Returning from elsewhen

[xtchizobr]

TL;DR: Haven't played DDO since before u14, loved my WF Wiz/2Rog to death. How shall I best create a Wizard in the current game?

Problem: UMD'd Heal and Raise Dead scrolls were almighty for my play style before, but not for my Warforged himself -- for supplementing the party's healing and saving them from wipes! He was always the last to die, and almost never did anyway, preventing a great many unrecoverable situations. He could deal with traps about as well as any other Rogue his level, sustaining Haste and flinging effective-enough CC spells, was generally the supreme utility and solo-master. I never was all that interested in ultra-high-difficulty instances, just generally doing what I wanted to do which was usually Tor and DQ on Hard-ish (even served as the sole healer for a few DQ runs...). I liked being able to do just about anything even though the decrease in caster level was a bit rough in a few spots. The fact is that I felt the dramatically increased survivability and trap-monkeying (there's never a good Rogue or Cleric when you're LFG) more than made up for it, to put it lightly. Level 8 spells sucked back then, but I left for other things before hitting Wizard level 17.

If I thought it would be worth it, I'd make a pure-Wizard build, but I simply can't stand the idea of doing without half-decent UMD, even though I might do without the trap-monkeying if I had to.

Would it be possible to create a Wizard with enough UMD to throw Heal scrolls even without outrageous amounts of money and wildly exotic items? That Golden Cartouche, Voice of the Master and Skill Focus: UMD were pretty reasonable total price to pay to have a Wizard who could often replace a Cleric. It seems likely that anyone with, say, 16 Cha can throw Heal scrolls eventually -- but at what level?

And if I were to ignore UMD and concentrate on being a Wizard, what race should I consider nowadays? WF seem to have lost everything that made them desirable: they're no longer immune to all poisons, diseases and Fortification reduction sounds like it's common these days, too. The Water Breathing was extremely convenient many times, but frankly, the potions and items and spells that provide it are easy enough to come by even if they do take up a slot. Level Drain immunity was very nice, as well, but is that still effective today? High powered Docents were not all that common, but I never really felt like I was screwed because I couldn't wear a Robe -- what about Docents and things nowadays?

I remember my first character was an Elf Wizard who I realized sucked really bad simply because... elves just suck. Can't heal themselves (self Reconstruct is... very nice), don't have the +2 Int/Cha which Drow have, they have the -2 Con on an already-squishy class... I would love nothing more than to find a pure Wizard build which allowed me to UMD scrolls of Heal at a reasonable character level, considering the -2 Con isn't quite as crippling as it was before PRR existed and since Warforged are no longer immune to fleshie-infections either. I mean, if I'm gonna have to start carrying potions of neutralize poison/disease anyway.... And then there's any changes to spells which have happened in the intervening, what, two years. Tell me about your favorite spells and what might be considered "must-haves" and why.

Help me, forums!

You're my only hope! I'm a DDO noob again!

Goals: Wizard build with enough UMD to self-heal if not WF, sturdy enough to not rely on the rest of the group when **** hits the fan (because I end up PUGing a lot since I'm not the most hardcore player, in with all the uber guilds and elitists). Prefer Enchantment and Necromancy schools simply because I feel nuking is a waste of my talents (dealing damage is what the Rogue and Barbarian are for).

[Myrrae]

Your WF wiz/rogue may be just fine, even though WFs don't have quite the advantages they had before.

With Epic Destinies - assuming you have the MOTU expansion - there are several additional ways to up your UMD that aren't quite as painful. Plus each level over 20 is an additional full point of UMD. Leveling you're not likely to get no-fail heal scrolls off. Raise Dead is probably reasonable, especially if you go human and take human versatility for the skill boost. If you make a Green Steel item with +6 to charisma skills that puts you a lot closer as well, but it's a bit of grinding out Shroud for.

WF are still pretty potent - I'm considering a WF Wiz/Rogue AM for my next wiz life even though I don't like their looks much. However, human Pale Masters also have a fair amount to offer as well. Undead gives you many of the same benefits you get from WF - self healing, fortification, immunity to level drain and (I think) underwater breathing. There are tradeoffs though - heal spells won't do anything for you, extra damage from light etc. However they are awesome at necromancy - go figure. (And lich form gives you 2 more int, for another DC to everything, including your enchantments)

If you're not interested in doing epic elite - the new ultra high difficulty - then you can go pure, you can go wiz/rogue, and you can pick either human or WF. You can pick others, but WF Archmage or Human Pale Master are generally the "best" choices.

WF because you can go Archmage and have more flexibility (Super cheap web is a very nice CC for a conjuration Archmage) and keep self healing, Human because you get the extra feat + human versatility + only one int less than Drow with racial enhancements. Elf is another choice for first life doing Epic Elite because of the spell pen, but it doesn't sound like a good choice for what you want.

