Guild Renown Changes

[slarden]

Agreed. That is like working on commission. No guarantee of progress.

A person going to work every day (aka running quests) is going to be known and gain enough renown to stave off decay to keep status quo. Aka "meets expectations".
A person who does brilliant work (aka gets renown drops) will "exceed expectations" to further advance.

Quite frankly, drop decay all together, and amplify up the amount of renown required dramatically.
If you have a store bought ship, you keep it. If it is a plat bought ship, you get downgraded.
If you have timed up store bought hooks? You keep that ship until the the hooks have all timed out at which point you back to your actual ship you are at.
Guild doesn't do anything for X years and then you come back? You are right where you left off.

Small guilds will always be able to advance just like large guilds. All it would do is favor faster growth with large guilds, even with a limit of maxed out levels per day.

This is effectively the same approach I've been advocating which is that small gulids would need more renown / account to level up but would be on equal footing with regard to decay which is punitive. If decay is eliminated completely that is fine with me. Even an 80% reduction in decay would be enough to prevent most guilds from stalling before they hit level 85.

[Tshober]

Quite frankly, drop decay all together, and amplify up the amount of renown required dramatically.
If you have a store bought ship, you keep it. If it is a plat bought ship, you get downgraded.
If you have timed up store bought hooks? You keep that ship until the the hooks have all timed out at which point you back to your actual ship you are at.
Guild doesn't do anything for X years and then you come back? You are right where you left off.

Small guilds will always be able to advance just like large guilds. All it would do is favor faster growth with large guilds, even with a limit of maxed out levels per day.

I proposed a very similar plan here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=385226

My plan also addressed the issue of mass inviting and then later mass kicking to get a high level guild all to yourself. And it also included stuff for guilds to do after they hit 100.

Please keep in mind that the plan was posted before the recent change. So the changes proposed are versus the old decay system.

[slarden]

I proposed a very similar plan here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=385226

My plan also addressed the issue of mass inviting and then later mass kicking to get a high level guild all to yourself. And it also included stuff for guilds to do after they hit 100.

Please keep in mind that the plan was posted before the recent change. So the changes proposed are versus the old decay system.

This is not a bad plan either. It's interesting how in this thread you pushed for the removal of the small guild bonus if decay is removed, but you did not do so in your other thread.

Many of the plans in this thread have proposed the same thing:

1) remove decay
2) leave the system much as it is now

I am not sure why Turbine thinks removing decay is a bad thing.

[jhadden30]

Not really, as they tend to leave before they accomplish much if they don't find what they are looking for. Though all it really takes to keep the newest one's contented is a suggestion here and there along the lines of "well there's 3 others on also level 6, why don't you grab a couple hires and head into house P, there are 3 quest givers in the tavern just off the airship". Not a lot of work and it gets to be less as other start following the example.

Sure it is because guilds that do this are thinking the exact same thing that I was talking about it my previous post. If they stay and get renown than great, if not than oh well, we'll just keep recruiting to make up for the people that don't stay. How does this system not promote and favor large guilds. Nobody can give a straight answer because the only answer their is is that it does promote and favor large guilds. Its just killing the naysayers to admit it. Thanks for the advice on how to keep people in my guild, I'll consider your advice when people are leaving my guild to join a large guild because its more attractive to some people to be in a large high level guild knowing full well that they did nothing to contribute to the success of said guild, only for the sole benefit of having a bigger ship, better buffs and a larger pool of people to quest with.

[Tshober]

It's interesting how in this thread you pushed for the removal of the small guild bonus if decay is removed, but you did not do so in your other thread.

I think you have me confused with another poster. I did not push for removing small guild bonuses in this thread or anywhere. In fact, I stated that I was good with INCREASING the small guild bonuses, if that was needed to keep small and tiny guilds viable.

[Tshober]

How does this system not promote and favor large guilds. Nobody can give a straight answer because the only answer their is is that it does promote and favor large guilds. Its just killing the naysayers to admit it.

LOL. I have been very clear about this. I stated several times that the new decay system always rewards inviting, and never rewards (only punishes) kicking. And a member of a tiny guild argued for page after page that I was wrong about that!

