I was considering going without Max and Empower on the HOrc, picking up Empower Heal and just worrying about healing and melee for my first life as a battle divine--I'm still not sure what I'll do. Divine Punishment is just so good.

I have a full set of +3 tomes on this toon, so I'll probably start with either 9 or 11 INT, depending on what skills I decide I want to build in.

The enhancement list basically boils down to:
Human Adaptability Constitution I
Unyielding Sovereignty (Favored Soul)
Favored Soul Toughness III
Favored Soul Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Favored Soul Energy of the Scion III
Racial Toughness III
Human Improved Recovery III
Favored Soul Life Magic IV
Favored Soul Smiting IV
Human Versatility IV
Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance II

[voodoogroves]

The extra feat for human is golden, though I suppose you could drop Empower (ouch).

[WruntJunior]

The extra feat for human is golden, though I suppose you could drop Empower (ouch).

Empower and healing amp (30% is a lot, and I easily have the enhancement room for it) is a big deal to me, and the reasons human eventually won out (though half-orc could do a good chunk more damage...something like ~10 points/swing more).

[voodoogroves]

Empower and healing amp (30% is a lot, and I easily have the enhancement room for it) is a big deal to me, and the reasons human eventually won out (though half-orc could do a good chunk more damage...something like ~10 points/swing more).

Right, and DP hits harder, etc.

Totally behind a human build.

[notte.oscura]

no weapon proficiency (= no PRR)?
maxed starting str (18 starting str = 6 build points only to go from 16 to 18, + probably all 6 level ups) and no stunning blow?

just questions, i'm not criticizing, though it seems very different from what i'd build (and it's a good thing that we have so many choices).

[voodoogroves]

no weapon proficiency (= no PRR)?
maxed starting str (18 starting str = 6 build points only to go from 16 to 18, + probably all 6 level ups) and no stunning blow?

just questions, i'm not criticizing, though it seems very different from what i'd build (and it's a good thing that we have so many choices).

Two fighter levels = proficiency

This is essentially an 18/2 FVS lord of blades that is human and not WF.

[notte.oscura]

Two fighter levels = proficiency

This is essentially an 18/2 FVS lord of blades that is human and not WF.

Sorry, my mistake, i don't know why i thought it was 18/2 monk instead of fighter, probably because i have a 17/2/1 cleric/monk/wiz and i'm addicted to 2 levels of monk in general

Still not sure about passing on stunning blow, it could be a valuable addition in my opinion, given the maxed str.

[WruntJunior]

Sorry, my mistake, i don't know why i thought it was 18/2 monk instead of fighter, probably because i have a 17/2/1 cleric/monk/wiz and i'm addicted to 2 levels of monk in general

Still not sure about passing on stunning blow, it could be a valuable addition in my opinion, given the maxed str.

Not enough feats for stunning blow, plain and simple.

[Symerith]

Helf 18/2 fighter with rog. dillie will be the highest DPS of all 3 (human, helf and horc).

I'd go dex over cha anytime. So easy to get to 8 base + 4 tome + 2 ship +7 item + 1 enh. +2 yugo = 24 more than enough.

Saves have become very important with the release of motu.

"Not taking Stunning blow on a melee is critical" - Nick once said that and that was wayyy before we got access to non-weapon items with +10 stunning as an option.

Feats would look like this :
Cleave
Greater Cleave
Overwhelming Critical
PA
Toughness
Completionist (or Toughness)
Stunning Blow
Max
Emp
Quicken

Twisted Sense of weakness/tunnel vision/Brace of impact
Epic Destiny : Legendary Dreadnought

Video here to see how the build performs in EE content : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OefFOUUW-w

[HalfORCastrator]

There are just so many ways to make a melee divine, overwhelms me at times. lol

Been looking into making a 32pt first life and this is what I've been slowly ending up to. 18fvs/2ftr human. Get all the feats you want, don't need emp heal as a cleric, heal amp, dmg boost, skill pts to make up for my lack of ability points.