Favorite spells - note, this is based on my most recent sorc life, so I may be missing some awesome spells:
Finger of Death / Power word Kill / Wail of the Banshee - Instakills are fun.
Symbol of death - not quite as flashy as the 3 above, but still nice, especially when you want to level drain.
Energy Drain - Drop half the hitpoints of an epic mob in one cast? Yes please.
Have not tried Phantasmal Killer - I've heard good things about it, but couldn't fit it on my sorc.
Disco ball (Otto's sphere of dancing) - Even when it's not a huge benefit it's just so damned entertaining.
Web - solid CC that ignores spell resistance and works on things that won't dance.
Niac's & Eledar's DoTs - these are what you bring for boss fights. You don't use them on trash, and they're not really 'nukes' exactly, but when you can't CC and you can't instakill, they've got your back.
Polar Ray - I know you said not nuking but... Really, Polar Ray can be fun!
Ice Storm/ Wall of Fire/ Acid Rain - yay for persistant dots you can kite things through. Couple with expeditious retreat or Haste and watch things die while you run around. Or keep them trapped in a web.
Greater Heroism - you can scroll this, but it comes in handy. After all, if you're a fleshy this is a 'free' +4 to your UMD as well as immunity to fear - like enemy phantasmal killers.
Displacement - because living is good

Of course, as a Pale Master you'll want Death Aura & negative energy burst to heal yourself with. Not needed on a WF.

I'm probably not thinking of some other great spells, but those are what come to mind for me.

Hope this helps at least some!

[Kinerd]

Not that much has really changed since u14.

-I like UMD on my pure wizard, but I'm satisfied with Raise scrolls. I think you would have to spend a lot more than you would like to get to Heal scrolls.

-While WF are no longer literally immune to Poison and Disease, they're still enormously resistant. It's very annoying to have the mummy rot icon pop up, but I seriously don't even bother curing it anymore until we're out of the mummy area. It's not that big a deal. The fort bypass in my eyes makes WF more desirable, because with just the old Heavy Fort item + 25 race you're still immune to lots of sneak attacks. As much as + 100 undead, no, but a significant amount. Level drain is as good as it ever was. One really nice docent is the Stone Heart: a +8 Int item, Toughness, Resistance 6. Nothing amazing, but great for slot consolidation.

-Elves got a new Spell Pen enhancement, which makes them pretty darn good wizards with PM. If you don't like PM, stick with dismissing them though.

-You could go half-elf and take a dilettante for no-fail divine UMD up to Heal, but it doesn't stack up with Reconstruct or Aura & Burst.

[xtchizobr]

*snip!*

Thanks for the response.

My playstyle did tend heavily toward Acid damage (partly because of Web, partly because of Cloudkill, partly because Melf used to be affected by Extend(!), but they've since removed Extend from offensive spells... alas). Yeah, favored combos being Web/Disco with an AoE acid spell of some sort (I seem to remember Cloudkill, Acid Rain and Acid Fog not stacking together?) or Curse with Hold/Charm/Dominate. Secondary AM in Necromancy for Finger, Ray of Enfeeblement and Symbol of Death. Mind Fog, Disco and Web -- yum yum!

I'm unclear, how does Ennervation decrease a target's HP by that much? it's only 2d4 levels, isn't it?

Went with Enchantment for my Wiz/Rog simply because of the changes they put in for Crushing Despair and Hypno along with Mind Fog to keep up in the DC department. Back in those days, nuking wasn't based on Spell Power, so Polar Ray was absolutely worthless since I couldn't get a good Glaciation 8 item for it (and besides... why nuke it for merely half its health when you can Finger it to dead immediately? =P).

Still a big fan of crowd control and debuffs as the "Wizard role" in a party. With two carefully timed levels in Rogue, I found myself using Heal Scrolls around the time I started running Gianthold in the low teens. Don't forget, Greater Heroism...

The reason I'm not a fan of PMs is that their forms are temporary and they can really frustrate the Cleric. I have so many buttons to manage already, so few SP to dedicate toward switching on my short-duration form, just seems too much bother to be worth it. That and ultra-cheap SLAs are pretty painful to give up: why spend the AP buying activated buffs when I can have 95% of the benefit of those buffs up at all times with no hassle and for "free" while being free to choose my school of specialization?

For example, Transmutation with Slow, Disintegrate and Flesh to Stone is extremely extremely attractive: what's immune to Slow and Disintegrate? Flesh to Stone is essentially Hold Monster on steroids. Slow probably can decrease incoming damage as much as Blur if not more, and Disintegrate will one- or two-shot 90% of anything you come up against. Cheap Haste SLA? sign me up!

