Guild Renown Changes

[Gremmlynn]

Everyone wants to be King.

No one wants to be the footsoldier.

Which is why we have so many small guilds. Here, anyone who can think up a name can be king.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Which is why we have so many small guilds. Here, anyone who can think up a name can be king.

Which is also their right in DDO. I know of many one person guilds that are doing well.

In any case - that has nothing to do with Renown Decay.

Kobold says 'SHIIIIINNNNEEEEEYYYYYY' and looks at the king.

[Tshober]

Not sure how the renown system works. But It feels like, to me, that it is easier for guilds to gain levels now. The change went in some time in late Sept/early Oct?

The initial change went in around 10/22/2012 so it has been in place for nearly 5 months now. It did make it easier for most guilds to gain levels. Every guild that has more than 10 players in it got a decrease in daily decay. Guilds with 10 players or less got no change in decay versus the old decay system. Additionally, since the initial change, the devs have added some more ways to get renown in the game that were not in place before. So overall, every guild should now be more easily able to gain levels than they were before. Hopefully, the decay decrease can be extended to include those tiny guilds with 10 players or less that have not received any decay relief yet, but even if it cannot they will still be better off than they were under the old decay system because of the added ways to earn renown.

[Tshober]

Which is why we have so many small guilds. Here, anyone who can think up a name can be king.

That's one reason. Another reason is the old decay system, which was in place for years, favored smaller and more exclusive guilds. Yet another reason is dead and dying guilds hang around forever in DDO. Unless the leader elects to disband it rather than just stop playing DDO, there is no way to ever get rid of a guild one once it is created. The DDO guild list is chock full of completely dead guilds and of failed guilds that are being perpetuated by a few diehard members. Also, as you pointed out, there are many guilds that are just the personal guild of a single player who may or may not be playing on multiple accounts.

[eris2323]

Which is why we have so many small guilds. Here, anyone who can think up a name can be king.

Turbine is so strapped for cash recently, I wonder why they don't raise the cost of guild charters to 1500 tp, from 150 tp.

Make them EARN that guild.

Or at least pad Turbines Pockets; and cut down on the amount of guilds.

Everyone wants to be king.

No one wants to be a knight.

Guild not doing well in this multiplayer online game? Try adding new players, problem solved! Make new friends, enhance the game, and be a part of a community!

[eris2323]

Which is also their right in DDO. I know of many one person guilds that are doing well.

In any case - that has nothing to do with Renown Decay.

Kobold says 'SHIIIIINNNNEEEEEYYYYYY' and looks at the king.

Oh, you know many ONE PERSON guilds doing well?

Guess we don't really need a change in the system then; one player guilds doing fine, multi-player guilds doing fine...

Everything seems fine, why mess it up?

Going back to the old system is insanity.

[UurlockYgmeov]

SO here is the updated and revised proposal - prioritized easiest to implement first to the most difficult last.

Eliminate Decay Altogether.

but if Turbine says no, then:

1. Revert to pre-change except for following significant changes that take away 99% of the pressure away to boot. Is fair for all guilds of all sizes of all styles of play. Booting will still occur - but not because of the system.
   
   1. instead of 30 days until inactive, change to two days (changed to two to account for weekend);
   2. remove the +10 to the modified guild size in the formula, with a modified minimum guild size becoming one - no cap/limit.
   3. adjust decay to affect all guilds of all levels. and lower decay for higher level guilds by 35-50% (the level multiplier drops from up to 4.5 down to 2.5).
      
      1. New formula would be something like: modified_guild_size(minimum 1) x (guild_level x 2.5 (two point five)).(corrected - forgot decimal) - this change alone reduces decay for most guilds by up to 93%)
      2. Keep It Simple - keep it transparent and easy to explain, understand, and compute.
   4. Ransack set to start at 500K per day or at 2nd level - whichever is easier to implement. Ransack doesn't start to kick in until (500K) or (2nd level) is reached.
   5. member is not counted toward modified guild size until steps into quest, slayer area, on any guild ship, uses guild vendor, or generates renown in any form.
2. VIP's should get +10% renown - this is now in line with what Fernando stated about new benefits starting with +10% xp for VIPs that begin next patch(s.i.c. below).
3. Implement (aka ADD a)simple Provisional (two-week) guild invite - invitee does not affect guild renown. So doesn't earn renown, and isn't counted toward modified guild size. Allows guild and prospect to try each other out and see if the fit is right. changed term to provisional - Thanks Fearmaker!
4. there needs to be a new form of Global Friends List - one that acts like facebook in most basic essence. You ask someone to be on your friends list (or offer) - and can select to be public, private; to show online status - last log, show all or just one characters in account; and an easier way to talk with them in game without having to be in a guild. Once a player is on your Global Friends List - you can see any of their characters from any of their characters (can still flag yourself as "invisible" or "do not disturb" to make a character not show up in global list). This lets us do global ignore as well, for those who would use it. Selecting (or hovering over with tool tip) a Global Friend in your list and it shows you the last (visible) character they logged in as, the server, and how long ago they logged off, if they aren't online. thanks to Artos_Fabril for the improvements!
5. Guild Information Kiosk: There needs to be a better way for guilds to communicate information in-game about their guilds to the general public - including membership rules, play times and styles, recruitment status - and a way to ask for an invitation. Current methods are all out of game (compendium) and private web-sites (guildportal.com for example) both require programming knowledge (wiki style and web layout). Just have a guild information kiosk in the upper harbor and or in Korthos where players could talk to the NPC to find out more about guilds (general), guilds (specific guilds), search for a guild, message guild leader (inquiry), and apply for membership to a guild. The alternative is to add another page to the social panel that does this as well.
6. Need a replacement to fill in the void caused by the demise of guild-slotted equipment. Not a total replacement, rather something that fills the greatest void. Two new ship amenities - each with different level for different level guilds. (Again thank you to Fearmaker and Alyonna for the suggestion)
   