Doesn't human damage boost make up for the dps loss? (nevermind what's overall better, just straight dps comparison)

[WruntJunior]

There are just so many ways to make a melee divine, overwhelms me at times. lol

Been looking into making a 32pt first life and this is what I've been slowly ending up to. 18fvs/2ftr human. Get all the feats you want, don't need emp heal as a cleric, heal amp, dmg boost, skill pts to make up for my lack of ability points.


Doesn't human damage boost make up for the dps loss? (nevermind what's overall better, just straight dps comparison)

FvS get damage boost as an enhancement, but human damage boost is really nice for getting to pair it with haste boost (haste boost 1 from leveling, or LD haste boost at cap).

Also, this is my third build I've tried (first was a WF FvS, minimal dps feats; second was a helf FvS, GTHF line added; third and final is this build, finally getting to add OC to the build).

Only problem I have with this build is the feats are so tight with my requirements for both melee feats and casting feats, leaving me no real wiggle room. Some day I may be able to talk myself into dropping empower to pick up something like stunning blow, though, once I've better optimized the build...but for now, it's hard to fit in.

[notte.oscura]

Not enough feats for stunning blow, plain and simple.

Of course it would be a trade-off, if we had unlimited feats we would not be here discussing about builds

Is the THF line really needed while having Cleave, Great Cleave, and probably Lay Waste and Momentum Swing from LD? Do those 'tactical attacks' benefit from the THF line?

Would you sacrifice at least GTHF to get another CC / great damage enhancing (Combat Brute + Sense Weakness) move?
I would do that every day, but variety and personal preference is the beauty of this game, at least for me

[Symerith]

There are just so many ways to make a melee divine, overwhelms me at times. lol

Been looking into making a 32pt first life and this is what I've been slowly ending up to. 18fvs/2ftr human. Get all the feats you want, don't need emp heal as a cleric, heal amp, dmg boost, skill pts to make up for my lack of ability points.


Doesn't human damage boost make up for the dps loss? (nevermind what's overall better, just straight dps comparison)

With 9+ charges of haste+dmge boost, I've found it's way more than enough for most content.
Not a math guy but simply put, the extra dmge the horc gets from str+PA+thf, he loses vs 3d6 SA damage. Goes further knowing the helf version is dual boosted just about all the time.

[azrael4h]

There are just so many ways to make a melee divine, overwhelms me at times. lol

Been looking into making a 32pt first life and this is what I've been slowly ending up to. 18fvs/2ftr human. Get all the feats you want, don't need emp heal as a cleric, heal amp, dmg boost, skill pts to make up for my lack of ability points.


Doesn't human damage boost make up for the dps loss? (nevermind what's overall better, just straight dps comparison)

FvS gets Damage Boost as well. After it was upgraded, I made frequent use of it on my old Half-Elven FvS THF melee. She's long since TRed though, and nearing another TR, so I don't know how effective the build would be these days. With Fighter levels, and later in LD, you'd have Haste Boost as well.

*edit* ninja'd

[HalfORCastrator]

FvS get damage boost as an enhancement, but human damage boost is really nice for getting to pair it with haste boost (haste boost 1 from leveling, or LD haste boost at cap).

Also, this is my third build I've tried (first was a WF FvS, minimal dps feats; second was a helf FvS, GTHF line added; third and final is this build, finally getting to add OC to the build).

Only problem I have with this build is the feats are so tight with my requirements for both melee feats and casting feats, leaving me no real wiggle room. Some day I may be able to talk myself into dropping empower to pick up something like stunning blow, though, once I've better optimized the build...but for now, it's hard to fit in.

But even without haste boost, doesn't the extra time(in addition to fvs boost) on dmg boost make up for the ~10 dmg of Horc? Encounters aren't always so short...

edit: Yes, I know about FVS dmg boost. My meaning was "in addition to".