Specializing in Abjuration or Illusion gives you extreme discounts on some of the best and most important spells in the game: Resist Energy, Blur, Displacement and Protection from Energy? Any one of those could save you hundreds of SP in a single dungeon run, let alone a full raid. Stoneskin is awfully nice, if niche.

With PM, you don't get those SLA options. The save DCs don't seem to be all that much different between AM and PM, just +-1ish.

What I notice most importantly is that using higher level spells to nuke with is actually possible now due to the Spell Power changes. Doesn't really make me want to roll a nuker, just that it's important to remember. Doesn't sound like the core gameplay of PUGing "normal" Hard/Elite 6-mans has changed much at all, though. I still have my Wiz/Rog, just dunno what to do with him since he's run out of content to do that I have access to. ;D Could farm Tor for more scales, though.

[trog_star]

displace is now self only

[Myrrae]

I'm not entirely sure why enervation decreases hit points as it does, I just know that I've seen it
Edit: Oops! Meant Energy Drain, not Enervation. Got the names confused.

As to the AM vs PM debate - you'll see another thread going into great lengths arguing each side that's near the top of this forum right now. It will no doubt more informative than I can be since I've not yet played an AM. I will say that the forms for undead aren't short term though - they last until you remove them or you rest. Playing a sorc I agree that having the cheap SLAs is really nice, although it seems as though most people don't think much of wiz SLAs except for web and maybe hypnotism. However, as a PM you can spam your negative blasts - they cost 0 spell points, and the hit points they cost get healed by your death aura. Great against some things, but death ward becomes highly annoying Again, the other thread can probably address this better than I can though.

As for Polar Ray vs FoD - nothing can save against Polar Ray and there's no spell resistance. So there are times when it's uber, and there are times when FoD is better. I consider it to be situationally awesome

The nice thing about being a wizard is that you have versatility. I'm not saying become a primary nuker, but it's another thing in the tool box. And I think there's an expectation that a wizard will load Niac's & Eledar's for boss fights, and have at least some points in cold & electric. What's immune to flesh to stone? Red names & rock monsters, most everything else you could probably web or Otto's irresistible dance instead.

Right now Conjuration is extremely useful for a focus, mostly because of cheap heightened webs. (Although it has other perks as well). Necromancy is also useful just for the bonus to your DCs for instakills etc. Enchantment is solid. Evocation isn't bad for nuking. Transmutation... you could, but I think both enchantment and conjuration bring more to the table in terms of CC. At higher levels then Spell Pen becomes more important as you run into more Drow & devils. One of the great things about Conjuration is that most (all?) of the spells ignore SR.

Also, your wiz/rogue should have access to some level 16 quests that are the prelude to the expansion btw, I believe they're ftp and new.

[Kinerd]

Still a big fan of crowd control and debuffs as the "Wizard role" in a party. With two carefully timed levels in Rogue, I found myself using Heal Scrolls around the time I started running Gianthold in the low teens. Don't forget, Greater Heroism...

Arcanes are unique in that they range from "very good" to "excellent" in every role but healing (poor) and tanking (average): cc, instant kill, and dps. If you ever find you're limiting yourself from those roles, you're probably not on a good path.

The reason I'm not a fan of PMs is that their forms are temporary and they can really frustrate the Cleric. I have so many buttons to manage already, so few SP to dedicate toward switching on my short-duration form, just seems too much bother to be worth it.

Forms have no duration. You do have to turn them on once per shrine, but other than that they last indefinitely. What really alleviates frustration for a healer is self-sufficient party members, and every wizard is capable of being 100% self-sufficient (at least past level 12).

That and ultra-cheap SLAs are pretty painful to give up: why spend the AP buying activated buffs when I can have 95% of the benefit of those buffs up at all times with no hassle and for "free" while being free to choose my school of specialization?

For example, Transmutation with Slow, Disintegrate and Flesh to Stone is extremely extremely attractive: what's immune to Slow and Disintegrate? Flesh to Stone is essentially Hold Monster on steroids. Slow probably can decrease incoming damage as much as Blur if not more, and Disintegrate will one- or two-shot 90% of anything you come up against. Cheap Haste SLA? sign me up!

Specializing in Abjuration or Illusion gives you extreme discounts on some of the best and most important spells in the game: Resist Energy, Blur, Displacement and Protection from Energy? Any one of those could save you hundreds of SP in a single dungeon run, let alone a full raid. Stoneskin is awfully nice, if niche.

Unfortunately these are very poor SLA options. The SP you save is largely eaten up (if not overwhelmed entirely) by the SP it costs to purchase them, and more importantly the opportunity costs in not getting SLA Web and in getting DCs in otherwise useless schools are severe. Let's look in detail at Transmutation...