[Impaqt]

Sure it is because guilds that do this are thinking the exact same thing that I was talking about it my previous post. If they stay and get renown than great, if not than oh well, we'll just keep recruiting to make up for the people that don't stay. How does this system not promote and favor large guilds. Nobody can give a straight answer because the only answer their is is that it does promote and favor large guilds. Its just killing the naysayers to admit it. Thanks for the advice on how to keep people in my guild, I'll consider your advice when people are leaving my guild to join a large guild because its more attractive to some people to be in a large high level guild knowing full well that they did nothing to contribute to the success of said guild, only for the sole benefit of having a bigger ship, better buffs and a larger pool of people to quest with.

I dont see anyone claiming the system currently being tested doesnt favor large guilds. Its blatantly clear that it does....

It was also blatant that the previous system favored small guilds.

It also SHOULD be clear than theres a LOT more to being in a guild than its level and ship.

a guild that recruits like crazy, hits 100, then boots everyone is NOT going to be very popular.....

if you have guildies leaving your "Small" guild because large guilds can level faster right now, they were not very good guildies to begin with..

[slarden]

LOL. I have been very clear about this. I stated several times that the new decay system always rewards inviting, and never rewards (only punishes) kicking. And a member of a tiny guild argued for page after page that I was wrong about that!

I completely agree it favors large guilds. I just acknowledged the obvious which is that if a large guild at the 1000 character limited wanted to level faster, they will continue to remove less active people and replace those folks with more active people. The test system still rewards that behavior and as a side benefit, the large guild gained net renown for the time the kicked member was actually in the guild.

A guild of 200 accounts at the 1000 character limit that was previously stalled at 60 will now stall at 93. If that guild wants to level beyond 93 they will need to boot less active people and replace those folks with more active people.

I never disagreed that the new system is highly advantageous to large guilds.

[TrinityTurtle]

I dont see anyone claiming the system currently being tested doesnt favor large guilds. Its blatantly clear that it does....

It was also blatant that the previous system favored small guilds.

It also SHOULD be clear than theres a LOT more to being in a guild than its level and ship.

a guild that recruits like crazy, hits 100, then boots everyone is NOT going to be very popular.....

if you have guildies leaving your "Small" guild because large guilds can level faster right now, they were not very good guildies to begin with..

I completely agree with you about their being more to guilds than the numbers. Also, if a large guild recruits like crazy to get to 100, under the current system, there is no reason to boot anyone. I don't see them dumping thier player base under this new renown system, but so many people seem to be sure it will happen. The reason it happened before was the levels were unsustainable under the old renown system, but now they will be. So the mega guilds where there are always players on and plenty of people to group with will be able to do their thing, and the small guilds will be able to continue on as before. I'm in a small, 9 person guild, and it hasn't changed anything for us, other than we are able to accept people if we choose without penalty. Same for large guilds

If your guildies were only in your small guild to max out the numbers and get the rewards asap vs. being in a small guild where they all know each others names and want to play together, they weren't good guildmates. You aren't losing anything when they leave for the bigger guilds, and have room to find people who are actually worth having as freinds and keep your small guild culture. It's all in how you look at it really.

I think the guild change is great personally, and would love to see people settle down and do their own thing, whether it's big or small, and quit worrying so much what the other players have versus just working on their own things.

[slarden]

I dont see anyone claiming the system currently being tested doesnt favor large guilds. Its blatantly clear that it does....

It was also blatant that the previous system favored small guilds.

It also SHOULD be clear than theres a LOT more to being in a guild than its level and ship.

a guild that recruits like crazy, hits 100, then boots everyone is NOT going to be very popular.....

if you have guildies leaving your "Small" guild because large guilds can level faster right now, they were not very good guildies to begin with..

That's all easy to say, but the large guilds that felt disadvantaged didn't see it that way until the system was changed to it's current state.

When you spend two years buliding up a guild by always taking guild renown instead of a vendor item, taking guild elixirs and choosing high renown options over lower renown options - a few things come to mind immediately:

1) I played by the rules and always focused on renown and now the rules were changed on me
2) It's not worth the grind being in a small guild because I am spending real life $ for elixirs, give up 2k plat per quest by taking renown instead of vendor trash and the system is now rigged against small guilds

For a small guild that already made 85 or higher - this is not as big of deal because they accomplished their goal. But for those of that were working towards that and playing by Turbine's rules, it's hard to see the benefit of trying to buld a small guild when I can simply join a large guild 10 levels below me and get there much easier without buying elxirs and without choosing renown as an end reward.