   • Tiny: no ship available so not applicable
   • Small: Minimum Guild Level 25
     
     • Hit Point Shrine:+10 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +40 stacking maximum SP (+80 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)
   • Medium: Minimum Guild Level 45
     
     • Hit Point Shrine: +15 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +60 stacking maximum SP (+80 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)
   • Large: Minimum Guild Level 70
     
     • Hit Point Shrine: +30 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +80 stacking maximum SP (+160 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)

add 10% boost to all earned XP for VIP accounts.

seen this firsthand (on Lammania) and in the Lamannia release notes.

Kindly Note: Large Guilds (which are the minority in both number and total membership vs total population) object to any changes from the temporary ad hoc kludged system and wish the existing temporary system made permanent.

[eris2323]

SO here is the updated and revised proposal - prioritized easiest to implement first to the most difficult last.

Eliminate Decay Altogether.

but if Turbine says no, then:

1. Revert to pre-change except for following significant changes that take away 99% of the pressure away to boot. Is fair for all guilds of all sizes of all styles of play. Booting will still occur - but not because of the system.
   
   1. instead of 30 days until inactive, change to two days (changed to two to account for weekend);
   2. remove the +10 to the modified guild size in the formula, with a modified minimum guild size becoming one - no cap/limit.
   3. adjust decay to affect all guilds of all levels. and lower decay for higher level guilds by 35-50% (the level multiplier drops from up to 4.5 down to 2.5).
      
      1. New formula would be something like: modified_guild_size(minimum 1) x (guild_level x 2.5 (two point five)).(corrected - forgot decimal) - this change alone reduces decay for most guilds by up to 93%)
      2. Keep It Simple - keep it transparent and easy to explain, understand, and compute.
   4. Ransack set to start at 500K per day or at 2nd level - whichever is easier to implement. Ransack doesn't start to kick in until (500K) or (2nd level) is reached.
   5. member is not counted toward modified guild size until steps into quest, slayer area, on any guild ship, uses guild vendor, or generates renown in any form.
2. VIP's should get +10% renown - this is now in line with what Fernando stated about new benefits starting with +10% xp for VIPs that begin next patch(s.i.c. below).
3. Implement (aka ADD a)simple Provisional (two-week) guild invite - invitee does not affect guild renown. So doesn't earn renown, and isn't counted toward modified guild size. Allows guild and prospect to try each other out and see if the fit is right. changed term to provisional - Thanks Fearmaker!
4. there needs to be a new form of Global Friends List - one that acts like facebook in most basic essence. You ask someone to be on your friends list (or offer) - and can select to be public, private; to show online status - last log, show all or just one characters in account; and an easier way to talk with them in game without having to be in a guild. Once a player is on your Global Friends List - you can see any of their characters from any of their characters (can still flag yourself as "invisible" or "do not disturb" to make a character not show up in global list). This lets us do global ignore as well, for those who would use it. Selecting (or hovering over with tool tip) a Global Friend in your list and it shows you the last (visible) character they logged in as, the server, and how long ago they logged off, if they aren't online. thanks to Artos_Fabril for the improvements!
5. Guild Information Kiosk: There needs to be a better way for guilds to communicate information in-game about their guilds to the general public - including membership rules, play times and styles, recruitment status - and a way to ask for an invitation. Current methods are all out of game (compendium) and private web-sites (guildportal.com for example) both require programming knowledge (wiki style and web layout). Just have a guild information kiosk in the upper harbor and or in Korthos where players could talk to the NPC to find out more about guilds (general), guilds (specific guilds), search for a guild, message guild leader (inquiry), and apply for membership to a guild. The alternative is to add another page to the social panel that does this as well.
6. Need a replacement to fill in the void caused by the demise of guild-slotted equipment. Not a total replacement, rather something that fills the greatest void. Two new ship amenities - each with different level for different level guilds. (Again thank you to Fearmaker and Alyonna for the suggestion)
   