SLA 1: Jump - 1 SP cast, costs 25 SP. You cast Jump once per shrine, base cost is 10, no metamagics, so you're 16 SP in the hole.
SLA 2: Knock - 3 SP cast, costs 50 SP. We'll be generous and say you cast Knock once per shrine, base cost is 15, you're another 38 SP in the hole (total 64).
SLA 3: Haste - 6 SP cast, costs 75 SP. We'll leave alone how often you cast it per shrine for now, base cost is 20.
SLA 4: Stone to Flesh - 10 SP cast, costs 100 SP. I have never cast this spell. 164 SP in the hole.
SLA 5: Flesh to Stone - 15 SP cast, costs 125 SP. Base cost is 35, Heightened to 50 or 47 with Capstone.

Your costs before we count the Haste and FtS savings are 364 SP. You save 14 per cast of Haste and 32 per cast of FtS. Even if you cast Haste 10 times per shrine and FtS 5 times, you're still in the hole to the tune of 64 SP.

Abjuration and Illusion are really even worse. You can only get a potentially useful buff by burning a Spell Mastery on them, and the DC-based spells in each school are outclassed by Necromancy. This is exacerbated by Resist Energy and Blur not being that useful as spells anymore: guild ships have 30 resist, and some version of Blur is on every item this side of the Mississippi (to use a bit of technical jargon).

The math just doesn't work for any SLA besides Web and maybe Hypno. It doesn't have to be this way, there's plenty of ways it could be tinkered with to make untraditional schools at least a little more appealing, but I doubt very much we're going to see any motion until The Enhancement Pass, whenever that finally happens.

.

With all that said, it's not like your character is going to be a complete gimp if you roll an Illusion/Abjuration archmage, because as stated earlier arcanes are extremely powerful. It's just that you're hamstringing yourself by doing so.

[xtchizobr]

Arcanes are unique in that they range from "very good" to "excellent" in every role but healing (poor) and tanking (average): cc, instant kill, and dps. If you ever find you're limiting yourself from those roles, you're probably not on a good path.

I can do you some better: as a Wiz/Rog, I add traps and off-healing to my toolkit. I long ago decided to make a stand against the "damage is the only thing worth doing in DDO" problem. Consider it a personal statement against the trend of dungeon design we've seen where killing absolutely everything in the way to the boss (which you have to kill) is the only way to get the most (or, indeed, anything at all) out of a given quest.

To that end, especially since Sorcs simply do nuking better, I refuse to concentrate on dealing damage. That's what Rogues, Barbarians and Monks are for. They aren't limited by Blue Bars, either. My Blue Bar has to go toward a lot of things, and damage is by far the least valuable function I can put it toward. I allocated a reasonable amount of AP and gear toward being able to deal decent damage when I absolutely must, but my gameplay decisions very much revolve around finessing combat to relieve healing burden and ensure success rather than the sub-goal of watching big orange numbers.

Forms have no duration. You do have to turn them on once per shrine, but other than that they last indefinitely. What really alleviates frustration for a healer is self-sufficient party members, and every wizard is capable of being 100% self-sufficient (at least past level 12).

Again, my Wiz/Rog is such a favorite because of his supreme self-sufficiency. I crafted him at a time before Prestige Enhancements really existed. UMD was the only way for a fleshy Wizard to be able to self-heal sans pots, and since it's not a class skill (and this isn't Pathfinder rules, alas!!), a Wizard would be well-advised to splash Rogue to pick it up if he couldn't throw hundreds of thousands of plat (and countless hours farming) at the problem.

I decided if I was going to splash Rogue, giving up some caster level for Evasion, trapping and UMD, that I may as well go whole hog and be very good at it. Warforged at the time worked a little differently and I'm still extremely pleased with how the character performed for what I most-commonly did. I've never been interested in the most high-end of raid content. I don't give a god **** about theoretical min-maxing for performance in those environments. I couldn't care less about whether I'll be "good enough to qualify for an invite into those groups", I want to be able to enjoy the content, not farm it. The necessity of farming, even for a little bit, is outrageous.

What I want to do is usually Hard mode with a small group of people who aren't flakes and idiots. I don't care about what is "required" to do epics and raids at end game. I don't care. I just don't care.

For some reason, I thought the forms used to have like a ten-minute duration or something... Can the forms be dispelled?

Unfortunately these are very poor SLA options. The SP you save is largely eaten up (if not overwhelmed entirely) by the SP it costs to purchase them, and more importantly the opportunity costs in not getting SLA Web and in getting DCs in otherwise useless schools are severe. Let's look in detail at Transmutation...

