Guild Renown Changes

[Gremmlynn]

system still does except now it is prejudiced toward large guilds.

So your real problem is that instead of being biased towards uber active small guilds it is biased toward guilds consisting of uber active small groups with lots of casuals helping them.

I just haven't figured out if you find it bad that you have to hang out with noobs or if you find it bad that noobs can get a free ride. Though I suspect that it's both.

[Gremmlynn]

Actually, now, there is an option for those who don't make the game their life; they can join a large guild, where they are welcome, because the renown debt per day is already taken care of, based on the max amount. Every new person can only help us.

Or, they can join a small, very active guild, and enjoy the same bonus they always got.

THere was no option for large guilds with casual players before, except to remove the casuals.

And you still don't understand this?

Wow.

What seems to be consistently missed is that any system in which small casual guilds are the baseline for success is not likely to be a very good system. It will either be easy for very active small guilds and large casual guilds or just the very active small guilds if adjusted for size.

I really don't see a way of making it competitive for small casual, basically static group type guilds while not hurting the casuals who are not part of one of those static groups.

[Tshober]

What seems to be consistently missed is that any system in which small casual guilds are the baseline for success is not likely to be a very good system. It will either be easy for very active small guilds and large casual guilds or just the very active small guilds if adjusted for size.

I really don't see a way of making it competitive for small casual, basically static group type guilds while not hurting the casuals who are not part of one of those static groups.

I don't think 'competitive" is a realistic goal in the case of small AND casual guilds. I think the best that can be expected in that case is viable and able to progress.

[Charononus]

Honestly I think most of this conversation is moot until we know if Turbine is happy with the changes. They said they were going to be watching the progress of guilds when they made the changes and haven't really said anything one way or the other about it since. (yes there have been a few comments but with not much really said) Now personally I think they made the changes because they found that new players were having a hard time being guilded and thus having a hard time feeling part of a community and staying with the game. From what I've seen that problem is fixed, but I don't have Turbine's data. However if that is true Turbine might be happy with the current system and all our talk and suggestions might as well be directed to a brick wall. Honestly we need more of a dev response, but I doubt we'll get it unfortunately as this thread has turned into a pit that should have been locked and probably would have been if it wasn't an official turbine post.

[Tshober]

Honestly we need more of a dev response, but I doubt we'll get it unfortunately as this thread has turned into a pit that should have been locked and probably would have been if it wasn't an official turbine post.

My theory is they are keeping this open to keep people from starting threads on this subject in the general discussion forums.

[Gremmlynn]

I don't think 'competitive" is a realistic goal in the case of small AND casual guilds. I think the best that can be expected in that case is viable and able to progress.

I agree, but others seem to think the system can be competitive without giving an unfair advantage to anyone who doesn't play in a small casual guild.

They don't seem to realize that the more competitive the system is made, the more it will favor those who base their guilds around whatever gives them the most advantage and only the most active players will even be in the game (or a decently run guild for the most part). Though I think some just feel it's unfair that a team of many has an advantage over a "team" of one and want everything in the system reflect an average output of all members of a guild. Possibly to make a one member "guild" more viable than competitive.

[TedSandyman]

I know a lot of people complain about guild decay, but it really is the one thing that is making me so angry that I am going to quit this game. The only thing that has kept me playing is the fact that if I quit, the guild that I have spent so much time building is going to start going backwards. But here is the thing, no matter what I do anymore I cannot keep my guild moving forward. I play a lot. I have put a lot of money into this game over the years. And I didn't mind that my guild was only advancing slowly. I knew that if I kept playing eventually I would work my way up and for the longest time it was true. But that isn't the case anymore. I am stuck. And I don't feel that it is my fault. I just got through with a solo run of "The Lords of Dust" on elite. I am level 17 and the dungeon is level 18. I didn't get through but I did get all the way to the end fight. I killed three red names along the way and got three chests. Each of those chests had a heroic deeds in them. I am so angry that I don't know what to do. I was tempted to quit when the last heroic deeds appeared. And I mean quit forever. How can I keep up guild renoun when i lose 3000 points every day and when I do run quests I get garbage. There should not even be the possibility of a heroic deeds in a level 18 dungeon on elite. It is an insult to give someone a heroic deeds and to get three in a row makes me feel helpless to do anything. I ran most of the walkup quests in gianthold with a pug group a few days ago and received Heroic deeds for most of the end quest rewards. I have a small guild, I am the only active member. I don't have guildies to run quests with whenever I want. I am often waiting around for a pug that happens to be doing what I need, which is rare. If you aren't in a big guild you are at an extreme disadvantage in this game. Most of the time I end up running the wilderness areas, which give **** for renoun. And I am finally to the point that when I get a good day and make around 10000 renoun, I will have thrree bad days and lose it all. When I get to the point that my guild moves backwards, I will quit. I don't see how I can keep playing a game that punishes me for playing. I understand punishing people for not playing, but I am online and active A LOT and I feel that I am still getting punished. I can't move forward so what is the point of playing? I guess I could abandon my guild and join a bigger one, but I don't want to do that. I am proud of the fact that I got to level 54 essentially alone. I have already paid for the ship at level 55, but I can't get there. I guess I could recruit people. I have tried, but that ends up doing more harm than good. I get people who don't bring in much renoun, but add to my decay. Most good active players are in a big guild and don't want to move back to a level 54. As I type I realize two things, 1. no one is going to read all of this and 2. it is futile to continue playing.

