Guild Renown Changes

[Dethpayne]

It is so good to know that we have been heard and that you do care enough to try and fix this issue. As leader of Pay It Forward Sarlona, my Grand Officers and I have had many heart felt discussions about this matter and have tried several different ways to fix our problem without destroying the basis that our guild is based on. We have found that in doing so it has taken alot of the fun out of the game, people like to be rewarded for good play and not penalized for having a real life.
Thank you again for your attention in this matter, Hail Gygax!
Moonhair Guild Leader

It is gratifying to know that the Dev's are actually listening to us. I look forward to seeing if the changes work or not.

PIF Officer

[wax_on_wax_off]

Great change! I think the most important thing that needed to be done has been done - no incentive to kick players who don't "pull their weight".

Moving on from here I wonder what sort of guild level system do we want? Personally I'd like there always to be different levels, I want guild level 100 to be an accomplishment worthy of respect and I don't think that "Korthos Army" style guilds should be able to hit 100.

Perhaps a simple approach would be to increase the small and medium renown bonuses but also increase renown decay by a comparative amount.

To clarify I'm not in a level 100 guild nor is it likely that I ever will be as our guild policy doesnt prioritise renown. I'm okay with this though, I don't see any reason to hit 100, I'm perfectly happy to cheer and congratulate my friends who strive for guild level 100 and do so, it's an accomplishment and should remain so.

[Bronko]

A tentative thank you for addressing this issue.

Please consider other ways to get renown. For example, a varying amount for certain accomplishments like achieving level cap, completing an epic elite quest, completing a raid, or finishing an epic destiny. Perhaps upgrading an epic item, a green steel, an alchemical, a dragon armor. The idea would be that building effective characters and accomplishing some “renowned” signifies your guild’s success. Moreso than mindless chest farming.

Me likey. +1 for that one my dear.

[apocaladle]

This was a relatively simple change we could try make without bringing down a server, today instead of months from now. We're still happy to hear ways to manage guilds of different sizes reasonably while also not motivating guilds to kick players.

We know there's some players who have likely spent as much or more time thinking about these things as we have individually. Feel free to discuss pros and cons, such as whether or not 1000 player guilds reaching and staying at level 100 is a problem that needs solving.

you have no idea how much i love you right now (is in a 1000 player guild stuck at low 80s)

[Bronko]

Nothing directly aimed at this situation at this time. We're still looking into possible future changes. Today's change was something we could feasibly try sooner rather than later, and potentially solve one Guild issue we perceived, which was the feeling that some Guild members would need to be kicked for the good of the guild as a whole in order to advance the guild.

Exactly this. Thank you again to you and the rest of the Dev Team for addressing this issue. By itself I don't think it will completely fix the issue with renown but it goes a long way.

[lordpummel1-1]

Im sooo excited about this! About time! Im so glad the devs heard our pleas. Thank you. ~Starlissa~ Leader of For Loot and Glory/Orien

[LordPiglet]

This does nothing but reward max recruiting guilds. There's no reason for this and it's a poor move that punishes small guilds

[wax_on_wax_off]

This does nothing but reward max recruiting guilds. There's no reason for this and it's a poor move that punishes small guilds

Not true, small guilds still get their bonus renown for size.

[9Crows]

yay for turbine


no more punishment for liking people and giving them a chance to be in your guild... large guilds are great for having alot of people online to group with at any given time

to all the people who say this rewards mass recruiting ... what this rewards is players who want lots of guild members to potentialy group with

[LordPiglet]

This was a relatively simple change we could try make without bringing down a server, today instead of months from now. We're still happy to hear ways to manage guilds of different sizes reasonably while also not motivating guilds to kick players.

We know there's some players who have likely spent as much or more time thinking about these things as we have individually. Feel free to discuss pros and cons, such as whether or not 1000 player guilds reaching and staying at level 100 is a problem that needs solving.

How many of those guilds are going to be at 100, with more then enough renown to beat decay before you decide this is a problem?

