Guild Renown Changes

[ice584]

An interesting perspective. I am the leader of a quite large guild and I feel that small and tiny guilds should be able to advance and level up like everyone else. I especially feel that no guild should be barred from advancing because they are unwilling to kick out casual/social players.

Well, I'd love to get all the cool stuff you guys get, don't get me wrong. But when I put myself in your shoes (as the leader of a large guild) I ask myself what motivation there is to grow or even just maintain a large guild...and that makes me feel that there should be things you can get which we can't.

There is definitely a balance to be found here, but so far I'm happy with it. We're currently at 64 and we're still progressing...slowly, but progress nonetheless. Every level we get is just more gravy.

[Viisari]

What I would consider a small guild should not really have a problem with levelling, the problem is that a lot of people have "Guilds" that are not actually big enough to fulfil the intent of guilds.


A 6 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party
A 10 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party with reserves
A 20 active player guild is a very small guild, you've a realistic chance of finding at least a handful of people on at peak times.
A 30-40 active player guild is a small guild

Are you being serious? If they don't "fulfill the intent of guilds" then why are the size bonuses the following:

Very Small: 1-10 players
Small: 11-25 players
Medium: 26-50 players

The idea behind guilds is that when you log on you will find others online and can mutually support, advise and play with each other. It's not to get your static party ship buffs, it's not to hang around with your close friends (that's why there is a friends list)

This is your personal opinion and nothing else. It's not supported by the guild structure of DDO nor is it supported by the wording of the guild system itself.

There is absolutely nothing in this game indicating that guilds couldn't be of whatever size they wish, in fact, the way renown bonuses are named suggest the very opposite.

Your opinion is bad, a guild is whatever its founder and the players in it want it to be.

These tiny "Guilds" do not add value to the game and community as a whole, they are just ways for small groups to isolate themselves from the larger community.

Says you. I've seen small guilds add far more value to the community than any large guilds, if anything it's the large guilds that do nothing outside their guilds because they don't really have to.

The large guilds that do tend to do a lot stuff outside their own guild are often ones with little if any leadership or actual guild activity.

As they are a hindrance to the social game I see no reason why they should be encouraged with bonuses to allow them to level as fast as larger guilds.

Please do explain how they're "a hindrance" to anything at all. Go on, I'm waiting, this should be good.

But still small guilds can level up with a decent speed.

By far the majority can't. It's only guilds like ours that can actually get past the fifties or so.

I don't think smaller guilds should be given mechanisms to allow them to advance as fast as larger guilds, for then there would be no incentive to grow.

Why should there be any incentives to grow? Didn't a dev just say they don't plan on favoring any sizes of guilds? That would mean that there shouldn't be any incentives. And do note that removing the small guild bonus would be an extremely heavy incentive to recruit more people.

[eris2323]

A great example of this would be Griffon's Nest from Sarlona. I have yet to run into one of their members that wasn't competent, considerate, and helpful. I can tell you that seeing their contributions has driven my desire to ensure our guild strives to do the same.

Why thank you - our guild is large, and social... and we try to make sure all our members share the same values.

[Tshober]

Well, I'd love to get all the cool stuff you guys get, don't get me wrong. But when I put myself in your shoes (as the leader of a large guild) I ask myself what motivation there is to grow or even just maintain a large guild...and that makes me feel that there should be things you can get which we can't.

There is definitely a balance to be found here, but so far I'm happy with it. We're currently at 61 and we're still progressing...slowly, but progress nonetheless. Every level we get is just more gravy.

All the cool stuff we get? We are level 60. We have been stuck there a long time. We got up to 63 during Build Your Guild but we dropped back down after it ended.

[Gremmlynn]

It's only for one day. As Eladrin stated this reduction has always existed in some form.

We have no goal or agenda to promote specific guild sizes.

The problem is that it is only for one day if you actually gain enough renown on that day to not decay back to your previous level. If not it tends to kick in every day as soon as you regain that level you lost to decay.

A better solution would be for gaining a level to trigger a renown reduction at some other point, say 10% of the next level, if you also hit it in that same day. That way guilds don't get stuck in a cycle of gaining a level just to lose it to decay due to renown drops slowing down, just to do it again every day.

[Gremmlynn]

What I would consider a small guild should not really have a problem with levelling, the problem is that a lot of people have "Guilds" that are not actually big enough to fulfil the intent of guilds.

