So we defeat a god...and THF's get rewards that stink

[Indoran]

Don't people realize SoS is also subject to situational variables? like fortification? like DR?

That for lots of situations something like a epic Antique Greataxe is better...

That the new spear con be better too on some situations.

Ddo is kind of rock, papers, scissors... go out there do some math for your toon in specific and decide what to do...

[JOTMON]

Problem I see with most of this new stuff is it still pidgeon-holes.

I would much rather see a FR evolution of Shroud crafting with all the new effects and variations.
LOB was close but there just wasnt enough versatility to really make it viable, no shield crafting (big letdown), and what maybe 100 permutations at most. What should have been a good start to crafting beyond shroud fizzled and died.

Shroud must have a 100,000 permutations. Gear,weapons, any and all are usefull to some degree on the right toon.

How many players play through this game and have at least or intend to have at least 4 different crafted shroud items if not more. And these items are still viable through endgame.

I have yet to find any item that easily replaces HP and SP items from shroud, or even the clickies..

Shroud gear is still king of the hill(primarially due to its versatility and unique perks).

If someone wants to build a viable ranger using 2wf light maces...oh wait..there are no good in game light maces, why are you not a fighter/barbarian using an eSOS.

Craft Epic Drow weapons, and those Corymerian garbage items that people throw away or turn in for ingredients be craftible into equivilent of epic shroud items/eSOS equivilent versions in hammers or Daxes, qstaves, etc...

I want to see a million permutations of crafting items, similar to shroud but epic oriented...build to suit what I want to have on my toon to fill in any discepancies I feel would benefit me. It shouldnt be easy, but it should be accessible.... Perma haste crafted item, Curse immunity clickies, displacement guard, mana regen clickies, PRR craftible robes/outfits, Shield crafting...Use current epic items as ingredients to encourage running pre-exisiting raids...

Also, I have taken tales of valor more times than I can count in CITW runs... really!? 150 favor after a 3 hour epic elite CITW run which was also my 20th and on the end reward list.. Tales of Valor is my best choice..., I get better time invested guild renown farming Korthos. Guild renown should scale with level/quest difficulty.. I should be seeing 50k guild renown bounites for running Epic raids if you are not giving me a usefull unbound +4 tome.

[Munkenmo]

I would much rather see a FR evolution of Shroud crafting with all the new effects and variations.
LOB was close but there just wasnt enough versatility to really make it viable, no shield crafting (big letdown)

see Alchemical tower shield

or Alchemical heavy shield

or Alcheimical light shield

[Missing_Minds]

Why are there no greatswords or khopeshes in this expansion?

Obviously I'm not a developer so I can't answer the question. I can only guess.

How thematic would be greatswords or khopeshes for drow? I don't think so. I can say the same for handwraps honestly. What happened there? too much complaining so they caved in.

While I've not read the set of War of the Spider Queen, nor the latest Drizzt books, I'm pretty certain that great axe would be rather uncommon. (But there was the one weapon master of House Braene that used a combo of net and trident.) So maybe great axes aren't too far fetched nor by the same logic falchions and great swords.

But FR drow handwraps? Have there actually been monasteries created down there now? True I know nothing of Ched Nez (sp) so maybe. Given my limited knowledge I would have thought adding something the equivalent to Whirling Steel Strike to the long sword and short sword would have been done to keep the weapon theme appropriate while letting monks have something if they so chose. (I know, there would still be a LOT of complaining on the forums.)

I also would have thought there would have been more than just a singular staff for casters. I mean, of the 3 houses we were dealing with, the themes of slavery (enchantments), nemocracy, and military tacticians were prevalent. The latter obviously represented from the shere amount of weapons. But very little in the form of the first two.

Do linking the weapons (if you can EVER get freaking commendations) for set bonus make up for this lack? At a glance I don't think so. But there are loot junkies that have more than likely already crunched those numbers.

[Dolphious]

Whats obnoxious, is when a reader completely disregards what the OP is about, just to put in his irrelevant 2 cents in.