   • Tiny: no ship available so not applicable
   • Small: Minimum Guild Level 25
     
     • Hit Point Shrine:+10 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +40 stacking maximum SP (+80 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)
   • Medium: Minimum Guild Level 45
     
     • Hit Point Shrine: +15 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +60 stacking maximum SP (+80 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)
   • Large: Minimum Guild Level 70
     
     • Hit Point Shrine: +30 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +80 stacking maximum SP (+160 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)

seen this firsthand (on Lammania) and in the Lamannia release notes.

Kindly Note: Large Guilds (which are the minority in both number and total membership vs total population) object to any changes from the temporary ad hoc kludged system and wish the existing temporary system made permanent.

Based on this current list, i highly disagree with point 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6, and feel that some of those should be in the 'suggestions' forum by themselves, and not in this thread, as they are only confusing the issues.

I'm a little iffy on point 2, as well. Seems like it might encourage 'vip only' guilds to flourish, which i am fine with on principle, but if it becomes a big 'thing' will make it a less friendly atmosphere to new and free players.

All of your suggestions require a LOT of new programming work, and frankly, the end results will not be any better than going back to the previous, entirely broken system that turbine removed.

I'd rather the devs worked on their enhancements and content rather than try to implement your system, as your system is not good, and only serves to help 'your' type of guild while trying to return the system to an unfriendly type of 'you must play to make your renown debt or get out' atmosphere, which I am totally against.

[Tshober]

SO here is the updated and revised proposal - prioritized easiest to implement first to the most difficult last.

How many times are you going to re-post this clunker?

It is overly complex and difficult to implement, which might be okay if it did something useful. But all it does is take us back toward the old decay system where guilds are rewarded for shunning some players for no other reason than the fact that they earn less renown than they cost in decay. Re-posting it a dozen times in green text will not change that.

[UurlockYgmeov]

feel that some of those should be in the 'suggestions' forum by themselves

I'm a little iffy on point 2, as well. Seems like it might encourage 'vip only' guilds to flourish, which i am fine with on principle

All of your suggestions require a LOT of new programming work, and frankly, the end results will not be any better than going back to the previous, entirely broken system that turbine removed.

I'd rather the devs worked on their enhancements and content

Yes, several of the ideas could be on their own - but presented in a package (which btw is prioritized) is a good idea. Some of the idea's are symbiotic in nature, and some are just good ideas that have been raised in the discussions in this thread.

Nah - no real way of telling if a player is VIP or not - it is a personal private thing. (It can be done - but not directly)

If a guild wishes to be a VIP only guild, well it is their right and they should be able to do it (personally don't like it - but it is their right - as long as they communicate that requirement up front, and fairly apply said requirement); but they will have fun trying to ascertain the VIP status of all their accounts.

Enhancement pass is primarily done IIRC - should be going live with U18 on lammania shortly. U17 patch 1 with the ASAH / Daily Dice / collectable interface improvements goes live on Monday. Very little coding needed - just an extended beta / bug test on Lamannia (smart very smart).

The Dev's and programmers are already working on improving the guild system, and the primary core of the proposal requires very little coding - rather minor modifications to static variables in existing code, code that is currently being used to assign renown decay.

So if you say the code which is almost identical now as it was before the temporary kludge was made - then you are also saying that the current temporary decay system is broken.

[eris2323]

Yes, several of the ideas could be on their own - but presented in a package (which btw is prioritized) is a good idea. Some of the idea's are symbiotic in nature, and some are just good ideas that have been raised in the discussions in this thread.

Nah - no real way of telling if a player is VIP or not - it is a personal private thing. (It can be done - but not directly)

If a guild wishes to be a VIP only guild, well it is their right and they should be able to do it (personally don't like it - but it is their right - as long as they communicate that requirement up front, and fairly apply said requirement); but they will have fun trying to ascertain the VIP status of all their accounts.

Enhancement pass is primarily done IIRC - should be going live with U18 on lammania shortly. U17 patch 1 with the ASAH / Daily Dice / collectable interface improvements goes live on Monday. Very little coding needed - just an extended beta / bug test on Lamannia (smart very smart).

The Dev's and programmers are already working on improving the guild system, and the primary core of the proposal requires very little coding - rather minor modifications to static variables in existing code, code that is currently being used to assign renown decay.

So if you say the code which is almost identical now as it was before the temporary kludge was made - then you are also saying that the current temporary decay system is broken.

No, I love the current system, and think it is one of the few things the devs did EXACTLY right.