For me, I never played any MMO except DDO and only started because my friends played. Now I am being told that if I want to be in a small guild with my friends, that is fine, but the price I pay is a daily decay tax 9x more than I would be if I was in a large guild. That is a penalty, not an additional leveling requirement. That is also true for the guilds I know of that consist of husband/wife/1+ teen kids. There are safety reasons why the may want to be in a small guild and now they have to pay a higher decay tax/account to do that.

Of course people are going to leave small guilds because they don't want to be the only one that has to grind, and it won't be a positive experience for many people.

[Impaqt]

That's all easy to say, but the large guilds that felt disadvantaged didn't see it that way until the system was changed to it's current state.

That makes absolutely no sense. I've read and participated in many threads over the past 2 years to the contrary.

[slarden]

That makes absolutely no sense. I've read and participated in many threads over the past 2 years to the contrary.

I was responding to this

It also SHOULD be clear than theres a LOT more to being in a guild than its level and ship.

Large guilds were booting people because they wanted a higher guild level and the ship, ameneties that come with it. All of a sudden this should be a non-issue for small guilds?

The issue I always heard from large guilds is that they were stuck at a level. That basically means getting a higher level and thus a bigger ship was always an important factor.

So this comment should make more sense now: That's all easy to say, but the large guilds that felt disadvantaged didn't see it that way until the system was changed to it's current state.

As for poularity I didn't see booting members making any of the large guilds unpopular. The main reputation issue that some large guilds struggle with on Sarlona has to do more with bad experiences with other people from the guild. I always think it is unfair when I hear the party leader say - "someone wants to get in from guild "X" does anyone know the person?" If nobody gives a thumbs up it is an auto-reject. I would never do this myself, but it happens. I never heard anyone say Guild X dumped over 200 players last year - don't let them in.

I would never grow a guild and boot because I think it's selfish and wrong,. Character > Achievements

[Tshober]

Also, if a large guild recruits like crazy to get to 100, under the current system, there is no reason to boot anyone. I don't see them dumping thier player base under this new renown system, but so many people seem to be sure it will happen. The reason it happened before was the levels were unsustainable under the old renown system, but now they will be.

It may happen, some people are just spiteful and mean, but if it does happen it will NOT be because the new decay system rewarded it or did not punish it. The opponents of the new system claim that it so overwhemingly rewards large guilds that no small guild will survive. And then they also claim that guild leaders will kick all their members when they get to 100. Hello? If the system overwhelmingly favors large guilds, where does the incentive come from to kick all your members? Hint: not from the system!

The old decay system did actually reward such behaviors though. That is one of the reasons it was changed, IMO.

[Tshober]

For me, I never played any MMO except DDO and only started because my friends played. Now I am being told that if I want to be in a small guild with my friends, that is fine, but the price I pay is a daily decay tax 9x more than I would be if I was in a large guild. That is a penalty, not an additional leveling requirement. That is also true for the guilds I know of that consist of husband/wife/1+ teen kids. There are safety reasons why the may want to be in a small guild and now they have to pay a higher decay tax/account to do that.

Of course people are going to leave small guilds because they don't want to be the only one that has to grind, and it won't be a positive experience for many people.

Maybe you should try playing some more MMO's. Turbine has done more for small guilds than most MMO's do, just with the small guild bonuses alone. Your guild is thinking about Star Wars you said. Does SW have guild levels? If so, how does leveling up work there? Are small guilds able to level up just as fast as large guilds in Star Wars? I have never played that game myself but I have played enough MMO's to know that the odds are your small guild will be worse off in SW than they are DDO, relative to large guilds. But surely you have already researched that, it is such an important subject for you after all.

[Impaqt]

I was responding to this



Large guilds were booting people because they wanted a higher guild level and the ship, ameneties that come with it. All of a sudden this should be a non-issue for small guilds?

The issue I always heard from large guilds is that they were stuck at a level. That basically means getting a higher level and thus a bigger ship was always an important factor.

So this comment should make more sense now: That's all easy to say, but the large guilds that felt disadvantaged didn't see it that way until the system was changed to it's current state.

while I'm sure there were some "large" guilds out there that did indeed start booting people because of renown, I know for a fact that most simply conceded defeat and accepted the fact that they would not level past a certain plateau in the old system. This was certainly the case on Thelanis. My guild is a perfect example and I know several others that were in my exact same shoes. We refused for boot friends because of a poorly conceived system.

the "fact" that many "large guilds" were booting people for renown is simply not true. So no, it doesnt Make sense now..... So please try again to explain to me how I run my large guild.

