Guild Renown Changes

[Gremmlynn]

If the fixed acct size was changed from 20 to 10 a level 60 guild of 10 people or less that was previously stuck at level 60 would gain 1 level in a full year (or possibly 2 depending how close they were to 61). I fail to see how this would jeaopordize anything for Turbine.

Having people frustrated because their guild is stuck at a level while other guilds that were previously stuck can gain 10+ levels in a few months is probably a much more realistic problem to consider.

Without the data they have available I doubt very many, if any, people could extrapolate how this would be less beneficial to them. How many TP's are being spent on gold seal shrines, how many fewer would be if that change were made, etc.?

[Dandonk]

Yep and it will probably take them another couple years to note the trend and come up with a solution that doesn't make the person who has to approve it look bad for approving the last "fix" that caused the problem.

Stormreach meets real world.

You could be right, but that's why I keep posting here. In my naïvity I keep thinking this might help hurry the process along.

[Hendrik]

But why is activity only a requirement for small guilds?

I must play more to overcome decay - sure, I guess. But there's not nearly the same requirement for large guilds.

That is not fair, as admitted by Turbine, too.

Who said anything about it being only required for small, besides you? Activity is required for everyone in a guild, all guilds.

You guess you need to play/be active to overcome decay?!?!? Do you want to get renown by doing nothing? So there is your solution to overcome decay, play. *gasp!* Get some help, get your inactive guildmembers to play. Don't let them shift all the weight to you. Turbine cannot fix your guildmembers not playing or you not running anything. You can.

No matter the size of the guild, if they are not playing they are not getting renown! That is required by ALL guildmembers. If my 75ish account guild is not running anything or not playing(logging in), news flash!, they are not beating decay.

Can you please show me where Turbine has said it is not fair for people to play to overcome decay?


If you get rid of decay, guess what, if your not playing or not active, your still not advancing are you?

[Dandonk]

Who said anything about it being only required for small, besides you? Activity is required for everyone in a guild, all guilds.

You guess you need to play/be active to overcome decay?!?!? Do you want to get renown by doing nothing? So there is your solution to overcome decay, play. *gasp!* Get some help, get your inactive guildmembers to play. Don't let them shift all the weight to you. Turbine cannot fix your guildmembers not playing or you not running anything. You can.

No matter the size of the guild, if they are not playing they are not getting renown! That is required by ALL guildmembers. If my 75ish account guild is not running anything or not playing(logging in), news flash!, they are not beating decay.

That's not what I was talking about.

Your 75 account guild only needs to be around 36% as active as my guild to make up for decay. That's what I was talking about.

A large guild does not have to be nearly as active as a small guild to advance. That's what I think is inherently unfair.

Can you please show me where Turbine has said it is not fair for people to play to overcome decay?

That's not what I wrote. I wrote that Turbine said the new system was not fair. And it isn't.

If you get rid of decay, guess what, if your not playing or not active, your still not advancing are you?

Nope.

But a large guild does not have to be very active at all compared to a small guild in order to advance. THAT's what I was talking about. Please try not to twist my words.

[Artos_Fabril]

You guess you need to play/be active to overcome decay?!?!? Do you want to get renown by doing nothing? So there is your solution to overcome decay, play. *gasp!* Get some help, get your inactive guildmembers to play. Don't let them shift all the weight to you. Turbine cannot fix your guildmembers not playing or you not running anything. You can.

This is not a good argument against reducing decay. As you said yourself, even if decay were eliminated, guilds would still have to have some activity in order to advance.

I don't expect decay to be eliminated, so I don't think repeating that demand is helpful, but I still support that option because it doesn't hurt anyone and doesn't incentivize kicking people out who fit with the guild.

Telling people to "play more" or "recruit more" is not helpful either. A system should not punish guilds for accepting members, and incentivizing inclusiveness is preferable to incentivizing exclusiveness. But recruiting should not be required even when it is beneficial.

[smatt]

This is not a good argument against reducing decay. As you said yourself, even if decay were eliminated, guilds would still have to have some activity in order to advance.

I don't expect decay to be eliminated, so I don't think repeating that demand is helpful, but I still support that option because it doesn't hurt anyone and doesn't incentivize kicking people out who fit with the guild.

Telling people to "play more" or "recruit more" is not helpful either. A system should not punish guilds for accepting members, and incentivizing inclusiveness is preferable to incentivizing exclusiveness. But recruiting should not be required even when it is beneficial.

I'm confused by the bolded part of you r post.... The system isn't punishing guilds for accepting players. What it does do is REWARD guilds for being active.

I understand the plight of the small guilds.... The fact that by choosing to be small guilds they have to be far more patient to get guild levels.

I know when I was born, there was a nurse with a big neon sign that said all things in life are perfectly equal, even when we make choices that are preferential to us as individuals, we will always get what everybody else gets in equal share, even though we don't take the burdens in the same share as the others.