Please point me to the part where I said that 2WF was better. You can't, because I didn't say that. What I did say however, was that 2WF WEAPONS are much more competitive with older generation one handers. The rapier is a good example. I don't think the 2WF style is superior at all, in fact it has been hurt a bit. This isn't a thread concerning weapon style, but rather the competitiveness of the weapons themselves. Get it right before you bash this thread with your incorrect blanket statements.

Fair enough, but my point is that there's no need to make this about "other people are getting nice new stuff, so why can't I?" which was most definitely the tenor of the OP. It makes what is basically a reasonable request sound petty.

[Chai]

I complained that greatswords were not even given a SHOT in the raid, not that we don't have a better one than esos. I complained that the falchion is worse than one included in desert content years ago. I complained that the greataxe is a joke.

This isn't entirely about the esos, but rather the THF weapon spectrum, so stop it.

The issue biggest issue with the "THF weapon spectrum" is its not a spectrum at all. For the longest time, the one weapon to rule them all was the eSOS, and the players as well as Turbine have used it as the measuring stick for how to balance content for years now. Turbine has been willing to create weapons that come closer to its damage in both TWF -and- THF but they havent allowed anything into the game as of yet that surpasses it. So while you may not intend for the thread to be about the one weapon, the one weapon is the biggest roadblock to getting what you want here, and needs to be discussed.

That being said, I think they need to do a few things about that.

Give us other 2 handers that do roughly the same DPS but in other ways. A two handed piercer with a x4 crit 19-20 for instance. Breach should be x3. The greatsword in gianthold when made epic needs to not be some average turd compared to a 3 year old weapon as well.

[Cetus]

Obviously I'm not a developer so I can't answer the question. I can only guess.

How thematic would be greatswords or khopeshes for drow? I don't think so. I can say the same for handwraps honestly. What happened there? too much complaining so they caved in.

While I've not read the set of War of the Spider Queen, nor the latest Drizzt books, I'm pretty certain that great axe would be rather uncommon. (But there was the one weapon master of House Braene that used a combo of net and trident.) So maybe great axes aren't too far fetched nor by the same logic falchions and great swords.

But FR drow handwraps? Have there actually been monasteries created down there now? True I know nothing of Ched Nez (sp) so maybe. Given my limited knowledge I would have thought adding something the equivalent to Whirling Steel Strike to the long sword and short sword would have been done to keep the weapon theme appropriate while letting monks have something if they so chose. (I know, there would still be a LOT of complaining on the forums.)

I also would have thought there would have been more than just a singular staff for casters. I mean, of the 3 houses we were dealing with, the themes of slavery (enchantments), nemocracy, and military tacticians were prevalent. The latter obviously represented from the shere amount of weapons. But very little in the form of the first two.

Do linking the weapons (if you can EVER get freaking commendations) for set bonus make up for this lack? At a glance I don't think so. But there are loot junkies that have more than likely already crunched those numbers.

The problem with lore is that it explains why a subset of the population cannot have the same bang for their buck that another subset has received. Lore arguments are never an avenue that one should take to justify the lack of fun a population has.

How thematic is a drow maul then? Aren't the folks we fight in there BLADEmasters? I don't see drow falchions either...yet one drops in the raid.

I see a drow khopesh...yet one doesn't drop in the raid.

I see greatswords in neither case.

This, to me, seems entirely arbitrary.

[Cetus]

The issue biggest issue with the "THF weapon spectrum" is its not a spectrum at all. For the longest time, the one weapon to rule them all was the eSOS, and the players as well as Turbine have used it as the measuring stick for how to balance content for years now. Turbine has been willing to create weapons that come closer to its damage in both TWF -and- THF but they havent allowed anything into the game as of yet that surpasses it. So while you may not intend for the thread to be about the one weapon, the one weapon is the biggest roadblock to getting what you want here, and needs to be discussed.

That being said, I think they need to do a few things about that.

Give us other 2 handers that do roughly the same DPS but in other ways. A two handed piercer with a x4 crit 19-20 for instance. Breach should be x3. The greatsword in gianthold when made epic needs to not be some average turd compared to a 3 year old weapon as well.

