Guild Renown Changes

[Dawnsfire]

Nice start... but it doenst even come close to clutting through the butter

Give us a way to distinguish characters!

Whos character belongs to what account, this in its self is a mess.

A gazelion characters without knowing who own which one. We have to keep a seperate webpage just for this and it is a pain, when it should be something we can see in-game.

This:

Nothing directly aimed at this situation at this time. We're still looking into possible future changes. Today's change was something we could feasibly try sooner rather than later, and potentially solve one Guild issue we perceived, which was the feeling that some Guild members would need to be kicked for the good of the guild as a whole in order to advance the guild.

[SirValentine]

For example, if all having a large guild does is reduce your bonuses there is no reason at all to not "mass invite" people and then boot them after a certain amount of time.

Well, yes on the mass-invite, but no to the boot. There will be no reason to boot people unless your rooster is completely full and you need to make room. You still lose 25% of the renown they earned when you boot someone.

All this will do is change things where there is no benefit to having a small guild anymore, and you'll have a bunch of really large, really awful guilds.

No guarantee they will be awful, but, yup, that's the size of it. Small guild will have to claw just as hard as now to try to make levels, and large guilds will be able to waltz to high levels easily.

[HatsuharuZ]

Thanks!

[SirValentine]

But for small guilds who as of current rules (old rules) who struggle to remain the same level or to advance, no ease for them?

Recruit, I guess.

[QueenPennyThe1st]

It is so good to know that we have been heard and that you do care enough to try and fix this issue. As leader of Pay It Forward Sarlona, my Grand Officers and I have had many heart felt discussions about this matter and have tried several different ways to fix our problem without destroying the basis that our guild is based on. We have found that in doing so it has taken alot of the fun out of the game, people like to be rewarded for good play and not penalized for having a real life.
Thank you again for your attention in this matter, Hail Gygax!
Moonhair Guild Leader

[Shmuel]

Why can you not just give us the hard numbers? What is the formula used to calculate decay? Is it some trade secret that you are planning to leverage once you figure out how to apply it to predict stock prices or future Super Bowl winners? Is it part of an otherwise classified CIA code-breaking program?

There is just no good reason to keep this stuff black-boxed. Eventually people will figure it out and post the results. By then, useful constructive comments related to it may be too late to implement.

If you just say what it was, what it is now, and what you are thinking, you might discover that some forum-folk have actually useful suggestions, which are even better when they are based on reliable data. Some of us do understand calculus, and many more probably algebra, so its not like once you post it we are gonna be like "WHOA NERD!!!! YOU USED MATHS!!!! NEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRD!!!"

[WanderingGrump]

To the Devs--Thank you for trying a change in a system that so many of us hate.

It will be interesting to see what the end result will be.

[Deadlock]

Nothing directly aimed at this situation at this time. We're still looking into possible future changes. Today's change was something we could feasibly try sooner rather than later, and potentially solve one Guild issue we perceived, which was the feeling that some Guild members would need to be kicked for the good of the guild as a whole in order to advance the guild.

This is exactly what has been happening, which has been actively discouraging the more casual and laid back guilds from recruiting.

If my calcs are correct, we'll see our renown decay drop from 20,020 per day to 3,337 per day. So it's a no-brainer. A step in the right direction and a tick in the box from everyone at FONAS on Ghallanda.

[Spoonwelder]

These numbers still seem a bit high. According to the guild renown calculator, my level 64 guild of 6 should only have 5872 decay a day and not 7340. So which number is correct?

My number should be correct - the formula is Max(guildsize,10)+10 x multiplier.

At 64 the multiplier is 367 .....ie. Max(6,10)+10=20x367=7340 you were using 16x367 which omits the effective minimum guild size of 10 in the formula.

The new formula just turns guildsize to zero thus all guilds have value of 20 and then apply the multiplier based upon level.

As noted this definitely skews things to the large guilds. Ie. the guilds who were previously punished for keeping casual players on board AND hit by not having a size bonus on renown pickup....now have an easier time of it.

I don't think this is the perfect/final solution and it doesn't seem like Turbine does either but at least it is a quick and dirty solution for now until a more complete overhaul can be programmed (read as Soon(tm)).

[Vargouille]

I know a lot of large "legitimate" guilds will greatly appreciate this change, but I think there would have been better ways to fix it that simply remove guild size from the formula.

This was a relatively simple change we could try make without bringing down a server, today instead of months from now. We're still happy to hear ways to manage guilds of different sizes reasonably while also not motivating guilds to kick players.

We know there's some players who have likely spent as much or more time thinking about these things as we have individually. Feel free to discuss pros and cons, such as whether or not 1000 player guilds reaching and staying at level 100 is a problem that needs solving.

[ArkoHighStar]

This was a relatively simple change we could try make without bringing down a server, today instead of months from now. We're still happy to hear ways to manage guilds of different sizes reasonably while also not motivating guilds to kick players.

We know there's some players who have likely spent as much or more time thinking about these things as we have individually. Feel free to discuss pros and cons, such as whether or not 1000 player guilds reaching and staying at level 100 is a problem that needs solving.

edited, as the extra stuff got edited

[Vyder]

Just get rid of decay. It feels like a second job.

[Ninety]

Instead of just posting that it's changing can you please just post what it's changing to with exact numbers

[djl]

Well, yes on the mass-invite, but no to the boot. There will be no reason to boot people unless your rooster is completely full and you need to make room. You still lose 25% of the renown they earned when you boot someone.



No guarantee they will be awful, but, yup, that's the size of it. Small guild will have to claw just as hard as now to try to make levels, and large guilds will be able to waltz to high levels easily.