[Dandonk]

I understand the plight of the small guilds.... The fact that by choosing to be small guilds they have to be far more patient to get guild levels.

Not just that. We'll cap out at a lower level, given the same average activity level.

I know when I was born, there was a nurse with a big neon sign that said all things in life are perfectly equal, even when we make choices that are preferential to us as individuals, we will always get what everybody else gets in equal share, even though we don't take the burdens in the same share as the others.

This isn't life. This is a game. If games aren't somewhat fair, they generally get boring real fast.

[smatt]

Not just that. We'll cap out at a lower level, given the same average activity level.

Strangely enough, there are ways to combat that... Mnay guilds have overcome such issues.. (Without cheating)

This isn't life. This is a game. If games aren't somewhat fair, they generally get boring real fast.

Again, you want all the benefits of your choice, but none of the downsides. I understand... You may as well ask for that all you can eat deal, while only paying for the the cup of coffee.

[Dandonk]

Strangely enough, there are ways to combat that... Mnay guilds have overcome such issues.. (Without cheating)

How do I get more renown while playing the same way? And why didn't the large guilds do that, then, before?

Again, you want all the benefits of your choice, but none of the downsides. I understand... You may as well ask for that all you can eat deal, while only paying for the the cup of coffee.

Eh? Before, large guilds had it "harder", but that was bad. So it was changed. Not small guilds have it harder, but we have to live with it?

[smatt]

How do I get more renown while playing the same way? And why didn't the large guilds do that, then, before?

Recruit more players

Eh? Before, large guilds had it "harder", but that was bad. So it was changed. Not small guilds have it harder, but we have to live with it?

OK, YOU battle 140k renown decay per day..... In a guild with total active accounts of 85 or so, with no "special people" bonuses. Much easier to keep a little guil;d with 5-6-7 people playing a solid amount of time, than a guild with 85 accounts.... I think this is what you and your fellow crusader don't understand. That large guilds take some actual effort to maintain and keep active, and therefore should recieve some benefit.

All they need to do is remove the excessive ransack penalty on small guilds...

[slarden]

I'm confused by the bolded part of you r post.... The system isn't punishing guilds for accepting players. What it does do is REWARD guilds for being active.

I understand the plight of the small guilds.... The fact that by choosing to be small guilds they have to be far more patient to get guild levels.

I know when I was born, there was a nurse with a big neon sign that said all things in life are perfectly equal, even when we make choices that are preferential to us as individuals, we will always get what everybody else gets in equal share, even though we don't take the burdens in the same share as the others.

The issue is that people in small guilds have to cover 10x more decay than some other guilds so their activity counts less towards progression when it is more dificult for small guilds to progress in the first place since they have less people.

The fact is the system changed and many of us invested significant time and resources into our guild only to be told 2 years later you now have to work 10x harder than some other guilds to avoid going backwards.

There is a difference between things being not quite perfectly fair and being blatantly unfair. This is one of those blatantly unfair things that Turbine can overome rather easily - so it would be beneficial to do.

Remove decay or change the fixed account multipler from 20 to 10. Very simple and it hurts nobody.

[slarden]

Recruit more players





OK, YOU battle 140k renown decay per day..... In a guild with total active accounts of 85 or so, with no "special people" bonuses. Much easier to keep a little guil;d with 5-6-7 people playing a solid amount of time, than a guild with 85 accounts.... I think this is what you and your fellow crusader don't understand. That large guilds take some actual effort to maintain and keep active, and therefore should recieve some benefit.

All they need to do is remove the excessive ransack penalty on small guilds...

The problem is that your assumption that people in small guilds are more active is blantly false. You should also realize small guilds also take effort to maintain and kee active as well.

People in large guilds should receive no additional benefit over what people in small guilds receive because there is much more to the game than guild chat. The vast majority of social activity in this game occurs in quests not guild chat. Folks I know from large guilds know very few people in their guilds.

[Dandonk]

Recruit more players

Why is that OK to force on me?

OK, YOU battle 140k renown decay per day..... In a guild with total active accounts of 85 or so, with no "special people" bonuses. Much easier to keep a little guil;d with 5-6-7 people playing a solid amount of time, than a guild with 85 accounts.... I think this is what you and your fellow crusader don't understand. That large guilds take some actual effort to maintain and keep active, and therefore should recieve some benefit.

All they need to do is remove the excessive ransack penalty on small guilds...

Math says it shouldn't have been that hard - if you played enough. Which is what people are telling me to do now.

[smatt]

Why is that OK to force on me?

Nobody is forcing you do to do anything. YOU are choosing to keep your guild small, and therefore SHOULD have live with the downsides of that decision, jsut as you gain from your perceived benefits.

Math says it shouldn't have been that hard - if you played enough. Which is what people are telling me to do now.

See above.


This isn't going anywhere... You want a system where you get all the benefits of everything you want, and never any downsides. You want the cake for free.... Because it's fair....