SLA 1: Jump - 1 SP cast, costs 25 SP. You cast Jump once per shrine, base cost is 10, no metamagics, so you're 16 SP in the hole.
SLA 2: Knock - 3 SP cast, costs 50 SP. We'll be generous and say you cast Knock once per shrine, base cost is 15, you're another 38 SP in the hole (total 64).
SLA 3: Haste - 6 SP cast, costs 75 SP. We'll leave alone how often you cast it per shrine for now, base cost is 20.
SLA 4: Stone to Flesh - 10 SP cast, costs 100 SP. I have never cast this spell. 164 SP in the hole.
SLA 5: Flesh to Stone - 15 SP cast, costs 125 SP. Base cost is 35, Heightened to 50 or 47 with Capstone.

Your costs before we count the Haste and FtS savings are 364 SP. You save 14 per cast of Haste and 32 per cast of FtS. Even if you cast Haste 10 times per shrine and FtS 5 times, you're still in the hole to the tune of 64 SP.

One tends to cast Haste much more often than 10 times per shrine, and FtS far far more often than 5 times if one will be using it as a primary means of CC in the first place. What if you need to cast Jump on everyone in the group (quite likely for some quests, like, say, Necropolis part 3 I believe)? Knock and Stone to Flesh are simply "taxes". Sure, it's just stupid and ****** design by Turbine to put taxes in there like that, but the Haste SLA alone would be well worth the tax of Jump and Knock -- especially since, at the cheaper cost, you could afford to drop Extend and take a different feat instead. Essentially trading AP for a Feat.

Abjuration and Illusion are really even worse. You can only get a potentially useful buff by burning a Spell Mastery on them, and the DC-based spells in each school are outclassed by Necromancy. This is exacerbated by Resist Energy and Blur not being that useful as spells anymore: guild ships have 30 resist, and some version of Blur is on every item this side of the Mississippi (to use a bit of technical jargon).

Not under level 15.

Blur and Resist Energy are the gods of low levels, and an AM can get them during levels when they still matter and when a huge portion of your SP goes toward maintaining those buffs on the party. Back when AM came out, Blur and Resist Energy (along with Heroism) were, in fact, the reason a Wizard got a party invite at all, let alone Bards. Displacement, even with its short duration, is still the only serious self-protection buff that Wizards can rely on for the vast majority of incoming damage.

Just because they don't remain extremely important at level 20 doesn't mean that there can't be a use for those SLAs. Banishment is like a Finger of Death, but works on creatures that you can't Finger, so there's still that...

The math just doesn't work for any SLA besides Web and maybe Hypno. It doesn't have to be this way, there's plenty of ways it could be tinkered with to make untraditional schools at least a little more appealing, but I doubt very much we're going to see any motion until The Enhancement Pass, whenever that finally happens. With all that said, it's not like your character is going to be a complete gimp if you roll an Illusion/Abjuration archmage, because as stated earlier arcanes are extremely powerful. It's just that you're hamstringing yourself by doing so.

The "math" you amateurishly used doesn't take into account a great many "variables". Just because a lot of loudmouths and snobs screech about Web and Hypno being the end-all-be-all doesn't mean that they're correct or that you can't do what you want. Why would you let someone else tell you how to play? I spend more SP on Blur and Resist Energy than any other spell but Haste, and my healers are constantly commenting gratefully about it. I think you might want to "run some numbers" again.

Straw Man fallacy. Go look it up. Then read what I actually posted and realize that I was not declaring Illusion and Abjuration to be the ultimate specializations, I was simply noting that there was interesting design space there which could/should be paid attention to. Hopefully we'll see less useless options implemented as taxes under those schools if/when the Enhancement Pass occurs, yes.

Don't dare to tell me I'll be "gimp". You'd be immediately entered on my list of "******** to never group with", and you would earn your position on the top.

[Kinerd]

I can do you some better: as a Wiz/Rog, I add traps and off-healing to my toolkit. I long ago decided to make a stand against the "damage is the only thing worth doing in DDO" problem. Consider it a personal statement against the trend of dungeon design we've seen where killing absolutely everything in the way to the boss (which you have to kill) is the only way to get the most (or, indeed, anything at all) out of a given quest.

To that end, especially since Sorcs simply do nuking better, I refuse to concentrate on dealing damage. That's what Rogues, Barbarians and Monks are for. They aren't limited by Blue Bars, either. My Blue Bar has to go toward a lot of things, and damage is by far the least valuable function I can put it toward. I allocated a reasonable amount of AP and gear toward being able to deal decent damage when I absolutely must, but my gameplay decisions very much revolve around finessing combat to relieve healing burden and ensure success rather than the sub-goal of watching big orange numbers.

With respect, this seems like cutting off your nose, ears, and tongue to spite your face. The #1 way you can relieve healing burden is to kill everything or failing that at least have all the aggro, because you can CC and self-heal with the best. This also accomplishes the larger goal of superior party performance: a cleric who doesn't have to heal the barbs can contribute damage or kills, however meager.

For some reason, I thought the forms used to have like a ten-minute duration or something... Can the forms be dispelled?