Its a spectrum in the sense that we can survey the inclusion of each of the different THF weapons in the raid, regardless if they are competitive or not. Obviously it all returns to the Esos, but I also used the epic xuum as a reference point, as that weapon would actually do just as good if not better than the esos in some of this FR content that takes fire damage.

The drow greataxe is not a bad alternative either, because of the utility provided with anvil of thunder in dreadnaught (its a second stun ability). I used it for some time to switch things up a bit.

The earthcarver, like I said earlier, would be a good greatsword inclusion that doesn't overtake the esos. Its NOT better, and I wouldn't use it entirely over the esos. But, I wouldn't complain if we can at least have THAT, since at least we'd have something newer that has situational use, thats all.

Especially since the developers burned themselves for making kensei a PrE that forces the player to specialize in a specific weapon, and then not deliver newer variants. That immediately ****es off a subset of the playerbase right from the start.

[Missing_Minds]

The problem with lore is that it explains why a subset of the population cannot have the same bang for their buck that another subset has received. Lore arguments are never an avenue that one should take to justify the lack of fun a population has.

This, to me, seems entirely arbitrary.

And it is. I agree with you in so far that in a video game, neither theme nor "fun" should provide an over riding portion. This is probably why we have the drow weapons you pointed out.

If anything there is a dire lack of caster gear and has been for some time. And looking at U16 probalby still a solid lack of caster gear.

I don't envy any creators of gear that do the juggling game of guessing what tens of thousands of items players want with thematic items that would be appropriate.

[Cetus]

And it is. I agree with you in so far that in a video game, neither theme nor "fun" should provide an over riding portion. This is probably why we have the drow weapons you pointed out.

If anything there is a dire lack of caster gear and has been for some time. And looking at U16 probalby still a solid lack of caster gear.

I don't envy any creators of gear that do the juggling game of guessing what tens of thousands of items players want with thematic items that would be appropriate.

I agree that casters got shafted with gear in this expansion, a lackluster quarterstaff is all that emerged. But, I just find it incredibly goddamn disappointing that this expansion gave us no alternative for the esos, no reason to specialize in an alternate two hander, such as falchions or greataxes, and no explanation as to why.

Perhaps my expectations were too high, but I never would've guessed that the devs had the audacity to completely exclude 2 of the most popular weapons in this expansion.

I agree that the developers dug themselves their own grave with the creation of the esos, but its existance should not absolve them of their responsibility to update our options three years later.

[grayham]

Will the promised improved droprates of heroic comms in U16 and all the proposed upgrades to Cleaver or other weapons make any difference, or is that small fry?

[Missing_Minds]

I agree that the developers dug themselves their own grave with the creation of the esos, but its existance should not absolve them of their responsibility to update our options three years later.

When you set the bar that can screw the curve of the game so much, what do you do?

It is a no win situation, honestly.

[Cetus]

Will the promised improved droprates of heroic comms in U16 and all the proposed upgrades to Cleaver or other weapons make any difference, or is that small fry?

Its insulting. 15 commendations, even with higher drop rates, to upgrade a single weapon .5w? Its offensive that they actually think this is an upgrade, we're not that stupid to accept this warmly and say thank you.

[letour]

creating new content = more powerfull loot

create more powerfull loot= content to easy.

Poeple will complain about that so the dev

more difficult content = old loot not being optimal so no longer use = old content dropping those equipement no longer play

So this an ever ending cycle to always run on the gear. One more powerfull loot will always be in the next expension and made the old content left behind.

What if we got more option. not necessarly more powerfull than the old but only different. The expension give some option like:

◦ Breach, The Dividing Blade - +7 Falchion: 2.5[2d6], 18-20/x2, Shrieking, Disintegration, Shatter +10, Doublestrike 6%
Cleaver, Hewer of Suffering - +7 Greataxe: 2.50[2d8] 20/x3, Hemorrhaging, Limb Chopper, Improved Cursespewing, Doublestrike 6%
Drow X of the Weapon Master - +6 Weapons with a +1 Expanded critical threat, Triple base weapon damage (3W), Maiming and One Random Tactics Bonus (Exceptional Combat Mastery +5, Shatter +10, Stunning +10, Vertigo +10 or Tendon Slice +10)