I disagree....

See you in about 500 more posts

[Hendrik]

That's not what I was talking about.

Your 75 account guild only needs to be around 36% as active as my guild to make up for decay. That's what I was talking about.

A large guild does not have to be nearly as active as a small guild to advance. That's what I think is inherently unfair.




That's not what I wrote. I wrote that Turbine said the new system was not fair. And it isn't.





Nope.

But a large guild does not have to be very active at all compared to a small guild in order to advance. THAT's what I was talking about. Please try not to twist my words.

Yet you have to be active, read playing, to get renown.

Your guild is not active nor are they running things, by your own admission. You cannot overcome ANY decay until YOU fix that part oif the equation.

Get active, run things. Get your guildmates to play and be active and you will overcome decay. Any changes to renown will not change the fact your are not active and you are not running things. Change decay all you want, if your not active nor running things you still cant overcome decay - 25 account, 50 accounts, 100 accounts, does not mater. If you do not have enough people questing you dont get the renown.

If my guild was not active nor running things we would not overcome decay, no matter the size.

Fix your inactivity problem first. Then let's talk about decay. Until you do that you have no chance to overcome decay.

[Dandonk]

Nobody is forcing you do to do anything. YOU are choosing to keep your guild small, and therefore SHOULD have live with the downsides of that decision, jsut as you gain from your perceived benefits.

Ah, so small guilds deserve less. I see.

Well, Turbine's original vision and Vargouille's "recent" post begs to differ.

This isn't going anywhere... You want a system where you get all the benefits of everything you want, and never any downsides. You want the cake for free.... Because it's fair....

No. I want a system where social choices do not influence character benefits. That seems fair to me. And that was part of the original design and vision for the guild system, and Vargouille's post seems to back it up.

[slarden]

Strangely enough, there are ways to combat that... Mnay guilds have overcome such issues.. (Without cheating)



Again, you want all the benefits of your choice, but none of the downsides. I understand... You may as well ask for that all you can eat deal, while only paying for the the cup of coffee.

All I want to do is be able to play the game without decay taking away the fun for people in our guild. I don't want the folks in my guild to have pay a ridiculously high decay tax that larger guilds don't have to pay.

The folks from large guilds were complaining vehemently when there was a very slight advantage in favor of small guilds due to a poorly designed math formula. The new system is significantly more unfair but tilted in favor of the large guilds. I don't think there is a problem with us raising the issue. With an overwhelming majority large guilds asked for the elimnation of decay. Instead they got a system that grossly favors large guilds and the same people that wanted to get rid of decay now like a system where it is easy to take vets from small guilds.

We are asking for the same, an elimination of decay, or at a minimum a change in the new formula from 20 accounts to 10 accounts. The request is reasonable considering large guilds put petitions in the general discussion area with great frequency to make their point. We haven't started that yet, but it will be coming at some point if there is no new developments. We need to raise awareness of the issue just as large guilds did for the last year.

Most small guilds are still oblivious to this issue - they just know decay is hard. The awareness is growing though so don't expect it to go away. Although there are a few people from small guilds that are very vocal, there have been over 100 comments from small guilds and almost all don't like the system and don't want to be forced to recruit.

[Dandonk]

Yet you have to be active, read playing, to get renown.

Your guild is not active nor are they running things, by your own admission. You cannot overcome ANY decay until YOU fix that part oif the equation.

We run some stuff, just not as much as we have done in the past. And then again, more than other times.

I don't seem why it's OK to force small guilds to have higher activity levels to get the same gain as large guilds.

The original vision, backed up by Vargouille in October, is that small guilds should not be this much worse off than large guilds. I'm still hoping Turbine will act on that.

[smatt]

Ah, so small guilds deserve less. I see.

Well, Turbine's original vision and Vargouille's "recent" post begs to differ.



No. I want a system where social choices do not influence character benefits. That seems fair to me. And that was part of the original design and vision for the guild system, and Vargouille's post seems to back it up.

Varg's psots aid nothing about the system being equal for everyone... It said the intent was not to encourage or discourage any particular guild size.

Each size and type of guild will have it's advantages and disadvantages. And yes social choices ALWAYS effect your game play and character benefits..... If you choose to push yourself and group with power gamers you will have distinct advantages within the game... I guess THAT isn't fair either.... Maybe the game should just randomly send the best loot out in the mail..... That way everything is fair ... I mean how dare those power gamers have better loot than everybody else...

If you choose to have an active guild and push your members constantly you will gain benefit... If you choose just to cruise along on auto-pilot.... Not so much....

Keep asking though, all they can do is ignore you or not...

[Dandonk]

Varg's psots aid nothing about the system being equal for everyone... It said the intent was not to encourage or discourage any particular guild size.

And the current system severely discourages small guids.

He also said the system wasn't fair in it's post-change state.