[Nestroy]

(...) 1. no one is going to read all of this and 2. it is futile to continue playing.

At least I read it. And while it as horrendous to read the one single block, I perfectly well can understand your rant.

My guild is lv. 62. We get hit by about 10k decay / day and I do not know why, because according to wiki this only should be at about 5k. Turbine as usual does not give an answer / dime for this. We currently grow at about 50k a week - slowly but growing. We have 14 active accounts of which 7 are daily payers. I would call these players experienced casuals, with about 2 hours / day playtime each at least.

My guild will hit level in the 70ies at the current rate. We expect this. It is a sad thing. But thats the way the rules are set currently. I still feel positive at least the big guilds have got what they wanted - the easy walk in the park to lv. 100. We small guilds will not get any free lunch, at least as far as I can see currently. Perhaps we finally will get away with decay completely for all guilds, so my guild could run up to the 100k - 120k renown gain potental / week we could have. At least we could go for the best ship eventually. It still would take us about 350 weeks to eventually reach lv. 100 - so much for the better renown earning potential of small guilds due to the very big time bonus handed to them that was discussed in this thread here.

I feel sorry for your guild. I can feel for you. But as far as Turbine seems inclined at the moment, they give a s**t on what small guilds would need or would like and your only real options are to either accept your fate, grow like hell from Korthos and hope some players stick, join a big guild or leave the game.

[Nestroy]

Honestly I think most of this conversation is moot until we know if Turbine is happy with the changes. They said they were going to be watching the progress of guilds when they made the changes and haven't really said anything one way or the other about it since. (yes there have been a few comments but with not much really said) Now personally I think they made the changes because they found that new players were having a hard time being guilded and thus having a hard time feeling part of a community and staying with the game. From what I've seen that problem is fixed, but I don't have Turbine's data. However if that is true Turbine might be happy with the current system and all our talk and suggestions might as well be directed to a brick wall. Honestly we need more of a dev response, but I doubt we'll get it unfortunately as this thread has turned into a pit that should have been locked and probably would have been if it wasn't an official turbine post.

I concur with Tshober that this forum will stay open for venting or else they will see the Guild Renown and Decay back again in the general discussion. There had been the rumor (based mainly on some obscure statements even in this discussion here from our DEVs several hundreds posts past) that a complete re-work of the renown and decay system is planned. If that is the case, any further input on the Topic from the DEVs would be most welcome. Even a "get lost, we do it and we will make your wallet bleed dry for it".

[Tictman]

I don't mind working for renown but it's getting old.

One thing that really bugs me is slayers. For example you need 5k slayers in the Vale, but renown ransack sets in way before you reach that number. If you need that many slays for xp why does the renown in rare chests dry up so fast. Makes no sense at all.

[Nestroy]

I agree, but others seem to think the system can be competitive without giving an unfair advantage to anyone who doesn't play in a small casual guild.

They don't seem to realize that the more competitive the system is made, the more it will favor those who base their guilds around whatever gives them the most advantage and only the most active players will even be in the game (or a decently run guild for the most part). Though I think some just feel it's unfair that a team of many has an advantage over a "team" of one and want everything in the system reflect an average output of all members of a guild. Possibly to make a one member "guild" more viable than competitive.

Gremmlynn, the best solution for "open-to-all-but-competitive" systems still is a system where everybody might get the best from the benefits eventually and to have a follow-up high-end mechanic where there is a repetitive ongoing competitions for some different goals (like wandering trophies) with eventual resets of the leaderboards to enable newcomers to participate. The reset would be once a month or so to give everybody enough time to prepare. I even would work these leaderboards cross-over the servers, so as to enable all guilds of a certain level to compete against each other.