Sireth, Spear of the Sky - +7 Quarterstaff: 2.5[1d10], Double Expanded Threat: 18-20/x2 and Slashing/Piercing damage - not bludgeoning, Supreme Good, Lightning Strike, Cloudburst, Freedom of Movement, Feather Falling

Stout Oak Walking Stick - Quarterstaff: 2[2d6]+6, Increased Multiplier: 19-20/x3 (including Impact), Aligned, Fracturing, Felling the Oak, Immunity to Slippery Surfaces [ML:20]

Exension give 2 handed weapon even if they are not the best. Let's not turn DDO like another MMO. Every weapon have some propriety that make them unique. You have to make choice to slot them and to use them intelligently. This give personnaly to the weapon. The lore is also really important for me : Why mess it up for only a weapon that make give only +1 dommage per second than the previous one, but make no sense in the story.

The problem is that number are so easy to change than given new intersting ability.

For me style is a lot more important than power. Style is not only about cosmetic,but I also how you character have some personnality. Sure it's fun to feel powerful, but those make non-sense in long time. A flaming weapon from Korthos looks really cool it have flame on it. Other MMO you would have something like +1 str +1 dex for exemple. It sound like yeah I got a weapon that give me more power like every other weapon in the game. Only number change.

This really something I like about DDO. The lore of the equipement. Please does not give this to only put something more powerfull just because they need a bigger carrot to run after.

[DarkForte]

There is no power spectrum for greatswords at least. There's non-epic lootgen, low-power epic lootgen, Lit II, stronger epic lootgen (desert wind and such) and surpassing those by a gazillion, eSoS. Anything else isn't even worth considering.

Even when considering other THF, there is hardly anything to breach the gap between eAGA/Cleaver (which are relatively easy to acquire) and eSoS for players who want something more but don't feel like grinding von til their eyes bleed out.

What if we got more option. not necessarly more powerfull than the old but only different. The expension give some option like:

◦ Breach, The Dividing Blade - +7 Falchion: 2.5[2d6], 18-20/x2, Shrieking, Disintegration, Shatter +10, Doublestrike 6%
Cleaver, Hewer of Suffering - +7 Greataxe: 2.50[2d8] 20/x3, Hemorrhaging, Limb Chopper, Improved Cursespewing, Doublestrike 6%
Drow X of the Weapon Master - +6 Weapons with a +1 Expanded critical threat, Triple base weapon damage (3W), Maiming and One Random Tactics Bonus (Exceptional Combat Mastery +5, Shatter +10, Stunning +10, Vertigo +10 or Tendon Slice +10)

Sireth, Spear of the Sky - +7 Quarterstaff: 2.5[1d10], Double Expanded Threat: 18-20/x2 and Slashing/Piercing damage - not bludgeoning, Supreme Good, Lightning Strike, Cloudburst, Freedom of Movement, Feather Falling

Stout Oak Walking Stick - Quarterstaff: 2[2d6]+6, Increased Multiplier: 19-20/x3 (including Impact), Aligned, Fracturing, Felling the Oak, Immunity to Slippery Surfaces [ML:20]

That's not different. That's strictly worse for dps unless you're an acrobat using sireth (which is a very niche build). The only reason to use any of these other weapons over eSoS that I can think of is if you're a SnB tank build using Mornh that wants a two-hander option. In that case, Sireth works nicely due to working with IC: bludgeon. I repeat, that is not 'different', that's appealing to more niche builds. Meanwhile, the rest of us are using the same weapon since eVoN was released.

[sephiroth1084]

Don't people realize SoS is also subject to situational variables? like fortification? like DR?

That for lots of situations something like a epic Antique Greataxe is better...

That the new spear con be better too on some situations.

Ddo is kind of rock, papers, scissors... go out there do some math for your toon in specific and decide what to do...

Those variables have become less and less relevant. We now have more ways to make our weapons bypass certain types of DR independently of their actual properties, and we have many ways to lower Fortification. There are few/no weapons that are better than the ESoS against something with DR 0 and 25% Fort I believe, and the current endgame, such as it is, isn't exactly rife with complex DR, high-fort enemies.