[smatt]

My guild also didnt' boot people due to the guild level "Plateau" situation. We discussed various possible solutions, but we pretty much came to the conclusion to just ignore it. Without a major influx of very active players, or the very small chance of many of our mamembers again becoming very active we were stuck. Our decay was sittign at about 155K a day, and there simply wasn't a way for us to increase in level.

Now then, the current system has allowed us to start gaining again. The problem with the new system is it removes the check on large guilds over small ones, by removing the per account factor in the decay. That was part of the balancing to keep there from being a very large advantage in having a large membership. The problem is, finding a way to comphensate small and medium guilds, without proving yet another incentive for guilds to become smaller to take advantage of an easier leveling up situation.

[Enoach]

I think if we remove all of the SIZE issues out of the discussion we can boil it down to this:

1. The change of decay amounts did help guilds, some more than others and admittedly not guilds under the 20 size limit
2. The enhanced renown scaling that occurs when a guild levels, to artificially slow down guilds to a max of 3 levels per day Hurt. Especially with the size of the hit for just gaining a single level - putting some guilds into perpetual loops of gaining and losing a level for days until they could get enough renown to get over that hump.
3. The current change is but a single step and more are still needed. Many options for changing how renown decays has been given, including tying it to ship buffs or even just removing decay all together in which case a guild loses renown only when a person leaves

In all honesty debating on what a guild is or what size makes you a guild etc. is just a bunch of spitting into the wind. What we need to hear is what is Turbines next thought on helping Guilds be what they want to be, and not be making decisions on guild make up based on a System which is ancillary to the Game itself.

[Gremmlynn]

I was responding to this



Large guilds were booting people because they wanted a higher guild level and the ship, ameneties that come with it. All of a sudden this should be a non-issue for small guilds?

The issue I always heard from large guilds is that they were stuck at a level. That basically means getting a higher level and thus a bigger ship was always an important factor.

So this comment should make more sense now: That's all easy to say, but the large guilds that felt disadvantaged didn't see it that way until the system was changed to it's current state.

As for poularity I didn't see booting members making any of the large guilds unpopular. The main reputation issue that some large guilds struggle with on Sarlona has to do more with bad experiences with other people from the guild. I always think it is unfair when I hear the party leader say - "someone wants to get in from guild "X" does anyone know the person?" If nobody gives a thumbs up it is an auto-reject. I would never do this myself, but it happens. I never heard anyone say Guild X dumped over 200 players last year - don't let them in.

I would never grow a guild and boot because I think it's selfish and wrong,. Character > Achievements

For the record, I quit more than one guild when it decided levels were worth more than integrity. When I finally found a guild that didn't kick players most of the ever so precious active players would quit soon after finding out how the guild level system worked. Frankly, I was never keen on the idea of adding a guild level system to begin with as I figured it would just add drama to the game. I woefully underestimated the amount of trouble it would cause. IMO the whole system undermines the original function of guilds.

[soulaeon]

deleted

[slarden]

while I'm sure there were some "large" guilds out there that did indeed start booting people because of renown, I know for a fact that most simply conceded defeat and accepted the fact that they would not level past a certain plateau in the old system. This was certainly the case on Thelanis. My guild is a perfect example and I know several others that were in my exact same shoes. We refused for boot friends because of a poorly conceived system.

the "fact" that many "large guilds" were booting people for renown is simply not true. So no, it doesnt Make sense now..... So please try again to explain to me how I run my large guild.

My understanding is the entire reason for this change was so that large guilds would not boot casuals. Many on this thread said they booted casuals to gain levels. One person said they booted 150 and showed the math of how it benefited his guild.

So it did happen. I argued that I Believe they were booting inactives and not casual players, but others said large guilds were booting casuals. I never did so you will have to take it up with the people on this thread that said this. Others said they would boot casuals if Turbine didn't make this change permanent.

I never for one minute believed that people had the tools to know who was casual and who wasn't, but other people from large guilds disagree with that.

I believe the premise that people will start booting casuals if small guilds a reduction in decay is a severely flawed idea. It's interesting how when I concede the point that large guilds were booting casuals, there is still an argument lol.