There have been bugs now and again where forms won't turn on, won't stay on, will turn on with inexplicable visual bugs claiming durations, etc., but when working properly (as they usually are) they last until rest, no dispel.

One tends to cast Haste much more often than 10 times per shrine, and FtS far far more often than 5 times if one will be using it as a primary means of CC in the first place. What if you need to cast Jump on everyone in the group (quite likely for some quests, like, say, Necropolis part 3 I believe)? Knock and Stone to Flesh are simply "taxes". Sure, it's just stupid and ****** design by Turbine to put taxes in there like that, but the Haste SLA alone would be well worth the tax of Jump and Knock -- especially since, at the cheaper cost, you could afford to drop Extend and take a different feat instead. Essentially trading AP for a Feat.

Why would you be primarily using a single target CC, though? I go a long ways without using any single target CC on my Webber AM. I also feel my 10x estimate is if anything pretty generous, that's 20 minutes between shrines without Extend (which I already don't take) we're talking about.

And the larger point, as mentioned, is the opportunity cost in getting +Not Necromancy DC and SLA Not Web.

Not under level 15.

Blur and Resist Energy are the gods of low levels, and an AM can get them during levels when they still matter and when a huge portion of your SP goes toward maintaining those buffs on the party. Back when AM came out, Blur and Resist Energy (along with Heroism) were, in fact, the reason a Wizard got a party invite at all, let alone Bards. Displacement, even with its short duration, is still the only serious self-protection buff that Wizards can rely on for the vast majority of incoming damage.

Just because they don't remain extremely important at level 20 doesn't mean that there can't be a use for those SLAs. Banishment is like a Finger of Death, but works on creatures that you can't Finger, so there's still that...

Let's say for the sake of argument that your points are correct under level 15. Are you going to do three feat swaps to get into useful schools post-15? Or LR? Seems a pretty steep long term cost for a pretty minor short term benefit, no?

As a side note, which creatures did you have in mind that can be Banished but not Necroed?

The "math" you amateurishly used doesn't take into account a great many "variables". Just because a lot of loudmouths and snobs screech about Web and Hypno being the end-all-be-all doesn't mean that they're correct or that you can't do what you want. Why would you let someone else tell you how to play? I spend more SP on Blur and Resist Energy than any other spell but Haste, and my healers are constantly commenting gratefully about it. I think you might want to "run some numbers" again.

It could be that I'm just following the bandwagon, but it could also be that I'm actually right; that the option I support is just better, and it's just a reasonably foreseeable coincidence that so many other people also support it.

Straw Man fallacy. Go look it up. Then read what I actually posted and realize that I was not declaring Illusion and Abjuration to be the ultimate specializations, I was simply noting that there was interesting design space there which could/should be paid attention to. Hopefully we'll see less useless options implemented as taxes under those schools if/when the Enhancement Pass occurs, yes.

I didn't say you did, so perhaps I should be asking you to look up the straw man. I said they were "worse" than "very poor" and gave reasons for that description. You disagree. Okay.

Don't dare to tell me I'll be "gimp". You'd be immediately entered on my list of "******** to never group with", and you would earn your position on the top.

That doesn't strike you as a little bit of an overreaction?

[voodoogroves]

I'd also suggest that an 18/2 split isn't giving up as much now as it did before. EDs can make caster level / DC / etc. differences far less impactful.

[xtchizobr]

I'd also suggest that an 18/2 split isn't giving up as much now as it did before. EDs can make caster level / DC / etc. differences far less impactful.

Having only returned to poking around in DDO recently, I don't actually know much about epic levels and all this newfangled stuff.

I'm still not clear on whether those five epic levels actually count toward your class. I.e., can you get the Wizard Capstone with a Rogue splash at, say, level 22? Even so, I'm inclined to agree with you. Evasion is simply outrageously useful with Insightful Reflexes. I've functioned as the raid's only trapmonkey before (go figure, couldn't find anyone else on the server to do it, so there I go, hopping through walls of lightning twice both ways... Helps to have Protection from Elements for that odd botched roll, though). The nukes I have survived simply because of Evasion while the Sorcerer who was making fun of me the whole way up to the Dairy Queen went down like his mama on prom night. All his SP and nuking power didn't save him from costing the healer a couple rezes and he spent the rest of the fight Level Drained down below my own caster level...

But the true allure of that Rogue splash is that I've never had to sit around waiting to find someone with Rogue levels who could do the traps. I swear to god, some times seems like they're rarer than Clerics, though who knows why because at least Rogues can be useful -- 'miright or 'miright?!

From what I can gather, the five epic levels are "no-class", that is, you take "class levels" in the "Epic" class. Apparently it just serves to bump up that little number which represents your total character levels, and these epic levels count as "able to cast whatever spells you can" for the purposes of scaling spell effects. I still don't really know about Enhancements, though: do you stop gaining Action Points at level 20, or are all the AP you gain from then on counted as this newfangled "Epic Destiny" stuff?

