Guild Renown Changes

[Viisari]

Thanks for this clear statement! I was getting pretty tired of explaining that to some of the posters here who seem to think that helping out some guilds dooms other guilds forever.

Just because there is no agenda towards something doesn't mean there won't be unintended consequences or side-effects.

Large guilds have been whining for a long time that their players are leaving for smaller guilds because they are not advancing, these changes will completely reverse that situation. If what the large guilds have been saying is true then it should follow that people in small guilds that have stopped advancing will jump to large guilds.

Personally I don't know anyone nor have I even heard of anyone on my server who'd have left a large guild specifically because they were not gaining levels. On the other hand, I know some people who joined a large guild only because they already had all the significant buffs. Many of them later left those guilds when the smaller guilds had started getting those same buffs too.

[Tshober]

More finally, make guild decay based on activity. Only when a guild effectively stops playing should their renown start to decay.

Yes, I agree with this. But I would add, it should be based on all activity done by members of the guild, not just certain kinds of activity. If a member is grinding out levels in quests, they are active. If they are role-playing with other RP players in public zones, they are active. If they are grinding challenge tokens, they are active. If they are slaying critters in Sands and exploring at the same time, they are active. If they are whacking undead in Mabar, they are active. If they are making quest runs for favor or gear, they are active. If they are crafting, they are active. There are far more ways to be active in DDO than just looting chests.

[Chaos000]

And while I agree that real numbers would help calibrate bonuses - there are two caveats. If you say you are testing, then you won't get real numbers - a well-known problem from psychology & sociology research, especially in the case of saying the changes are temporary but modifying your guild can have long term impacts that outlast the test. Secondly, if this isn't the final system, then the calibration would be at best a temporary measure.

I agree. Small and large guilds won't start recruiting casual players if they know that the changes are temporary. By removing the incentive for a guild to not boot the existing casual players the data received removes the variable of fluctuating guild sizes during the test.

I also agree that if they do implement this as part of the final system overall guild activity should be monitored after this announcement to assess the impact before closing the door on it completely.

[eris2323]

We've given up. We are just merging with another guild. You asked for feedback and didn't even acknowledge the small guild problem.

You are not even giving them enough time to conduct a test before you give up your guild that you have worked so hard on, and spent so much money on guild renown potions.

Within 1 day of the test coming back, you have given up.

We all had to suffer for years with the same level - we hit our wall ages ago. We didn't give up - we kept playing - we kept plugging away. We've played for years with the old system.

We certainly didn't give up a day after renown went into effect.

We get that you are angry there was no immediate benefit for your small guild - we get that you are unwilling to wait to see what the new changes are - but I'm willing to bet more people will give them more time before giving up their guild just like that

[Tshober]

The mechanic or reducing renown after gaining a level is good for preventing guilds from gaining multiple levels in a day, but hurts people who gain levels slowly, and end up falling a level

It would be better if the reduced renown didn't apply unless two levels were gained

If it is actaully being applied to a guild that loses a level and then gains it back the next day, then I absoultely agree with you. Guilds should not get stuck in a loop because of this mechanism.

[Ladywolf]

We are aware that the changes have been reverted. Don't take this to mean that we are intending any long term reversal out of this change, though ultimately the long term solution may end up being different. The previously stated goals remain the same for now.

We're looking into possible mishaps where some guilds may have experienced extra decay as well.

Sorry for the lack of communication. Busy week last week.

Our decay went up suddenly and drastically.

[slarden]

You are not even giving them enough time to conduct a test before you give up your guild that you have worked so hard on, and spent so much money on guild renown potions.

Within 1 day of the test coming back, you have given up.

We all had to suffer for years with the same level - we hit our wall ages ago. We didn't give up - we kept playing - we kept plugging away. We've played for years with the old system.

We certainly didn't give up a day after renown went into effect.

We get that you are angry there was no immediate benefit for your small guild - we get that you are unwilling to wait to see what the new changes are - but I'm willing to bet more people will give them more time before giving up their guild just like that

Giving up and being angry are two different things. I am not going to take elixirs under a system where large guilds have an easy button and we have to work even harder. Just because I don't like the change doesn't mean I am angry - I am not. Our guild took elixirs because having a real life friend guild appealed to us, but nobody in the guild wants to continue down that road under a system that is obviously designed to benefit only big guilds. Thanks but no thanks.

[eris2323]

Giving up and being angry are two different things. I am not going to take elixirs under a system where large guilds have an easy button and we have to work even harder. Just because I don't like the change doesn't mean I am angry - I am not. Our guild took elixirs because having a real life friend guild appealed to us, but nobody in the guild wants to continue down that road under a system that is obviously designed to benefit only big guilds. Thanks but no thanks.