I don't think a change is needed at all. It's perfect.

Your ideas are bad. Returning to a system based on number of players in guild is bad.

Sorry, it just is a bad idea, and I will never, ever support it. I would give up our guild to one of our high council and leave the game if they ever did something so stupid as to return to a system which penalizes guilds for adding players to their guild.

[UurlockYgmeov]

How many times are you going to re-post this

It is overly complex and difficult to implement,

But all it does is take us back toward the old decay system where guilds are rewarded for shunning some players for no other reason than the fact that they earn less renown than they cost in decay.

in green text will not change that.

Until something better comes along.

It is the existing system just with minor code changes that have profound but fair impact on all.

We never left the system that put pressure on guilds to boot less active accounts - and we probably never will. The current temporary kludge just shifted the pressure from the minority of guilds to the majority of guilds.

Ok - how about blue next time?

No, I love the current system, and think it is one of the few things the devs did EXACTLY right.

Your ideas are bad. Returning to a system based on number of players in guild is bad.

Sorry, it just is a bad idea, and I will never, ever support it. I would give up our guild to one of our high council and leave the game if they ever did something so stupid as to return to a system which penalizes guilds for adding players to their guild.

As has been pointed out - your guild is one of the few (the minority) that benefited from the temporary kludge. Obviously you would object - and that object has been noted in the proposal.

If a guild enjoys the benefits of a large membership base then it should also enjoy the drawbacks. Fair is fair.

Ok - see ya!

And penalizes guilds? you are only seeing the veins on the leaf of the tree in the forest on the continent on the planet in the solar system in the galaxy in the universe in the whole of entirety. This is more than just about the minority of guilds and the minority of players (which large guilds represent). The system should be fair to at least the majority, in not all guilds and players. The current kludge is not, all it did was shift the unfairness from the minority to the majority.

Hurting the majority to help the minority is not only unfair, but just plain wrong and selfish.

[eris2323]

Until something better comes along.

It is the existing system just with minor code changes that have profound but fair impact on all.

We never left the system that put pressure on guilds to boot less active accounts - and we probably never will. The current temporary kludge just shifted the pressure from the minority of guilds to the majority of guilds.

Ok - how about blue next time?



As has been pointed out - your guild is one of the few (the minority) that benefited from the temporary kludge. Obviously you would object - and that object has been noted in the proposal.

If a guild enjoys the benefits of a large membership base then it should also enjoy the drawbacks. Fair is fair.

Ok - see ya!

And penalizes guilds? you are only seeing the veins on the leaf of the tree in the forest on the continent on the planet in the solar system in the galaxy in the universe in the whole of entirety. This is more than just about the minority of guilds and the minority of players (which large guilds represent). The system should be fair to at least the majority, in not all guilds and players. The current kludge is not, all it did was shift the unfairness from the minority to the majority.

Hurting the majority to help the minority is not only unfair, but just plain wrong and selfish.

Yes, our guild is now very slowly gaining levels, after 2 years of being in limbo.

You know why? It's because we accept all players, casual, social, power... we don't care, as long as you get along with the rest of us.

For 2 years we paid our dues. Every day, we paid our renown debt, under the insane old system, and we lost many players SOLELY due to the system.

The current system is perfect, I am not sure exactly why you feel it should be changed, I can only imagine it is because you want every 1 player guild to have the ability to get to level 100.

And by your own words, you know many single player guilds doing well.

So there doesn't seem to currently be a problem; by your own words.

You have no idea how much hatred towards turbine has been spoken in our private chats. NO idea how many people angry and outraged at the stupid rules that penalize us for having casual players. We're a large guild, and each and every one of us was aware EXACTLY how much we were getting harmed by Turbines rules on casual players, social players, and basically anyone who wasn't a 6-person powergamer guild.

You also have no idea of your data - The most information you can POSSIBLY be using to make your plot, is from myddo or the other EXTERNAL guild counting sites. You have no access to turbine data, such as actual played guilds, current members, current hours of play vs amount of players, or anything along those lines. You are simply making guesses and assuming you are correct.

So if you don't mind, why don't we test out the current system for exactly as long as we did the first system, hmmm?

Seems only fair, and Turbine - the only ones with the REAL data on the issue, will get more juicy data.

Your proposed system is overly complex and does NOT fix the problems with the old system.

That is the main issue here. Your ideas will not work out well.

[Menace13]

The initial change went in around 10/22/2012 so it has been in place for nearly 5 months now. It did make it easier for most guilds to gain levels. Every guild that has more than 10 players in it got a decrease in daily decay. Guilds with 10 players or less got no change in decay versus the old decay system. Additionally, since the initial change, the devs have added some more ways to get renown in the game that were not in place before. So overall, every guild should now be more easily able to gain levels than they were before. Hopefully, the decay decrease can be extended to include those tiny guilds with 10 players or less that have not received any decay relief yet, but even if it cannot they will still be better off than they were under the old decay system because of the added ways to earn renown.