[SirValentine]

This does nothing but reward max recruiting guilds. There's no reason for this and it's a poor move that punishes small guilds

Well, now it rewards TOTAL activity, rather than AVERAGE activity. Recruiting more active players will still result in faster level gain and/or higher equilibrium level than an equal number of less active players. But, yes, no there's no incentive to have anything other than a completely full guild roster.

Small guilds are not actually punished, they are objectively no worse off than before... They appear worse off RELATIVE to the big guilds, which get a huge boost.

[Susalona]

Not true, small guilds still get their bonus renown for size.

You and nearly everyone in this thread are completely missing the point. Yes, small guilds get to keep their bonus when earning renown. HOWEVER, the mathematics of this change mean the the enormous renown earning potential of large guilds has NO offset to balance them with small guilds. As of today, small guilds are in exactly the same position large, casual guilds were in yesterday.

All the devs did today was flip the inequality in guild leveling potential from large guilds to small ones. I appreciate that the devs are trying to please a very vocal portion of the player base, but this was not the way to do it. Small guilds are being punished because it will now be laughably easy for large guilds to outlevel small ones, no matter how active the small ones are. The playing field is not even now, the inequality has just been shifted.

And to answer the question Varguille posed in his post, yes I do think that large, casual guilds rocketing to 100 in a matter of weeks/months (as they are guaranteed to do, that 3 levels/day is a joke) is a problem when small active guilds will still plod along at the same glacial pace. it devalues the achievement and does not address the base issue of inequality among various guild sizes.

[CaptainSpacePony]

These changes will open it up for a LOT of abuse...

All this will do is change things where there is no benefit to having a small guild anymore, and you'll have a bunch of really large, really awful guilds.

I agree, BUT do appreciate the attempt to address a concern regarding guild management. Please continue to evaluate the system... oh and let's have Mabar and Crystal Cove generate some reknown (from the kills at least since there are no chests or end rewards).

[Susalona]

Small guilds are not actually punished, they are objectively no worse off than before... They appear worse off RELATIVE to the big guilds, which get a huge boost.

They do not appear worse off that large guilds, they ARE worse off. The difference in renown earning potential between my 16 account guild and the 100+ account guilds is staggering and the small guild bonus on renown earned is not even a drop in the bucket in comparison.

[djl]

Great change! I think the most important thing that needed to be done has been done - no incentive to kick players who don't "pull their weight".

Moving on from here I wonder what sort of guild level system do we want? Personally I'd like there always to be different levels, I want guild level 100 to be an accomplishment worthy of respect and I don't think that "Korthos Army" style guilds should be able to hit 100.

Perhaps a simple approach would be to increase the small and medium renown bonuses but also increase renown decay by a comparative amount.

To clarify I'm not in a level 100 guild nor is it likely that I ever will be as our guild policy doesnt prioritise renown. I'm okay with this though, I don't see any reason to hit 100, I'm perfectly happy to cheer and congratulate my friends who strive for guild level 100 and do so, it's an accomplishment and should remain so.

No need to increase renown decay, just further increase small bonuses. Currently, a 6 man guild functions as a 24 man guild because they get 4x the renown (300% bonus plus the base renown). That means any guild with 19 or more people will have an advantage. If, say, a 6 man guild received a 1200% bonus to renown, so that they would be functionally equivalent to a 96 person guild (which is about what most large guilds sit at currently) things would be considerably more balanced.

[Postumus]

This does nothing but reward max recruiting guilds. There's no reason for this and it's a poor move that punishes small guilds

I am in a small guild. How does this 'punish' me? How does a larger guild having an advantage in the speed of leveling 'punish' my guild?

I could be mistaken, so please explain how my guild is worse off today than it was yesterday? Because giving a break to someone else <> punishing me.

[9Crows]

alot of the responces in thread appear to be focused on large guilds abusing changes to power lvl ...