Idea for a "better situational ESoS":
+8 2[2d6] greatsword, 19-20/x2
Epic <insert relevant creature type> Bane
Bane Bypass (breaks all DR on creatures of the Bane type)
<Bane type> Devastating (against creatures of the Bane type, the crit multiplier of this weapon increase by 2)

So, against, say, Evil Outsiders, this would be
+14, 2[2d6], 17-20 (with Improved Crit)/x4
+6d6
Transmuting

That's just spitballing. If 19-20/x4 isn't enough, it could be changed, but the idea is that the weapon is better against specific targets, or in specific situations. The idea would be that you should carry the ESoS for the variety of monsters you fight, but a few situationally better weapons for specific targets. We do this now a little bit with a Stunning weapon (pre-Dun'Robar) and something like the EAG for tough DR types.

[Cetus]

Those variables have become less and less relevant. We now have more ways to make our weapons bypass certain types of DR independently of their actual properties, and we have many ways to lower Fortification. There are few/no weapons that are better than the ESoS against something with DR 0 and 25% Fort I believe, and the current endgame, such as it is, isn't exactly rife with complex DR, high-fort enemies.

Idea for a "better situational ESoS":
+8 2[2d6] greatsword, 19-20/x2
Epic <insert relevant creature type> Bane
Bane Bypass (breaks all DR on creatures of the Bane type)
<Bane type> Devastating (against creatures of the Bane type, the crit multiplier of this weapon increase by 2)

So, against, say, Evil Outsiders, this would be
+14, 2[2d6], 17-20 (with Improved Crit)/x4
+6d6
Transmuting

That's just spitballing. If 19-20/x4 isn't enough, it could be changed, but the idea is that the weapon is better against specific targets, or in specific situations. The idea would be that you should carry the ESoS for the variety of monsters you fight, but a few situationally better weapons for specific targets. We do this now a little bit with a Stunning weapon (pre-Dun'Robar) and something like the EAG for tough DR types.

Exactly.

I mean, does anyone else see the utter spit in the face the devs gave us with the earthcarver? We get no greatsword ANYWHERE in the pack. But, when you run that one quest out in bumblefrick who knows where, you see a perfectly good example of a weapon we should have had - but OOPS, you can't have it!

From that perspective, its sickening, unfun, and discouraging.

Hell, the Oath of Droamm is EXACTLY what the cleaver should've looked like.

[sephiroth1084]

Exactly.

I mean, does anyone else see the utter spit in the face the devs gave us with the earthcarver? We get no greatsword ANYWHERE in the pack. But, when you run that one quest out in bumblefrick who knows where, you see a perfectly good example of a weapon we should have had - but OOPS, you can't have it!

From that perspective, its sickening, unfun, and discouraging.

First, while I do feel it was a major failure of the raid to not include a greatsword (though, really, not a HUGE deal to anyone but Kenseis with an ESoS), khopesh (though, again, for non-Kenseis Balizarde is a fine replacement), or anything for divine casters and weak-combat bards, I wouldn't call it sickening. Discouraging, yes, sickening, no.

The real issue isn't that there is no greatsword, it's that there isn't anything to make running the raid worthwhile. Now, Kenseis are in kind of a bind, because they are tied to specific weapon types, so any update that doesn't cover them, kind of screws the Kensei, although, if something better comes out, you can fairly easily swap to using that weapon, unless it moves to a different category of slashing, piercing, bludgeoning.

If Cleaver were competitive with the ESoS, no one would be complaining about the lack of a greatsword. Why anyone besides fighters are complaining about the lack of a khopesh is beyond me--Balizarde is 15-20/x3, better than any khopesh (you can argue the other stats separately).

I agree about Earthcarver. I was very disappointed to discover that this was a quest-only item. I really think someone over at Turbine has an especially malicious streak for continuing to dangle exceptionally cool weapons before us, that we can't keep.

Hell, the Oath of Droamm is EXACTLY what the cleaver should've looked like.

Eh. Cleaver looks much better than the Oath does. The problem isn't that Cleaver isn't strong, it's that it isn't strong enough to
A) entice someone away from an ESoS
B) easier to get than an ESoS (which would have at least made it attractive as an alternative for people who don't want that grind)
C) isn't really strong enough, even if you don't have an ESoS, to bother with the raid.