EDIT:

With 9+ charges of haste+dmge boost, I've found it's way more than enough for most content.
Not a math guy but simply put, the extra dmge the horc gets from str+PA+thf, he loses vs 3d6 SA damage. Goes further knowing the helf version is dual boosted just about all the time.

If only I didn't really want that bare minimum of feats. ;/ Rog dilly is very appealing though. This is why I'm having a hard time deciding between thf and twf, twf is less feat intensive since you don't feel pressured to get Cleaves for Momentum Swing/Lay Waste. Then there's all the different mixes... (and I don't have esos, would be eaga if I went thf)

EDIT:
Doesn't the horc still have more dmg? 3d6=21=10.5 avg dmg. Horc gets +6thf pa dmg, +x str dmg(3-4). Horc dmg gets boosted by dmg boost too, gets applied to crits, and boosts glancing blows a bit too.

edit: forgot the +4 to thf.

[Carpone]

I've been playing the 18 fvs/2 fighter/5 LD for two months at cap and I absolutely love it. I went with Human for similar reasons: extra feat, heal amp and versatility. Helf is perfectly fine too, trading GTHF for 3d6 SA. Starting stats are 18 STR/18 CON/12 CHA because the only skills I care about are UMD and Balance, and I'm DEX capped in heavy armor. 4/1/1 is enough for this build: Tier4 Sense Weakness, Tier1 Primal Scream, Tier1 10% SP. I go with 10% SP over Rejuv Cocoon because I prefer Mass Heal/Cure over single-target healing as a matter of play style.

I first tried a variant with Improved Sunder, Stunning Blow and Epic Toughness instead of the THF line. I just couldn't push up DCs high enough for Stunning Blow to matter consistently in U16 EE content, even prepping the mob with Improved Sunder. Using Energy Drain to prep mobs was just too mana intensive, and I hate swapping between Enervation scrolls and weapons while in melee.

Playstyles will vary, but I play this character as a self-healing melee not as a "I'm trying to do it all" build. Between 12 haste/versatility boosts and 12 fvs damage boosts, I really wanted to minimize the time I was casting spells so I could maximize meleeing. Also, I just don't have the mana pool to keep DP on a target full-time in raids and heal. With dumping WIS, Blade Barrier is rather anemic. So I traded Empower Spell for Empower Heal Spell (I use Mass Heal a bit) and I don't gear for Radiance/Impact/Alignment. Otherwise our feat list is the same.

The biggest challenge was finding the right set of gear for this toon:

Head: Abishai (GFL)
Boots: Abishai (Good Luck, 6 DEX)
Cloak: Abishai (+1 exceptional STR)
Neck: Verik's (+2 action boosts)
Ring: Verik's with 78 Devotion
Ring: Avithoul
Weapon: eSoS/eAGA
Trinket: Planar Conflux (+3 CHA pre-shrine, +3 STR when meleeing). Holy Symbol of Lolth if you insist on DP/BB.
Belt: Green Steel 45 HP/Smoke/+6 DEX skills
Chest: Cormyrian Red Dragonplate
Bracer: eClaw
Gloves: eClaw
Goggles: Green Steel 150 SP/ConcOpp/Wizardry 6

Before shrining I'll equip +3 CHA Planar Conflux and a CitW weapon for ~260 more SP to buff with. Combined with 10% mana pool from EA that places my SP at ~2800. I'd be interested to get feedback on this gear setup. Is there a better way?

This build will be even more interesting if humans get access to Stalwart Defender in the U18 prestige revamp, and whatever Divine Avenger brings.

[MAP1974]

i'll throw this quick little query in here.

i used to have a 17/2/1 FS/monk/fighter. the char was wf given it had certain gear that i wanted to make use of, and i loved the feats. it was my 'melee' char, and its build was partly a result of me often playing solo.

is such a class breakdown a real hindrance to making this char again?

i'd probably go LD in terms of destiny, i've just done that on my bard and was completely blown away by it (having said that i've not done the EA side of the destiny tree!).