Yeah, I recalled joining ddo few weeks prior. A month after the changes I found a guild at lv 72, and now it's almost 90. I think it is better off, the way it is now

[Tshober]

Until something better comes along.

I have seen a dozen better ideas posted in this very thread. Most of them had the courtesy to only post their proposal one time though, rather than spam it over and over again. You want to take us back in the direction of the old decay system. We get that. No need to keep re-posting it over and over and over again in green text.

That old decay system was rejected for good reason. How about making a proposal that moves us forward, not backward? Many proposals have been made that do not take us back in the direction of more decay, and more unfun renown farming just to stay in place, and rewarding guilds for shunning some players for no other reason than the fact that they cost more renown in decay than they can earn. Heck, the current decay system (which I admit is flawed) is already better than your proposal. There is no good reason to go back in the direction of the old decay system. The small flaws in the current system can be addressed without going backward.

[UurlockYgmeov]

You know why? It's because we accept all players, casual, social, power... we don't care, as long as you get along with the rest of us.

+1 for you. That is guild's chosen method and it is your right. I personally applaud your guild for their open enrollment policy.

Guilds should have and dohave the right to have other membership requirements - some only speak la langue française. Does that make their guild any less deserving of respect and fair play? Non

I can only imagine it is because you want every 1 player guild to have the capable to get to level 100.

As have stated numerous times - every guild should have the capability to reach level 100 - just not all have the ability to do so; so many will not reach level 100.

c'est la vie. At least the system should be fair to give them the capability and not just give them the ability.

You have no idea how much hatred towards turbine has been spoken in our private chats. NO idea how many people angry and outraged at the stupid rules that penalize us for having casual players. We're a large guild, and each and every one of us was aware EXACTLY how much we were getting harmed by Turbines rules on casual players, social players, and basically anyone who wasn't a 6-person powergamer guild.

Exactly the same sentiments and words that are now being spoken by the majority of guilds. Is it fair this temporary kludge? not to the overwhelming majority.

You also have no idea of your data - The most information you can POSSIBLY be using to make your plot, is from myddo or the other EXTERNAL guild counting sites. You have no access to turbine data, such as actual played guilds, current members, current hours of play vs amount of players, or anything along those lines. You are simply making guesses and assuming you are correct.

Since you have attacked me personally - I will now defend myself: I have been told repeatedly by highly qualified and respected individuals that my genius is in advanced information synthesis (besides being a world class chef, former cray programmer and engineer) - and routinely take vast amounts of information often unrelated and synthesis information from it. Kinda like data mining - but on a different, much higher level of difficulty.

I have always said where I get my information from - and have always posted disclaimers when hard numbers/ facts were presented (just posted an article from psychology today to support a statement I made several posts ago).

Allot of information is available through my.ddo.com and your.ddo.com - most of this information is derivatory and often sadly out of date; however by using black box analysis and reverse engineering algorithms - one can get to the hard truth; which is what I have based my information on.

Where I have done a Spock and did my best estimate - and always the most conservative of estimation, so if my models are off they are off in favor of less decay.

So kindly present evidence that contraindicates my statistics and we go from there.

So if you don't mind, why don't we test out the current system for exactly as long as we did the first system, hmmm?

Not my choice - Turbine has already stated definately that this is a 'temporary change until a more permanent solution can be found.'

So strongly recommend trying to be part of the solution rather than on Kobold hiding in its nest, trying to hide from the winds of change.

Seems only fair,

So the heart of the matter for you personally comes out - you want re-compensation for the previous issues - that you knew about before joining the guild. Just the more reason to replace the temporary unfair kludge with a permanent fair solution.

more juicy data.

More data is often a waste of time - there is currently enough data to make qualified, informed intelligent decisions; any more is redundant and just muddies the issues.

More data doesn't make the existing data less truthful, that the temporary kludge is as unfair, if not more unfair and discriminatory than the previous system the kludge was put in place to temporarily fix

All the obfuscation will not change the fact that the temporary kludge is not only temporary, but also unjust/unfair to the majority of guilds and players..

Your proposed system is overly complex and does NOT fix the problems with the old system.

A. not my system; it is a blending of all ideas from this thread. the best of the best.
B. Overly complex? The core is mere slight coding changes to static variables that maximize fairness to all - nothing complex about that. About as much coding as the existing temporary kludge.
C. The rest of the proposal are suggestions - good solid suggestions that have come from this very thread. We would love to see them implemented - but they do not affect the core validity of the proposal. In essence they are the frosting to the cake, the Au Jus to the beef wellington, the Bose Surround Sound to a 7.1 THX Blu-ray movie. Groovy and wonderful, but not necessary.