Now you know how we've felt for years

[eris2323]

Not really, the system was easier for big guilds before and after the change, but now it is by a much larger margin. Big guilds always had an easy time getting to level 50-60 and some stalled there while most small guilds never even reach 50. Many are disbanded due the high decay and renown requirements for small guilds.

Too much emphasis was put on the <1% of small guilds that reached level 90+ and the other 99%+ was ignored.

I don't think there is really a good comparison.

I still think you should wait to hear what the other changes are before you merge guilds, and give up your dream of a small guild.

Seems a little hasty to give up during a test which does not actually harm you.

[Tshober]

Personally I don't know anyone nor have I even heard of anyone on my server who'd have left a large guild specifically because they were not gaining levels.

This happened quite a bit to my guild when we stopped gaining levels. About half of those who left due to decay went to smaller guilds and half went to other large guilds. In all cases they went to guilds that were already higher level and had made it clear they would not take any casual players or new players. Those who left would tell me that they loved the guild and would like to stay but they just could not stand the decay. Some had been with the guild for years. We dropped down 3 levels and stagnated again at the lower level (60). A few of those who left eventually came back to us after finding they did not like the higher level guild. We still have a great guild, we are just lower level and more casual than I wanted us to be.

[ninjadwarf_uk]

What I would consider a small guild should not really have a problem with levelling, the problem is that a lot of people have "Guilds" that are not actually big enough to fulfil the intent of guilds.

A 6 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party
A 10 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party with reserves
A 20 active player guild is a very small guild, you've a realistic chance of finding at least a handful of people on at peak times.
A 30-40 active player guild is a small guild

The idea behind guilds is that when you log on you will find others online and can mutually support, advise and play with each other. It's not to get your static party ship buffs, it's not to hang around with your close friends (that's why there is a friends list)

These tiny "Guilds" do not add value to the game and community as a whole, they are just ways for small groups to isolate themselves from the larger community. As they are a hindrance to the social game I see no reason why they should be encouraged with bonuses to allow them to level as fast as larger guilds.

[Dandonk]

These tiny "Guilds" do not add value to the game and community as a whole, they are just ways for small groups to isolate themselves from the larger community. As they are a hindrance to the social game I see no reason why they should be encouraged with bonuses to allow them to level as fast as larger guilds.

Eh, wut? I pug a lot in my small guiod, thank you very much. Please do not tell me how I should organize my friend guild.

You might as well say large guilds do not add to the server, since they likely pug less due to having more guildies to choose from?*

* which is (just as) silly

[Tiamas]

Just a little addition to the big guild vs small guild. As far as I know the best way to level a guild before the changes was 6 man all active guild. This of course needs 6 players (or some multiboxers) that a really active. As soon as only a few of those take a break, the maths wont favor their leveling style anymore. Large guilds were slower, but when there are 50 active accounts and 2 take a break for a month, thats not a big deal at all. But yes, large guilds still had a harder way leveling up.

Now the current changes come in (not talking about the renown cut, doesnt really matter which size you are here). Basically for small guilds nothing changes. They are still very good to level. But for large ones it gets quite a bit easier. So, why exactly do small guilds have a problem? You still have the same possibility to level as before, where it was the best available. And only because the big ones have a better one now (theoretically) small guilds cant level anymore? Quite silly. And yes I am in a rather small guild myself. I admit that the "value" of being in a highlevel guild (which currently is a sign of at least decent players most of the time) will change under this system. Large "trash" guilds might rise. But still small guilds can level up with a decent speed. I can accept concerns or different opinions on what a high guild level should mean or provide ("Skilled players inside" vs "We got all shipbuffs and are happy to share with everyone" vs "mine is longer than yours"). But I cant accept complains that leveling a small guild is unfair/impossible/whatever with the new system.

Of course I prefer a system where everyone has exactly the same chances of advancing. But with so many factors (amount of players and mainly playstyle) its superhard to find a formula that works for all combinations. For me the original system works quite well, the biggest concern was the decay generated by very casual players (weekend players etc) and thus the "need" to kick them at a certain point when your guild wouldnt advance anymore with them. It was suggested already in this thread somewhere but I think that a decay calculation based on the active players since the last decay hit (so basically within 24h) would solve most of the problems. Maybe a more dynamic solution for the renown bonus would help too, but I dont have a good idea how to change this currently.

[eris2323]

What I would consider a small guild should not really have a problem with levelling, the problem is that a lot of people have "Guilds" that are not actually big enough to fulfil the intent of guilds.