... Because I'll be damned if I don't still really envy that Wizard capstone.

[Inouk]

Okay, a few things you should know that have changed at least some:

1) Epic Destinies are uber.... a 25 toon with full EDs makes an old 20 capped toon look and feel like he's 10th level again. I'm not saying you need to be that or be aiming for that, or feel inferior for that, just trying to give you some sense of the scope of change. Because EDs are not class specific, but are a bit class designed this also allows you some more customization and almost cross-class ability building, allowing some powerful area nukes on a wizard, or strong DC buffs to a sorc, etc. I'll let you research that yourself.

2) PUG groups are harder to come by. You'll see many threads moaning about this and many theories why. My personal theory is a combination of factors ranging from a) more contect for same # of players b) more level ranges for same # of players c) small dropoff of player base due to the inevitable % of people that dislike changes d) the existing player base becoming more and more veteran with established guilds/friend groups that they run with regularly. Regardless of why, the reality is more and more people are running small non-PUG groups, so being self-reliant isn't a bad idea and planning on being able to solo effectively is a good idea too, if that's something you don't mind doing

Kinerd actually made some very good observations about the AM SLAs, most of them you will not get your SP back on, only a select few are worth the SP you lose and getting the tier 4 or 5 usually involves the "tax" you mentioned of ones you get nothing from and that usually makes the better ones not worth it also (just my opinion). On this note.... more and more characters don't need or care about amny buffs now. As a caster I use to pass a TON of buffs. Now I pass GH to anyone I think might need it and haste/rage with an announcement of "if anyone wants any buffs just ask, I'll be ahppy to pass", but very few people have requests. I tihnk you'll find being a dedicated buffer far less rewarding that it was. My ranger made level 4 wind bracers, so he's had perma-blur since level 4 *shrug*, and this is not unusual.

Some on the forums insist a WF AM force specced is the be-all-end-all damage dealer in Shiradi Epic Destiny. I find it hard to believe myself, and that's a nuker spec, so probably not for you anyway. I have a WF AM, and a Drow PM that was sorc last life. From my experience I can tell you that I feel far more effective, versatile, and indestructible as my PM, but your experience and style may vary. I just love having the built in 100% fort, the +4 con, +2 int, the passive heal-over time makes me feel far safer than reactive healing that takes time away from other casts I would rather do. My PM can nuke (not nearly as well as sorc life for sure), but is a walking god with Wail, Circle of Death, FoD. I find you don't have to CC what you can kill instantly, but my CC at level 20 PM was as high as my echantment spec AM, so really no drawback. I chose to go pure (was tough call) for the higher DC's since a necro is mostly all or nothing, and the nothing part sucks. I also skipped UMD as I just really don't need it, but if you wanted it for healing the party it's very viable with all the skill points you get with small investment in equipment and build pts.

That's just my input, but of course play what you'll enjoy =)

[xtchizobr]

Okay, a few things you should know that have changed at least some:

1) Epic Destinies are uber.... a 25 toon with full EDs makes an old 20 capped toon look and feel like he's 10th level again. I'm not saying you need to be that or be aiming for that, or feel inferior for that, just trying to give you some sense of the scope of change. Because EDs are not class specific, but are a bit class designed this also allows you some more customization and almost cross-class ability building, allowing some powerful area nukes on a wizard, or strong DC buffs to a sorc, etc. I'll let you research that yourself.

2) PUG groups are harder to come by. You'll see many threads moaning about this and many theories why. My personal theory is a combination of factors ranging from a) more contect for same # of players b) more level ranges for same # of players c) small dropoff of player base due to the inevitable % of people that dislike changes d) the existing player base becoming more and more veteran with established guilds/friend groups that they run with regularly. Regardless of why, the reality is more and more people are running small non-PUG groups, so being self-reliant isn't a bad idea and planning on being able to solo effectively is a good idea too, if that's something you don't mind doing

Kinerd actually made some very good observations about the AM SLAs, most of them you will not get your SP back on, only a select few are worth the SP you lose and getting the tier 4 or 5 usually involves the "tax" you mentioned of ones you get nothing from and that usually makes the better ones not worth it also (just my opinion). On this note.... more and more characters don't need or care about amny buffs now. As a caster I use to pass a TON of buffs. Now I pass GH to anyone I think might need it and haste/rage with an announcement of "if anyone wants any buffs just ask, I'll be ahppy to pass", but very few people have requests. I tihnk you'll find being a dedicated buffer far less rewarding that it was. My ranger made level 4 wind bracers, so he's had perma-blur since level 4 *shrug*, and this is not unusual.