A 6 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party
A 10 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party with reserves
A 20 active player guild is a very small guild, you've a realistic chance of finding at least a handful of people on at peak times.
A 30-40 active player guild is a small guild

The idea behind guilds is that when you log on you will find others online and can mutually support, advise and play with each other. It's not to get your static party ship buffs, it's not to hang around with your close friends (that's why there is a friends list)

These tiny "Guilds" do not add value to the game and community as a whole, they are just ways for small groups to isolate themselves from the larger community. As they are a hindrance to the social game I see no reason why they should be encouraged with bonuses to allow them to level as fast as larger guilds.

I agree with most of this. The exception being that small guilds are a hindrance to the social game. It's not that they are a hindrance that makes it so they really don't deserve a bonus, it's that they are pretty much non-factors in that regard that makes that the case.

[Perikeles]

I agree with most of this. The exception being that small guilds are a hindrance to the social game. It's not that they are a hindrance that makes it so they really don't deserve a bonus, it's that they are pretty much non-factors in that regard that makes that the case.

Wow, I haven't read this much bollocks being posted on this forum in a while.

You sure got a nice way to negate people who play with their friends or families and so on. Saying that people with small guilds are 'non-factors' in the game is idiotic at best and simply untrue.

[Hurryup]

My Take on the Guild Renown Changes and how it went down.

This if my fictional take on the way the guild renown changes went down. I hope you enjoy the humor.

Big Boss: What is going on with guild renown and why do we have so many customers upset about it. I’ve been looking over the financial report and we are significantly down from last year and are player base is down. What changes can we make that would make sense.

Developer 1: The customers are always complaining and we never listen to them,why are we concerned now. Developer 2: We can make changes but it will cause more problems.

Big Boss: Remind me again why we made it so the optimal number of guild members is a very active 6 member team. Wouldn’t of it been better to make the optimal number of say 100 guild members moderately active?

Developer 3: We don’t want them to get to 100. We want them to slowly creep toward level 100. The whole point of this was to get them to spend more money in the store. Developer 2: This worked well in the beginning,but now are numbers are down on guild supplies purchased from the store. Developer 1: I think it is just fine the way it is. A lot of time and effort went into the way we set up the guilds. Making changes because a few people are upset with it doesn’t make sense.

Big Boss: I am still trying to figure out why we wanted a lot of small guilds.

Developer 2: We figured with a lot of guilds they would all be racing to the top buying guild supplies. However this has changed,the race to the top is all but extinct. With most customers complacent at where there guild is. Developer 3: We figured less people would by guild store purchases in big guilds.

Big Boss: Any suggestions.

Developer 1: Leave it the way it is. Developer 2: We could eliminate the guild size renown penalty. Have the penalty be the same no matter what the size. Developer 3: Actually this will be a good idea. Guilds will start recruiting again and it will generate a lot of large guilds with more people to play with and it will help with the race to the top again hopefully with more purchased guild supplies from the store. A lot of guilds are complacent and this will stir things up a bit and create some buzz. Developer 1: This will upset all the small guilds. They will resent the fact that they will be left behind. I don’t like the idea. This gives the big guilds too big of an advantage.

Big Boss: What happens when a lot of guilds make it to 100.

Developer 1: This will be a big problem and it will eventually happen. Developer 3: We could just up the guild limit to 200 and add in new buffs and perks accordingly.

Big Boss: Great idea Developer 3 and the race to 200 will start the purchase of guild supplies again.

Big Boss: Make it so Developer #1.

[slarden]

These tiny "Guilds" do not add value to the game and community as a whole, they are just ways for small groups to isolate themselves from the larger community. As they are a hindrance to the social game I see no reason why they should be encouraged with bonuses to allow them to level as fast as larger guilds.

I disagree with you as do probably most people in DDO, however, the developers appear to agree with this based on the new system they implemented.

For now I am having fun in Mabar grouping from people from various guilds as I always do. There doesn't appear to be anyone with such a ridiculous view in the group.

[Tshober]

I agree with most of this. The exception being that small guilds are a hindrance to the social game. It's not that they are a hindrance that makes it so they really don't deserve a bonus, it's that they are pretty much non-factors in that regard that makes that the case.

I do have my own questions about why someone would want to be in a guild that can't even muster a full party for a quest...ever. But I don't think they should be barred from doing that if it is really what they want. And I also don't think they should be barred from leveling up their tiny guild because of decay. However, whether their sub-party-sized, almost solo, guild should be able to level up just as fast as a guild that has lots of people working together is another matter entirely.