But what is to keep people from doing that? Invite 50 random newbs to be renown vacuums, and then boot them all a week later. Even though you lose 25%, you still keep 75% of what they earned.

[djl]

This was a relatively simple change we could try make without bringing down a server, today instead of months from now. We're still happy to hear ways to manage guilds of different sizes reasonably while also not motivating guilds to kick players.

We know there's some players who have likely spent as much or more time thinking about these things as we have individually. Feel free to discuss pros and cons, such as whether or not 1000 player guilds reaching and staying at level 100 is a problem that needs solving.

Add additional penalties for booting people, or else the power-gamers will do exactly what I'm afraid of: mass recruit newer players to use them as renown vacuums to get up to level 100 and then kick them all once they reach their goals.

Perhaps, if you boot someone, you take a 10% penalty to your guild renown rate for 2 weeks? And the penalty would stack multiplicatively for each person you boot, resetting two weeks after the most recent person was booted?

[Kanuk]

Let me start by saying thank you for looking into guild renown as i think, in its current state, the system is flawed. However, the changes as presented so far would simply “flip the problem”. The current system (old), in my opinion favor small-medium guilds to get to high levels as the new system would favor big guilds. Sadly, i don’t have a simple answer!

As to the suggestions on the new system, recent departure can still stay in a different form. Say 5% penalty on (new) daily renown decay per departure for next 14 days. So if a guild boots say, 20 members after a mass Khortos invite, their decay doubles for next 2 weeks (in addition to 25% of each booted member renown).

Also, you may want to lower cap on guild size, if both level 55 guilds have the same renown decay, 6 member guild (all active), even with 300% bonus (which = 18 members) will not be able to hold up renown with 100 member guild (which will have 30-50 active members!). Now imagine with current cap of 1000 members, issue just gets bigger and bigger!

If you do continue with new system, you will probably need to increase by X% renown for small guilds, so they can keep up with what large guilds will now get, and small guild will probably become 1-20 members and medium 21-75. I would expect as tons of guilds with 100+ members will be the new norm, which i am not sure is better than the current norm (lots of small/medium guilds)...

Just my opinion and suggestions! Thanks again for looking into this, will try and come back next week with feedback from results!

[geoffhanna]

Nothing directly aimed at this situation at this time. We're still looking into possible future changes. Today's change was something we could feasibly try sooner rather than later, and potentially solve one Guild issue we perceived, which was the feeling that some Guild members would need to be kicked for the good of the guild as a whole in order to advance the guild.

This is a very important and welcome change. I hated - HATED - booting people.

[Tshober]

This is a very important and welcome change. I hated - HATED - booting people.

This!

So glad the devs have decided to explore other options and address the concerns many of us had about the old decay system.

Excellent news!

[Perryc]

A tentative thank you for addressing this issue.

Please consider other ways to get renown. For example, a varying amount for certain accomplishments like achieving level cap, completing an epic elite quest, completing a raid, or finishing an epic destiny. Perhaps upgrading an epic item, a green steel, an alchemical, a dragon armor. The idea would be that building effective characters and accomplishing some “renowned” signifies your guild’s success. Moreso than mindless chest farming.

Not a bad idea ... To propose a way to implement this:

• Reduce or eliminate Renown drops from chests and end rewards.
• Increase probability of Renown for each mob killed, say 10% chance*.
• Add Renown for each quest completion, say 3% of base XP*.
• Add Renown for each quest optional, say 5% of base XP*.

*The actual amount of Renown can be increased based on a handful of factors including guild size, number of completions (more is less), first time difficulty or bravery bonus, quest length, Renown bonus weekends, etc. This would have the added benefit of addressing the issue of Renown loss during events like the Cove that award XP.

Other sources of Renown, such as those Anthios888 propsed could be included as one time bonuses.

To address the idea of Renown Ransack (e.g. a guild that gains Renown too quickly), a modifier could be introduced that reduces the amount of Renown earned by a proportional percentage amount. The higher the amount of ransack, the higher the modifier. As ransack diminishes over time, the modifier reduces as well.

Bottom line: there would be more incentive to run more/different quests, do more in each quest, and complete quests on harder difficulties.

[Bronko]

Greetings! We are putting forth modifications currently trying out some temporary adjustments to the Guild Renown system and monitoring the outcome and feedback this week. The intent is to address concerns from guilds and guild leaders regarding the impact of optimizing guild size in order to gain or maintain guild levels. We’ll be making additional balance changes that we think you and your guildmates will appreciate, but for now we have applied the changes without downtime. As of today, you will notice two changes to your renown rates:

1. Renown decay no longer takes guild size into account. This should ease the pressure for guild leaders to “kick” members from the guild to offset daily renown decay rates. Renown decay now only takes a guild’s level into consideration rather than its size.
2. Renown ransack has been increased. Previously when a guild earned levels in a day, it would gradually reduce the renown drop rates. We’ve increased the rate so that a guild can only earn roughly 3 levels in a single day. This should prevent large guilds from completely dominating the field in terms of levels per-day.

There are some balance Pros and Cons to this method, but we’d like guilds to give us feedback about their experiences using the new settings this week. If players like the settings, or feel it is workable with minor tweaks, then we are ready to keep them! If players find the changes make matters worse, then we are scheduled to revert them. So this week, we encourage guild leaders/members to use this thread to give us feedback about how the changes are impacting your guild leveling dynamics. Important feedback for us is points where frustration has eased (or increased). Thanks for your participation as we work to improve our guild leveling system!

I will reserve judgment until I see the medium and long-term effects, but I cannot thank you enough for addressing the issue. The renown system has been a real sore point for me over the past several months.

And I will certainly post any constructive feedback (positive or negative) once a bit of time has lapsed and I've had a chance to evaluate the effect these changes are having on my guild.