Guild Renown Changes

[jhadden30]

How is that different from what this change was made to get rid of? Why would any guild leader wanting to gain levels ever invite a casual player into their guild? Why would any active player ever join or stay with a guild that willfully increases the renown they need by having low earning casual members.

I suppose those casual players could form their own guilds, though it would take an awful lot of them for enough of their erratic play schedules to coincide on a regular enough basis to actually play with each other.

Your right, my idea probably is no different. I just figured that I would attempt to come up with an idea instead of just constantly complaining but it still leaves out the casual folk which I wasn't trying to do.

[jhadden30]

No, you just wants a system that encourages everyone to do so.

No I don't, small guilds are still in the same boat as they were before. Or an empty bus or however you want to describe it. Even with this change, smalls guilds still have to be careful with who they let in and who they don't because small guilds are exactly the same as before. Now, large guilds, can invite whoever they want because it doesn't effect their numbers anymore. So in order to advance at more than a snails pace, you are suggesting that I just mass invite anybody regardless of play style hoping that they will just go out and get renown for my benefit? If so than that's the same problem DDO had when they first implemented the guild renown system in the first place. And even now, what exactly is keeping any guild of any size from just mass recruiting and than kicking the majority of those people out if they don't feel they are pulling their weight? Losing 25% and retaining 75% of the renown they gained is still in place here.

[jhadden30]

[*]Renown ransack has been increased. Previously when a guild earned levels in a day, it would gradually reduce the renown drop rates. We’ve increased the rate so that a guild can only earn roughly 3 levels in a single day. This should prevent large guilds from completely dominating the field in terms of levels per-day.

Thanks for your participation as we work to improve our guild leveling system!

This should prevent large guilds from completely dominating the field in terms of levels per day? If anyone on here can find me 10 people that can gain 3 guild levels in a day with a guild that is past level 40 or 50 than I will stop complaining and cancel my subscription tomorrow.

MAJOR Advantage: Large guilds

Laughing stock of the DDO world: Small Guilds

[Thayion516]

Honestly guys after 1400 posts, This thread has had all it has to offer. Now we are just recycling the same arguments for the last 10 pages.

The OP from Telaro asked for feedback on 10-22-12.

Last post from a Dev was Vargouille responding to Slarden about reducing Decay on small guilds on 11-07-12.

We're all for new ideas and brainstorming solutions (truly, really, not just tossing buzzwords). This particular idea is problematic, because it promotes kicking players from your guild to reduce decay, which is where we were before and a situation we want to avoid.

We are certainly still considering other changes and have never said that the current changes being tested were considered any kind of final solution. We'd love to have more ideas to consider.

Ideas that are more likely to work out are ones that feel fair, promote playing together with people you like and have fun with, and where the system itself isn't promoting who you play with. We don't want to promote any particular guild size. And we don't want incentives for kicking players you enjoy playing with, or for players who might like to come and hang out or play occasionally to feel like they are hurting their guild or harming their friends in any way. If these goals seem wrong, we're willing to hear ideas on that too. This isn't an exhaustive list, but current thinking is leaning us strongly towards including these goals.

With this post it is all about the mathmatical motivation to kick casual players/friends from a guild. Asking to explain IF this idea is wrong, BUT this is the Devs lean on thinking. It talked primarily on casual players/friends being in a position to hurt the guild they are in. And that is incorrect.

Vargouille is correct in his thinking of course. More inclusion breeds a healthier gaming experiance for the majority of players, as the large majority of people who play DDO are Casual Bob and his son Mike.

This post had hardly indicated anything to do with Size, Decay, Advancement, or Levels. Its primary focus was Positive Social Inclusion.

Given the length of time iv played DDO. I've noticed extended silence on a subject indicates one of 2 things:

1) The item in question/change is WAI, and doing as the devs see fit for the overall good of DDO.

or

2) A decision has been made and they are moving forward with implementation. Coding, QC, Structure, Ect

SO i think we are locked into what is to come either way and further arguments are a waste of energy.

Just for the record, I personally am in favor of Deleting the decay system all together and using renown as a form of currency on ships and amimities so that Guild Leadership can control their own limits of a natural form of decay.

Give us the control of our own decay, and we will decide what is best for us.

But given that .. a Guild with 240 players SHOULD level faster then a guild of 6. Thats just common sense. 40 of ones players do not equal 1 of the others players. 40 = 40 and 1=1... Just the way it is.