A 6 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party
A 10 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party with reserves
A 20 active player guild is a very small guild, you've a realistic chance of finding at least a handful of people on at peak times.
A 30-40 active player guild is a small guild

The idea behind guilds is that when you log on you will find others online and can mutually support, advise and play with each other. It's not to get your static party ship buffs, it's not to hang around with your close friends (that's why there is a friends list)

These tiny "Guilds" do not add value to the game and community as a whole, they are just ways for small groups to isolate themselves from the larger community. As they are a hindrance to the social game I see no reason why they should be encouraged with bonuses to allow them to level as fast as larger guilds.

Fully Agreed and +1

[Tiamas]

And on the 8th day, god said:

The idea behind guilds is that when you log on you will find others online and can mutually support, advise and play with each other. It's not to get your static party ship buffs, it's not to hang around with your close friends (that's why there is a friends list)

Oh wait, he didnt. And as long as no greater being comes to earths and says so or some physicists do some elementary research and find a particle that makes your opinion a law of nature, the idea of guilds is that what people do with it. Its a game option. Nothing more and nothing less. As always: Don't tell others how they have to experience the game.

[MysticElaine]

What I would consider a small guild should not really have a problem with levelling, the problem is that a lot of people have "Guilds" that are not actually big enough to fulfil the intent of guilds.

A 6 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party
A 10 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party with reserves
A 20 active player guild is a very small guild, you've a realistic chance of finding at least a handful of people on at peak times.
A 30-40 active player guild is a small guild

The idea behind guilds is that when you log on you will find others online and can mutually support, advise and play with each other. It's not to get your static party ship buffs, it's not to hang around with your close friends (that's why there is a friends list)

These tiny "Guilds" do not add value to the game and community as a whole, they are just ways for small groups to isolate themselves from the larger community. As they are a hindrance to the social game I see no reason why they should be encouraged with bonuses to allow them to level as fast as larger guilds.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I was a part of a large guild and made some friends there. After a while, we started getting tired of all the bs that went on and so decided to break off and form our own guild. We are now a small guild. We are part of other groups as well, but to say we don't add any value to the game or community as a whole is just rude to say. I don't see myself or my guild mates a hindrance to the social game. Why are we not allowed to try to level our guild...and as an fyi, we have been stuck at lvl 59 for an eternity and with this new system, our decay rate actually went up by almost 200. We are casual gamers so I doubt we will make 100 any time soon.

[Tshober]

Oh wait, he didnt. And as long as some greater being comes to earths and says so or some physicists do some elementary research and find a particle that makes your opinion a law of nature, the idea of guilds is that what people do with it. Its a game option. Nothing more and nothing less. As always: Don't tell others how they have to experience the game.

Oh, I could not agree with this more. The old decay system punished you for playing the game the way you want to play it and rewarded those guilds that kicked out anyone who did not conform to a certain play-style. The new one still does that in some cases but not nearly to the degree that the old one did.

[Dirac]

[T]he idea of guilds is that what people do with it. Its a game option. Nothing more and nothing less. As always: Don't tell others how they have to experience the game.

I strongly agree with this.

[ice584]

"These tiny "Guilds" do not add value to the game and community as a whole..." "they are a hindrance to the social game..."

Whoah...hold up a sec. While I believe I agree with the overall intention you are attempting to make in your post, I must fervently disagree with the above words you chose to convey it.

As a leader of one of these "tiny guilds" I like to think my guildmates and I make positive contributions to the DDO community on a regular basis. Albeit maybe those contributions are small, please don't advocate that "tiny guilds" can't contribute.

A great example of this would be Griffon's Nest from Sarlona. I have yet to run into one of their members that wasn't competent, considerate, and helpful. I can tell you that seeing their contributions has driven my desire to ensure our guild strives to do the same.

I see no reason why they should be encouraged with bonuses to allow them to level as fast as larger guilds.

This, I believe, was the main point you are trying to make and I do 100% agree. I think there should be rewards to large guilds that are above and beyond what smaller guilds can easily achieve. I don't think smaller guilds should be given mechanisms to allow them to advance as fast as larger guilds, for then there would be no incentive to grow.

For our guild, there are things that larger guilds get which we cannot. I think it SHOULD be that way, and we are content with it.

[Tshober]

For our guild, there are things that larger guilds get which we cannot. I think it SHOULD be that way, and we are content with it.

An interesting perspective. I am the leader of a quite large guild and I feel that small and tiny guilds should be able to advance and level up like everyone else. I especially feel that no guild should be barred from advancing because they are unwilling to kick out casual/social players.