I have seen a dozen better ideas posted in this very thread.

green text.

Then kindly post them. We can integrate them into the proposal. Since they are so six months ago and no-one has bothered to champion them - they probably aren't worth the electrons used to view them.

Ok - blue it is!

That old decay system was rejected for good reason.

Actually - we never left the 'old decay system' as you put it. The existing decay system had a temporary kludge installed - and this kludge did not fix the issue - rather shift the problem from the minority to the majority. So what was unfair prior to the kludge is still unfair.

The proposal (soon to be in blue (Pantone™ Process Blue if I can help it ) changes the existing system in a simple (both coding and implementation) that is universally fair to all.

[eris2323]

+1 for you. That is guild's chosen method and it is your right. I personally applaud your guild for their open enrollment policy.

Guilds should have and dohave the right to have other membership requirements - some only speak la langue française. Does that make their guild any less deserving of respect and fair play? Non


As have stated numerous times - every guild should have the capability to reach level 100 - just not all have the ability to do so; so many will not reach level 100.

c'est la vie. At least the system should be fair to give them the capability and not just give them the ability.


Exactly the same sentiments and words that are now being spoken by the majority of guilds. Is it fair this temporary kludge? not to the overwhelming majority.



Since you have attacked me personally - I will now defend myself: I have been told repeatedly by highly qualified and respected individuals that my genius is in advanced information synthesis (besides being a world class chef, former cray programmer and engineer) - and routinely take vast amounts of information often unrelated and synthesis information from it. Kinda like data mining - but on a different, much higher level of difficulty.

I have always said where I get my information from - and have always posted disclaimers when hard numbers/ facts were presented (just posted an article from psychology today to support a statement I made several posts ago).

Allot of information is available through my.ddo.com and your.ddo.com - most of this information is derivatory and often sadly out of date; however by using black box analysis and reverse engineering algorithms - one can get to the hard truth; which is what I have based my information on.

Where I have done a Spock and did my best estimate - and always the most conservative of estimation, so if my models are off they are off in favor of less decay.

So kindly present evidence that contraindicates my statistics and we go from there.


Not my choice - Turbine has already stated definately that this is a 'temporary change until a more permanent solution can be found.'

So strongly recommend trying to be part of the solution rather than on Kobold hiding in its nest, trying to hide from the winds of change.


So the heart of the matter for you personally comes out - you want re-compensation for the previous issues - that you knew about before joining the guild. Just the more reason to replace the temporary unfair kludge with a permanent fair solution.


More data is often a waste of time - there is currently enough data to make qualified, informed intelligent decisions; any more is redundant and just muddies the issues.

More data doesn't make the existing data less truthful, that the temporary kludge is as unfair, if not more unfair and discriminatory than the previous system the kludge was put in place to temporarily fix

All the obfuscation will not change the fact that the temporary kludge is not only temporary, but also unjust/unfair to the majority of guilds and players..


A. not my system; it is a blending of all ideas from this thread. the best of the best.
B. Overly complex? The core is mere slight coding changes to static variables that maximize fairness to all - nothing complex about that. About as much coding as the existing temporary kludge.
C. The rest of the proposal are suggestions - good solid suggestions that have come from this very thread. We would love to see them implemented - but they do not affect the core validity of the proposal. In essence they are the frosting to the cake, the Au Jus to the beef wellington, the Bose Surround Sound to a 7.1 THX Blu-ray movie. Groovy and wonderful, but not necessary.


Then kindly post them. We can integrate them into the proposal. Since they are so six months ago and no-one has bothered to champion them - they probably aren't worth the electrons used to view them.

Ok - blue it is!


Actually - we never left the 'old decay system' as you put it. The existing decay system had a temporary kludge installed - and this kludge did not fix the issue - rather shift the problem from the minority to the majority. So what was unfair prior to the kludge is still unfair.

The proposal (soon to be in blue (Pantone™ Process Blue if I can help it ) changes the existing system in a simple (both coding and implementation) that is universally fair to all.

Your sources of information are flawed, just like your proposed plans.

And frankly, wow, That's just too long of a post to completely respond to.

You've made your proposal; people are shooting it down... is there really any need to keep re-posting it? A few people now have said it's overly complex. It's not just me. A few have also said they'd rather stay with what we have, rather than go to yours.

You have no way of proving your 'numbers' or your data, and neither do I.

The only ones with full access to the data, is Turbine.

I'm sorry, but you're just guessing - and this essay of a post is just based on flawed assumptions on your part.

Trying to browbeat me with a mountain of text, or trying to claim that I must ALSO use flawed data to prove some sort of mathematical point is just bullying. I will not stoop to the level of using flawed data sources to make some sort of hypothetical point.