[theslimshady]

Completely agree. Here is the irony. My small guild leveled and then we weren't getting any guild renown from chests or end rewardrs. We had to ensure we got over 10k renown so we didn't drop a level the next day and get caught in a circular loop. We had to grind untli 2am to get a 12k cushion so wouldn't drop the next day (we only needed like 10 but we always get a little extra since we sometimes seem to take bigger decay hits than others). We didn't even know about this change until we asked around to find out why we weren't getting any renown.

So things did get slightly worse for small gulds because the ransack occurs after gaining 1 level - even if that one level took 60 days to get to.

so this is worse then lots of guilds bleeding out multiple levels or getting stuck without any chance of advancing because no matter what even if its slow either way your guild keeps progressing forward

[Gremmlynn]

No I don't, small guilds are still in the same boat as they were before. Or an empty bus or however you want to describe it. Even with this change, smalls guilds still have to be careful with who they let in and who they don't because small guilds are exactly the same as before. Now, large guilds, can invite whoever they want because it doesn't effect their numbers anymore. So in order to advance at more than a snails pace, you are suggesting that I just mass invite anybody regardless of play style hoping that they will just go out and get renown for my benefit? If so than that's the same problem DDO had when they first implemented the guild renown system in the first place. And even now, what exactly is keeping any guild of any size from just mass recruiting and than kicking the majority of those people out if they don't feel they are pulling their weight? Losing 25% and retaining 75% of the renown they gained is still in place here.

Losing 100% as long as they are logging in once a month or so would go a long ways towards stopping this sort of exploitation. It still allows a guild to kick those who give them a reason to, as with the new system they don't actually lose anything, they just don't gain anything for the time that person was a member, which is reasonable IMO.

But yes, if a guild wants to reach the highest levels quickly I see no reason why they shouldn't have to go all in and earn it by keeping a large group of players contented and motivated.

[jhadden30]

But yes, if a guild wants to reach the highest levels quickly I see no reason why they shouldn't have to go all in and earn it by keeping a large group of players contented and motivated.

How is spamming general chat with recruit offers "keeping a large group of players contented and motivated"? Isn't that just blindly throwing bodies at the problem for an easy solution?

[jhadden30]

Just for the record, I personally am in favor of Deleting the decay system all together and using renown as a form of currency on ships and amimities so that Guild Leadership can control their own limits of a natural form of decay.

Give us the control of our own decay, and we will decide what is best for us.

That doesn't sound like a bad idea at all but the renown cost for these things should not be an impossible dream to acheive like how it is now.

[Thayion516]

The premise that lowering decay for small guilds will cause people to boot players is just flat out wrong.

If that is the way Turbine wants it is fine with me - but I will spend my money elsewhere. I am not going to pay money for a game that puts me at a disadvantage because I want to be in a guild with my friends.

Can i have your stuff?

[slarden]

Can i have your stuff?

I didn't say I would quit, just that I wouldn't spend any money on the game - and likely will play less.

[jhadden30]

On a totally unrelated note, I feel that I should be able to become a casual player, and yet still pack on the past lives.

Turbine, please consider making it so casual players gain 10x the exp if they only log in once a week.

I feel this will allow me, as a casual player, to compete against the power gamers.

Oh, also, I want 10x the chance of rare treasure, since I can only play once a week.

Okay.. it's not so unrelated... but this is what you sound like to me.

Nobody is implying anything of the sort.

[Gremmlynn]

How is spamming general chat with recruit offers "keeping a large group of players contented and motivated"? Isn't that just blindly throwing bodies at the problem for an easy solution?

Not really, as they tend to leave before they accomplish much if they don't find what they are looking for. Though all it really takes to keep the newest one's contented is a suggestion here and there along the lines of "well there's 3 others on also level 6, why don't you grab a couple hires and head into house P, there are 3 quest givers in the tavern just off the airship". Not a lot of work and it gets to be less as other start following the example.

[Thayion516]

I didn't say I would quit, just that I wouldn't spend any money on the game - and likely will play less.

I have not spent more then 100 bucks on this game in 3 years and own every pack. You don't have to pay money to send me your lootz through u the mail!

Hmm .. all content thru points specials and grinding TP... Maybe i play too much?

Maybe I can join your guild Slarden! I'll be your 3rd wheel and keep u afloat during this hurricane!

[theslimshady]

I have not spent more then 100 bucks on this game in 3 years and own every pack. You don't have to pay money to send me your lootz through u the mail!

Hmm .. all content thru points specials and grinding TP... Maybe i play too much?