Some on the forums insist a WF AM force specced is the be-all-end-all damage dealer in Shiradi Epic Destiny. I find it hard to believe myself, and that's a nuker spec, so probably not for you anyway. I have a WF AM, and a Drow PM that was sorc last life. From my experience I can tell you that I feel far more effective, versatile, and indestructible as my PM, but your experience and style may vary. I just love having the built in 100% fort, the +4 con, +2 int, the passive heal-over time makes me feel far safer than reactive healing that takes time away from other casts I would rather do. My PM can nuke (not nearly as well as sorc life for sure), but is a walking god with Wail, Circle of Death, FoD. I find you don't have to CC what you can kill instantly, but my CC at level 20 PM was as high as my echantment spec AM, so really no drawback. I chose to go pure (was tough call) for the higher DC's since a necro is mostly all or nothing, and the nothing part sucks. I also skipped UMD as I just really don't need it, but if you wanted it for healing the party it's very viable with all the skill points you get with small investment in equipment and build pts.

That's just my input, but of course play what you'll enjoy =)

Yeah, I've been hearing that blanket immunities aren't nearly as common anymore.

Crafting seems like such a chore, a grind now available to all characters rather than the tedium of greensteel / etc. which was for "end gamers". Pretty sure I strongly disapprove of this design direction. It just seems to make class distinctions so arbitrary when a clicky or minor customized item can replace anyone you might have grouped with (I suspect that PUGing is rarer now simply because it is so optional to have a group around).

Self-sufficiency has always been so enjoyable, still having fun casually soloing things, so who knows if the teens has changed so much that I can't do that **** on my own still.

I think I'm finding that I'm simply disgruntled about a great many SNAFUs which plague the game. Archmages being so relatively worthless, Rogues being outclassed entirely by Arties, Clerics still sucking (and being bitter about it ;D), no valid spells except for nukes (remember when buffs were important or useful or fun?)...

Just that gameplay has seemed to devolve. I mean, DDO has never been an overly complex combat game, but it's seriously glaring at this point, how stupidly simplified combat is, how meaningless 90% of your choices are. Partly dungeon design, partly class design, partly gear design -- just game design in general. DDO seems so flavorless, so boring and unrewarding now. Maybe it's nostalgia, but I don't remember it always being this way.

It used to have more of a "Baldur's Gate" -esque feel, you know? Now it's laser guns and vanity pets mixed with Diablo's awful itemization. I think the comparison to Diablo was painfully apt.

Not everyone's concept of D&D is the same, but I'm pretty sure DDO doesn't resemble the game that it should. More Neverwinter Nights and less Torchlight would be for the best, I say.

Game is old, though. Time to put it out of its misery, I guess.

[Inouk]

Yeah, I've been hearing that blanket immunities aren't nearly as common anymore.

Crafting seems like such a chore, a grind now available to all characters rather than the tedium of greensteel / etc. which was for "end gamers". Pretty sure I strongly disapprove of this design direction. It just seems to make class distinctions so arbitrary when a clicky or minor customized item can replace anyone you might have grouped with (I suspect that PUGing is rarer now simply because it is so optional to have a group around).

Self-sufficiency has always been so enjoyable, still having fun casually soloing things, so who knows if the teens has changed so much that I can't do that **** on my own still.

I think I'm finding that I'm simply disgruntled about a great many SNAFUs which plague the game. Archmages being so relatively worthless, Rogues being outclassed entirely by Arties, Clerics still sucking (and being bitter about it ;D), no valid spells except for nukes (remember when buffs were important or useful or fun?)...

Just that gameplay has seemed to devolve. I mean, DDO has never been an overly complex combat game, but it's seriously glaring at this point, how stupidly simplified combat is, how meaningless 90% of your choices are. Partly dungeon design, partly class design, partly gear design -- just game design in general. DDO seems so flavorless, so boring and unrewarding now. Maybe it's nostalgia, but I don't remember it always being this way.

It used to have more of a "Baldur's Gate" -esque feel, you know? Now it's laser guns and vanity pets mixed with Diablo's awful itemization. I think the comparison to Diablo was painfully apt.

Not everyone's concept of D&D is the same, but I'm pretty sure DDO doesn't resemble the game that it should. More Neverwinter Nights and less Torchlight would be for the best, I say.

Game is old, though. Time to put it out of its misery, I guess.

I can certainly appreciate your sentiment, but I for one am having as much fun as ever right now. I do wish they would take away some of the grind aspects, but I think those are designed intentionally to drag things out, to keep players chasing, keep them interested. The idea being if players can quickly complete all their goals they will feel like there is nothing left to do and move one to something else. Since it's not realistic for them to add new content every week, and if they did it would stretch the player base so thin you couldn't find groups anyway, I forgive them this aspect and almost even embrace it.