If turbine wanted to give me full access to their stats and information, on the other hand, I'd consider it.

[UurlockYgmeov]

...

blah blah blah obfuscation You lack ANY data and at least I have data, even if imperfect, which allows for data extrapolation (which btw is a well defined science)

SO here is the updated and revised proposal - prioritized easiest to implement first to the most difficult last.

Eliminate Decay Altogether.

but if Turbine says no, then:

1. Revert to pre-change except for following significant changes that take away 99% of the pressure away to boot. Is fair for all guilds of all sizes of all styles of play. Booting will still occur - but not because of the system.
   
   1. instead of 30 days until inactive, change to two days (changed to two to account for weekend);
   2. remove the +10 to the modified guild size in the formula, with a modified minimum guild size becoming one - no cap/limit.
   3. adjust decay to affect all guilds of all levels. and lower decay for higher level guilds by 35-50% (the level multiplier drops from up to 4.5 down to 2.5).
      
      1. New formula would be something like: modified_guild_size(minimum 1) x (guild_level x 2.5 (two point five)).(corrected - forgot decimal) - this change alone reduces decay for most guilds by up to 93%)
      2. Keep It Simple - keep it transparent and easy to explain, understand, and compute.
   4. Ransack set to start at 500K per day or at 2nd level - whichever is easier to implement. Ransack doesn't start to kick in until (500K) or (2nd level) is reached.
   5. member is not counted toward modified guild size until steps into quest, slayer area, on any guild ship, uses guild vendor, or generates renown in any form.
2. VIP's should get +10% renown - this is now in line with what Fernando stated about new benefits starting with +10% xp for VIPs that begin next patch(s.i.c. below).
3. Implement (aka ADD a)simple Provisional (two-week) guild invite - invitee does not affect guild renown. So doesn't earn renown, and isn't counted toward modified guild size. Allows guild and prospect to try each other out and see if the fit is right. changed term to provisional - Thanks Fearmaker!
4. there needs to be a new form of Global Friends List - one that acts like facebook in most basic essence. You ask someone to be on your friends list (or offer) - and can select to be public, private; to show online status - last log, show all or just one characters in account; and an easier way to talk with them in game without having to be in a guild. Once a player is on your Global Friends List - you can see any of their characters from any of their characters (can still flag yourself as "invisible" or "do not disturb" to make a character not show up in global list). This lets us do global ignore as well, for those who would use it. Selecting (or hovering over with tool tip) a Global Friend in your list and it shows you the last (visible) character they logged in as, the server, and how long ago they logged off, if they aren't online. thanks to Artos_Fabril for the improvements!
5. Guild Information Kiosk: There needs to be a better way for guilds to communicate information in-game about their guilds to the general public - including membership rules, play times and styles, recruitment status - and a way to ask for an invitation. Current methods are all out of game (compendium) and private web-sites (guildportal.com for example) both require programming knowledge (wiki style and web layout). Just have a guild information kiosk in the upper harbor and or in Korthos where players could talk to the NPC to find out more about guilds (general), guilds (specific guilds), search for a guild, message guild leader (inquiry), and apply for membership to a guild. The alternative is to add another page to the social panel that does this as well.
6. Need a replacement to fill in the void caused by the demise of guild-slotted equipment. Not a total replacement, rather something that fills the greatest void. Two new ship amenities - each with different level for different level guilds. Same buff as available from guild augment crystals - so does not stack with itself.(Again thank you to Fearmaker and Alyonna for the suggestion)
   
   • Tiny: no ship available so not applicable
   • Small: Minimum Guild Level 25
     
     • Hit Point Shrine:+10 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +40 stacking maximum SP (+80 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)
   • Medium: Minimum Guild Level 45
     
     • Hit Point Shrine: +15 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +60 stacking maximum SP (+80 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)
   • Large: Minimum Guild Level 70
     
     • Hit Point Shrine: +30 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +80 stacking maximum SP (+160 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)

add 10% boost to all earned XP for VIP accounts.

seen this firsthand (on Lammania) and in the Lamannia release notes.

Kindly Note: Large Guilds (which are the minority in both number and total membership vs total population) object to any changes from the temporary ad hoc kludged system and wish the existing temporary system made permanent.

[eris2323]

blah blah blah obfuscation

SO here is the updated and revised proposal - prioritized easiest to implement first to the most difficult last.

Eliminate Decay Altogether.

but if Turbine says no, then:

1. Revert to pre-change except for following significant changes that take away 99% of the pressure away to boot. Is fair for all guilds of all sizes of all styles of play. Booting will still occur - but not because of the system.
   
   1. instead of 30 days until inactive, change to two days (changed to two to account for weekend);
   2. remove the +10 to the modified guild size in the formula, with a modified minimum guild size becoming one - no cap/limit.
   3. adjust decay to affect all guilds of all levels. and lower decay for higher level guilds by 35-50% (the level multiplier drops from up to 4.5 down to 2.5).
      