What if guilds want lots of members simply because more members is more fun ..before change they were punished for this thinking

not everyone who plays the game is in min/max mode some just play for fun

[Postumus]

How many of those guilds are going to be at 100, with more then enough renown to beat decay before you decide this is a problem?

This sounds more like envy than identifying an actual problem for small guilds. There is nothing preventing small guilds from recruiting more people if what you want to do is race up to 100.

Put your cards on the table. Are you in a guild? How large is it? What level? Now how does this changes negatively affect YOUR guild? How is YOUR guild worse off today than it was a week ago?

[sirgog]

This was a relatively simple change we could try make without bringing down a server, today instead of months from now. We're still happy to hear ways to manage guilds of different sizes reasonably while also not motivating guilds to kick players.

We know there's some players who have likely spent as much or more time thinking about these things as we have individually. Feel free to discuss pros and cons, such as whether or not 1000 player guilds reaching and staying at level 100 is a problem that needs solving.

Question: What is guild level supposed to be a measure of?

If it is supposed to be a metric to measure prestige then you don't want level 100 guilds composed of 1000 players that do not know what they are doing.

If it is supposed to be a guide to guild longevity or activity, then yes those 1000 player mass invite guilds should be able to hit 100. Ironically this would likely lead to some players inherently distrusting members of guilds of level 100 (just as on Khyber there were two guilds that for a long time were declined entry even into Shrouds in many PUGs because they had a server-wide reputation for incompetence that came from mass recruiting. Ironically one of them is now one of the best raiding guilds on the server)

If it is supposed to be a measure of average activity per player, then the previous system was the right way to do it.


My suggestion:

- Levels 1-85 measure persistence and activity. Set up renown so that every guild, with persistence, can get to 85. (Most consider 60 or so about as high as you can get with persistance now. 85 is a good cutoff as it unlocks all the airships, all the 30 resist shrines so people don't feel behind in low level content, and all the +2 stat shrines so they don't feel behind in high level content).
- Levels 86-100 are rewards for prestigious in-game accomplishments. Has your guild completed Epic Elite Battle for Eveningstar? If so, that's the sort of achievement that should push you up from the 85 level towards the 100 level.

- Level 1-85 guilds receive the present renown amounts per renown token (50 for Heroic Deeds, 1000 for Legendary Victory). Renown decay should be reduced to an amount that is manageable at these levels or conceivably even removed entirely here.
- Level 86+ guilds then get a flat reduction in per-token renown (e.g. if the reduction at 86 is 25, then a Heroic Deeds awards 25 renown and a Legendary Victory 975. At 92 it might be 600, so all renown tokens under Legendary Victory status award no renown but a Legendary awards 400). This would kick in before % multipliers.
- Then add in guaranteed drops of renown to quests and optionals you consider prestigious. These much larger renown tokens might be 5000 or even 10000+ points of renown.
- For 1-85 those bonus 'prestige tokens' would be a nice bonus but nothing more. From maybe 90 up they would be the way to get renown.


Under this system guild level would have the following meaning:
- 1-60: Newly established guild.
- 61-88: Been around a while, no real prestige as yet.
- 89-95: This guild has proven that it is active and can run a variety of challenging end-game content.
- 96-99: This guild has proven over a sustained time that it frequently runs very difficult content.
- 100: Over an extended timeframe this guild's membership has proven itself capable of beating everything DDO can throw at it.

[CaptainSpacePony]

This was a relatively simple change we could try make without bringing down a server, today instead of months from now. We're still happy to hear ways to manage guilds of different sizes reasonably while also not motivating guilds to kick players.

This was a wonderful reason to implement this (IMO) bad fix. Hopefully a better fix can be decided upon a executed down the line.

...whether or not 1000 player guilds reaching and staying at level 100 is a problem that needs solving.

I very strongly feel that is a problem. What is the point of a server with a handful of 1k player lvl 100 guilds and a spattering of others? I think it would completely reducing the role of guilds to ship buffs. Why not just make airship buffs publicly available to all characters?