The devs chose to set the min guild size to one and the max guild size to 1000 characters. I can live with those constraints. I could have lived with a min guild size of 20 and a max of 500 too. But anything much more restictive than that would probably start to make me feel too constrained. We should always strive to give people the freedon to play the game the way they want to play it. It is wrong to try to force people to conform to a particular guild size just because we like that size and think it works best. It is just as wrong to try to force people to conform to a particular play-style just because we like that style and think it works best.

[DocBenway]

These tiny "Guilds" do not add value to the game and community as a whole, they are just ways for small groups to isolate themselves from the larger community. As they are a hindrance to the social game I see no reason why they should be encouraged with bonuses to allow them to level as fast as larger guilds.

I think I'll hop onto a ghallanda character and start a 1 man guild. Lemme know in 3 weeks how much of a hindrance I am please?

[ninjadwarf_uk]

I'm sorry you feel this way. I was a part of a large guild and made some friends there. After a while, we started getting tired of all the bs that went on and so decided to break off and form our own guild. We are now a small guild. We are part of other groups as well, but to say we don't add any value to the game or community as a whole is just rude to say. I don't see myself or my guild mates a hindrance to the social game. Why are we not allowed to try to level our guild...and as an fyi, we have been stuck at lvl 59 for an eternity and with this new system, our decay rate actually went up by almost 200. We are casual gamers so I doubt we will make 100 any time soon.

Firstly I apologise to anyone who felt I was attacking them personally, I was not commenting on people, individual members of any guild and how they behave, nor am I saying any individuals are a hindrance to the game.

Firstly the reason to join a guild (not just in DDO but a guild as the original defined concept) is to find like minded people to work with, so if you are in a guild of 6 people then you're primary interaction will be with just 6 people.

Therefore I say that tiny guilds are a hindrance because it creates small closed communities rather than large open communities. If you are in a 6 man guild and spending most of your time pugging then why be in such a small guild? Why not join a larger one, as that is what your interaction pattern indicates is better suited to you?

There is no reason why people shouldn't play in smaller groups or gangs, however I feel that the rewards (levels) should be easier to obtain the more benefit the guild brings to the game socially. (Again the guild, not the individuals within the guild) and a larger guild will bring together more players and give them a support base and so being larger should make levelling easier, not harder. In addition to this I see no reason why small guilds should get additional boosts to allow them to level as fast as large guilds because they only support the few in the group, who chances are were already friends / family etc. before they guilded up and so they don't add any social benefit to the larger community. (And again to be clear I am talking about the guild as an entity / mechanism, not the people within the guild)

[Znaik]

As an officer tasked to monitor guild renown, I approve of the changes to the decay system. I like the fact that decay is not tied to accounts. Many in our guild have not had the opportunity to play as much as they would like and as a result we hit our plateau. (lv 66)
Not a terrible place to be, but discouraging to see that contributions to renown only preserve the status quo.
I know that many try hard to get as much renown as they can - evidenced by people linking legendaries in guild chat, then others trying to match them.
Real life happens...people are back at school, holiday season is closing in on us and football is on tv 4 days a week. Hard to expect that everyone could cover daily renown losses.

Obviously, large guilds will have an advantage over small guilds, but that is how fame works.(Canadian army liberated more land per soldier in WW2 than any other army but it still amounted to a pittance of what the larger, more celebrated, armies liberated)

Only been a week, but my vote is 'yea' to the changes.

[DocBenway]

...
Therefore I say that tiny guilds are a hindrance because it creates small closed communities rather than large open communities. If you are in a 6 man guild and spending most of your time pugging then why be in such a small guild? Why not join a larger one, as that is what your interaction pattern indicates is better suited to you?

/cue Cheers theme song chorus. Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name.

Our tiny small "closed" community is allied with a "bare minimum by previous posted standards" guild, and in a channel with varied officers of guilds of many sizes and interact openly with the overall community, while being assured there is the least amount of drama that the human condition allows.

We were formed long before renown existed and the principle wasn't "Let's shut ourselves off from everyone else." The founding principle was "Given the option, we would group together and help achieve each others goals over anything else, because we knew we enjoyed playing together." As folks were added, there were always pugged with a few times first, and met everyone at least once.

Our only exclusivity isn't really exclusive, as it extends to helping, grouping, socializing with folks in other guilds and the unguilded. They just happen to be people we like too, or think we might like.