Maybe I can join your guild Slarden! I'll be your 3rd wheel and keep u afloat during this hurricane!

from what i gathered i dont beleave he is losing renown he is just not getting as much as a large guild so he feels at a disadvantage not many understand this debate from the large guild point based on hitting a wall then going backwards and they debate based on what in the best interest of there guild which is understandable but i beleave this new system had addressed the first issue of that all guilds are going forward now they can start evening up the way guilds level up

[Gremmlynn]

The premise that lowering decay for small guilds will cause people to boot players is just flat out wrong.

If that is the way Turbine wants it is fine with me - but I will spend my money elsewhere. I am not going to pay money for a game that puts me at a disadvantage because I want to be in a guild with my friends.

I'm in a guild with my friends, actually that's where I made them, and that doesn't put me at a disadvantage.

[Gremmlynn]

I didn't say I would quit, just that I wouldn't spend any money on the game - and likely will play less.

Join the club. After 3+ years still haven't gotten around to upgrade to premium.

[Impaqt]

Gotta say I'm feeling the irony... Over the past 2 years, the consensus was that the renown system was heavily skewed towards small highly active guilds.

I'm not saying its right or wrong. but as the leader of a "Large" guild (Just over 50 accounts), my Comments and concerns regarding the system were constantly belittled by members of these small guilds.

"get rid of your casual players" they would say...

"no one has a right to earn renown" they would say....

"We work harder at it so we deserve it" they would say.......

I must say I'm rather enjoying the reversal of roles right now.....

That being said, the system is still broken. Turbine has been clear that this is a "Test" and nothing is final.

I'm not sure it really matters though because I dont know that turbine cares to correct the huge glaring flaw in the system.

That being you simply cannot base Renown accumulation of random drops and luck and have decay based on any sort of hard formula.

Thats where the system went wrong on day one. that is what is still wrong with the system. Until that is fixed, any form of "balance" is impossible to achieve.

[Missing_Minds]

That being you simply cannot base Renown accumulation of random drops and luck and have decay based on any sort of hard formula.

Agreed. That is like working on commission. No guarantee of progress.

A person going to work every day (aka running quests) is going to be known and gain enough renown to stave off decay to keep status quo. Aka "meets expectations".
A person who does brilliant work (aka gets renown drops) will "exceed expectations" to further advance.

Quite frankly, drop decay all together, and amplify up the amount of renown required dramatically.
If you have a store bought ship, you keep it. If it is a plat bought ship, you get downgraded.
If you have timed up store bought hooks? You keep that ship until the the hooks have all timed out at which point you back to your actual ship you are at.
Guild doesn't do anything for X years and then you come back? You are right where you left off.

Small guilds will always be able to advance just like large guilds. All it would do is favor faster growth with large guilds, even with a limit of maxed out levels per day.

[Gremmlynn]

Agreed. That is like working on commission. No guarantee of progress.

A person going to work every day (aka running quests) is going to be known and gain enough renown to stave off decay to keep status quo. Aka "meets expectations".
A person who does brilliant work (aka gets renown drops) will "exceed expectations" to further advance.

Quite frankly, drop decay all together, and amplify up the amount of renown required dramatically.
If you have a store bought ship, you keep it. If it is a plat bought ship, you get downgraded.
If you have timed up store bought hooks? You keep that ship until the the hooks have all timed out at which point you back to your actual ship you are at.
Guild doesn't do anything for X years and then you come back? You are right where you left off.

Small guilds will always be able to advance just like large guilds. All it would do is favor faster growth with large guilds, even with a limit of maxed out levels per day.

Sounds good to me.

[Tshober]

Agreed. That is like working on commission. No guarantee of progress.

A person going to work every day (aka running quests) is going to be known and gain enough renown to stave off decay to keep status quo. Aka "meets expectations".
A person who does brilliant work (aka gets renown drops) will "exceed expectations" to further advance.

Quite frankly, drop decay all together, and amplify up the amount of renown required dramatically.
If you have a store bought ship, you keep it. If it is a plat bought ship, you get downgraded.
If you have timed up store bought hooks? You keep that ship until the the hooks have all timed out at which point you back to your actual ship you are at.
Guild doesn't do anything for X years and then you come back? You are right where you left off.

Small guilds will always be able to advance just like large guilds. All it would do is favor faster growth with large guilds, even with a limit of maxed out levels per day.

And don't forget small guild bonuses! With that alone, Turbine has done more for small guilds than most MMO's do.

I could get behind that plan. As I have said probably a hundred times in this thread, eliminating decay entirely is my preferred solution. What I can't condone, and will argue vigorously against, is going back to the old decay system.