      1. New formula would be something like: modified_guild_size(minimum 1) x (guild_level x 2.5 (two point five)).(corrected - forgot decimal) - this change alone reduces decay for most guilds by up to 93%)
      2. Keep It Simple - keep it transparent and easy to explain, understand, and compute.
   4. Ransack set to start at 500K per day or at 2nd level - whichever is easier to implement. Ransack doesn't start to kick in until (500K) or (2nd level) is reached.
   5. member is not counted toward modified guild size until steps into quest, slayer area, on any guild ship, uses guild vendor, or generates renown in any form.
2. VIP's should get +10% renown - this is now in line with what Fernando stated about new benefits starting with +10% xp for VIPs that begin next patch(s.i.c. below).
3. Implement (aka ADD a)simple Provisional (two-week) guild invite - invitee does not affect guild renown. So doesn't earn renown, and isn't counted toward modified guild size. Allows guild and prospect to try each other out and see if the fit is right. changed term to provisional - Thanks Fearmaker!
4. there needs to be a new form of Global Friends List - one that acts like facebook in most basic essence. You ask someone to be on your friends list (or offer) - and can select to be public, private; to show online status - last log, show all or just one characters in account; and an easier way to talk with them in game without having to be in a guild. Once a player is on your Global Friends List - you can see any of their characters from any of their characters (can still flag yourself as "invisible" or "do not disturb" to make a character not show up in global list). This lets us do global ignore as well, for those who would use it. Selecting (or hovering over with tool tip) a Global Friend in your list and it shows you the last (visible) character they logged in as, the server, and how long ago they logged off, if they aren't online. thanks to Artos_Fabril for the improvements!
5. Guild Information Kiosk: There needs to be a better way for guilds to communicate information in-game about their guilds to the general public - including membership rules, play times and styles, recruitment status - and a way to ask for an invitation. Current methods are all out of game (compendium) and private web-sites (guildportal.com for example) both require programming knowledge (wiki style and web layout). Just have a guild information kiosk in the upper harbor and or in Korthos where players could talk to the NPC to find out more about guilds (general), guilds (specific guilds), search for a guild, message guild leader (inquiry), and apply for membership to a guild. The alternative is to add another page to the social panel that does this as well.
6. Need a replacement to fill in the void caused by the demise of guild-slotted equipment. Not a total replacement, rather something that fills the greatest void. Two new ship amenities - each with different level for different level guilds. (Again thank you to Fearmaker and Alyonna for the suggestion)
   
   • Tiny: no ship available so not applicable
   • Small: Minimum Guild Level 25
     
     • Hit Point Shrine:+10 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +40 stacking maximum SP (+80 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)
   • Medium: Minimum Guild Level 45
     
     • Hit Point Shrine: +15 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +60 stacking maximum SP (+80 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)
   • Large: Minimum Guild Level 70
     
     • Hit Point Shrine: +30 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +80 stacking maximum SP (+160 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)

seen this firsthand (on Lammania) and in the Lamannia release notes.

Kindly Note: Large Guilds (which are the minority in both number and total membership vs total population) object to any changes from the temporary ad hoc kludged system and wish the existing temporary system made permanent.[/INDENT]

Can't read it due to color, however, since it is reposted, I feel I must yet again state my extreme dislike of your system and my hope it is never implemented, as it is based on flawed data and uses obviously fake statistics.

Specifically: I have an issue with you claiming " take away 99% of the pressure away to boot" as made up and false.

Specifically: I have an issue with claiming "Is fair for all guilds of all sizes" That is for US to decide, not you.

Specifically: I have an issue with "but not because of the system" - You're going to need to remove that, you can't prove that, or claim it at all.

After that, I refuse to read any more - the colors hurt my eye, and you're just posting the same things over and over again.

Going back to the old system is not a solution at all.

I'll also add that I specifically think adding 30 stacking hit points to any character with your last proposal is over-powered for 1st level characters, I mean really. Really Overpowered.

Have you had even one person support your proposal?

[UurlockYgmeov]

extreme dislike of your

You are making this personal again.

Going back to the old system is not a solution at all.

We never left the old system - just put a well-intentioned but essentially flawed, thankfully temporary kludge into it.


Agree - that blue is horrible. Orange next time.

I'll also add that I specifically think adding 30 stacking hit points to any character with your last proposal is over-powered for 1st level characters, I mean really. Really Overpowered.

It is already in the game with guild slotted equipment, and since the same buff they wouldn't stack with existing guild slotted equipment buffs - so it is an either/or.

Essentially what is already in game but with simpler execution.

Thank you for pointing out the needed clarification. Well add and repost.