It doesn't do anything better than an ESoS--it doesn't break DR, it doesn't really offer more in the way of 100% Fort DPS, and it doesn't scale with our inflating damage modifiers anywhere near as well.

[ThePrisoner]

Greatsword and khopesh are only two weapon types out of the forty that exist. There are plenty of good weapons in the raid; the bastard sword, the short sword, both staves, the rapier, the xbow, the bow, the warhammer...
Plus these weapons are going have the ability to be boosted even higher with the next update. I have a few characters that I want gear for out of that raid, but I have variety in my characters and adapt with the changes of the game. If you get stuck in the mindset of what worked a year or two ago, you are likely to get left behind.

The fact that they are encouraging weapon variety is a good thing. DDO is much less interesting when khopesh, greatsword, and greataxe are the only valid weapon types.

[Chai]

Especially since the developers burned themselves for making kensei a PrE that forces the player to specialize in a specific weapon, and then not deliver newer variants. That immediately ****es off a subset of the playerbase right from the start.

The problem with lore is that it explains why a subset of the population cannot have the same bang for their buck that another subset has received. Lore arguments are never an avenue that one should take to justify the lack of fun a population has.

How thematic is a drow maul then? Aren't the folks we fight in there BLADEmasters? I don't see drow falchions either...yet one drops in the raid.

I see a drow khopesh...yet one doesn't drop in the raid.

I see greatswords in neither case.

This, to me, seems entirely arbitrary.

It is these two comments that completely explain the two biggest roadblocks to what you are asking for.

1. Yes, it is completely arbitrary. They change the stats up regarding base damage, crit threat, crit multiplier, and effects on a weapon, but those no longer clearly define the WEAPON TYPE anymore. With no clear definition on what the crit threat and multiplier have to be, they can make any weapon with any stats they want.

2. Kensai (which you play a completionist version of with alot of time invested into) get ONE signature weapon. What they need to do is allow them to choose more than one - which was how 3.0 (and later 3.5) weaponmaster worked, which was very close to kensai in flavor.

Signature weapon (Ex): At 1st level the weaponmaster selects his signature weapon. He has exceptional training withthis sort of weapons and gains increasing benefits with itwith increasing level (see ”Signature weapon”, below).The signature weapon is not a single specific weapon,but rather the whole weapon category (e.g. longswords,greataxes, or longbows). Therefore, the weaponmastergains the associated benefits for as long as he wields any weapon that matches his choice of signature weapon. The bonuses are permanent. Once chosen the signature weapon is permanent. The signature weapon improves at level 5, and again at levels 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30.

Signature style (Ex): When reaching 3rd level the weaponmaster has also begun to train for a specific combat style, maximizing his combat efficiency (see ”Signature style”, below). The signature style is composed of one combat style and one armor style. The combat style list includes unarmed, one-handed weapon, two-handed weapon, two weapons, weapon and shield, and ranged. The armor style list includes unarmored, light armor, medium armor, and heavy armor. The bonuses only apply if the weaponmaster actually uses his signature style. The bonuses are permanent. Once chosen the signature style is permanent. The signature style improves at level 8, and again at levels 13, 18, 23, and 28.

So if youre a THF kensai, you could be great ax early on and choose great sword later. You can see how veering even slightly off the metagaming path would cost more feats. If someone wanted to choose great ax, and then maul for their second weapon, they either have to ALSO take improved critical blunt as well as weapon focus blunt (to qualify), or not be optimized with a maul against foes that can be crit on. If someone wanted to be greatsword AND khopesh kensai, they would need to spec into all the feats that support BOTH thf and twf in order to make that work. Things that would work would be khopesh / scimitar, or greatsword / greatax where the improved crit and weapon focus feats already line up. Even a human kensai with 19 feats wouldnt have the run of the mill on all weapons, but it would allow and encourage people to play fighters as they wouldnt be locked into this one weapon choice for all eternity. Right now the game for fighters is: Do whatever you want til you get an eSOS, then LR to greatsword spec. /yawn.