I do not want to be 1/1000 and someone on a list to invite because they happen to be on. I'd rather be 1/4 (We have 21 Accounts but Life Happens) and be asked how that contract went, or if "Suzy got her first tooth." It is a welcoming feeling and does not restrict me from doing anything in game, nor does it restrict anyone from asking a guildy of mine or myself to do something. We like to know each other, not just have a name in brackets in common.

I thought your generalization unfair and hope this might provide some inside perspective as to why my guild is a family. A family that isn't a detriment, but I like to think benefits the game since I think they are awesome people.

[sdrocky]

What I would consider a small guild should not really have a problem with levelling, the problem is that a lot of people have "Guilds" that are not actually big enough to fulfil the intent of guilds.

A 6 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party
A 10 active player guild isn't a small guild, it's a party with reserves
A 20 active player guild is a very small guild, you've a realistic chance of finding at least a handful of people on at peak times.
A 30-40 active player guild is a small guild

The idea behind guilds is that when you log on you will find others online and can mutually support, advise and play with each other. It's not to get your static party ship buffs, it's not to hang around with your close friends (that's why there is a friends list)

These tiny "Guilds" do not add value to the game and community as a whole, they are just ways for small groups to isolate themselves from the larger community. As they are a hindrance to the social game I see no reason why they should be encouraged with bonuses to allow them to level as fast as larger guilds.

I find it amusing how people have the belief that they can control the rest of us because it doesn't suit their beliefs.

Amazing.

I have a small guild. (19 accounts) mainly made up of friends and family. So tell me, why are we not allowed our own guild, whatever size.

And while your at it maybe you can dictate to the world how to resolve world peace.

[eris2323]

So, what - you guys all advocate a guild of 1 should be able to reach guild level 100 as quick as a guild of 50?

A guild of 1?

Seriously?

Or maybe it's a guild of 5... or 6? or 12? Where do you draw the line? When do you decide it is a guild, and not just 1 guy trying to abuse the system? When do you decide that multiboxing doesn't make a guild?

I do not think it is fair that a 6 person guild should ever advance as quick as a 50 person guild. Ever.

That is my opinion.

The poster who has caused so much strife recently - those are his opinions. I happen to agree with him, but it is amazing how many people will jump down his throat.

[sdrocky]

Like i said. I disagree. you put in the hard yards. you get the rewards. 1 person or 20 or 200 or 1000. for a small guild to reach 100 they have to put in a lot more time than a guild of say 500.

My opinion anyway.

[DocBenway]

So, what - you guys all advocate a guild of 1 should be able to reach guild level 100 as quick as a guild of 50?

A guild of 1?

Seriously?

No one, at least not me, ever said as quick. A guild of 1 should be able to get to 100. That's it.

Decay, as it was, has the potential to completely halt the progress of guilds much larger than 10, if their players do not play more than they normally would and they put in "overtime" for renown. The current change, one that makes me happy for my good friends in a larger guild who can now make faster headway, does nothing to alleviate the artificial roadblock still there for any below size 10.

Nothing to do with time taken, everything to do with eventually being able to get there. If it is a longer road, so be it, I still wanna get to the apple tree at the cul de sac.

[eris2323]

Well, in my mind - fair is this:

In my perfect system, a small guild wouldn't get renown bonus without a minimum of 20 players.

To me, that's fair - if you can't get a group of 20 people together, you're not a guild, you're a glorified pug - and you don't really deserve any sort of bonus whatsoever.

Yes, Yes - I know - many of you will disagree.

But in my mind - it's not a guild without players. And I don't see why they should get any sort of compensation versus guilds that actually give homes to more players than a pug.

This is why the devs can't make all of us happy. Many of us disagree on what guilds should actually be.

What is clear is this - the old system encouraged large guilds to drop casual players, and social players, and anyone who doesn't power-grind daily.

The devs realized their system was driving away players, and tried to make a change.

Some people won't even let the test run without concluding that their guild is doomed, and they are looking to merge now, to throw away all their hard work... and some are willing to wait to see what happens.

After all, we suffered with renown for years now, and we waited to see what would happen.... and finally, something did.

[Bronko]

We've now re-enabled our temporary adjustments to guild renown, as specified in the first post in this thread:



These changes are anticipated to remain in-game through at least Update 16. We are continuing to look into a bug which may be causing additional decay issues, and will have more information about that when we can. Thank you!

Thanks Jerry. This is much appreciated news. Please pass my thanks along to the Dev(s) responsible for making this decision.