In our current system this would work something like this: No decay until lv. 100 is reached. All lv. 100 guilds would get invited to participate in different Trophies like "most renown / member", "most XP / member", "most rares and optionals / member", "most newcomers helped in Korthos / existing members", "most quests on elite / member" or whatever. The trophies should be wandering (even across server boundaries) and should be some kind of special non-gamebreaking buff for showing on the guild ship. There also could be a name for each trophy that would be related to the task, e.g. the "Korthos Liberation Trophy" for the most newcomers helped (run with them - quests count).

[UurlockYgmeov]

As I type I realize two things, 1. no one is going to read all of this and 2. it is futile to continue playing.

You have been read.
There is change coming. SOON™

At least I read it. And while it as horrendous to read the one single block, I perfectly well can understand your rant.

My guild is lv. 62. We get hit by about 10k decay / day and I do not know why, because according to wiki this only should be at about 5k. Turbine as usual does not give an answer / dime for this. We currently grow at about 50k a week - slowly but growing. We have 14 active accounts of which 7 are daily payers. I would call these players experienced casuals, with about 2 hours / day playtime each at least.

My guild will hit level in the 70ies at the current rate. We expect this. It is a sad thing. But thats the way the rules are set currently. I still feel positive at least the big guilds have got what they wanted - the easy walk in the park to lv. 100. We small guilds will not get any free lunch, at least as far as I can see currently. Perhaps we finally will get away with decay completely for all guilds, so my guild could run up to the 100k - 120k renown gain potental / week we could have. At least we could go for the best ship eventually. It still would take us about 350 weeks to eventually reach lv. 100 - so much for the better renown earning potential of small guilds due to the very big time bonus handed to them that was discussed in this thread here.

I feel sorry for your guild. I can feel for you. But as far as Turbine seems inclined at the moment, they give a s**t on what small guilds would need or would like and your only real options are to either accept your fate, grow like hell from Korthos and hope some players stick, join a big guild or leave the game.

Level 62 should be ~6674 a day. submit a ticket and find out.

And yes, I also feel your pain.

I concur with Tshober that this forum will stay open for venting or else they will see the Guild Renown and Decay back again in the general discussion. There had been the rumor (based mainly on some obscure statements even in this discussion here from our DEVs several hundreds posts past) that a complete re-work of the renown and decay system is planned. If that is the case, any further input on the Topic from the DEVs would be most welcome. Even a "get lost, we do it and we will make your wallet bleed dry for it".

Change is coming. Just like winter is coming (tomorrow )

Time to go back to getting my Nerd Glaze on!

[Charononus]

I know a lot of people complain about guild decay, but it really is the one thing that is making me so angry that I am going to quit this game. The only thing that has kept me playing is the fact that if I quit, the guild that I have spent so much time building is going to start going backwards. But here is the thing, no matter what I do anymore I cannot keep my guild moving forward. I play a lot. I have put a lot of money into this game over the years. And I didn't mind that my guild was only advancing slowly. I knew that if I kept playing eventually I would work my way up and for the longest time it was true. But that isn't the case anymore. I am stuck. And I don't feel that it is my fault. I just got through with a solo run of "The Lords of Dust" on elite. I am level 17 and the dungeon is level 18. I didn't get through but I did get all the way to the end fight. I killed three red names along the way and got three chests. Each of those chests had a heroic deeds in them. I am so angry that I don't know what to do. I was tempted to quit when the last heroic deeds appeared. And I mean quit forever. How can I keep up guild renoun when i lose 3000 points every day and when I do run quests I get garbage. There should not even be the possibility of a heroic deeds in a level 18 dungeon on elite. It is an insult to give someone a heroic deeds and to get three in a row makes me feel helpless to do anything. I ran most of the walkup quests in gianthold with a pug group a few days ago and received Heroic deeds for most of the end quest rewards. I have a small guild, I am the only active member. I don't have guildies to run quests with whenever I want. I am often waiting around for a pug that happens to be doing what I need, which is rare. If you aren't in a big guild you are at an extreme disadvantage in this game. Most of the time I end up running the wilderness areas, which give **** for renoun. And I am finally to the point that when I get a good day and make around 10000 renoun, I will have thrree bad days and lose it all. When I get to the point that my guild moves backwards, I will quit. I don't see how I can keep playing a game that punishes me for playing. I understand punishing people for not playing, but I am online and active A LOT and I feel that I am still getting punished. I can't move forward so what is the point of playing? I guess I could abandon my guild and join a bigger one, but I don't want to do that. I am proud of the fact that I got to level 54 essentially alone. I have already paid for the ship at level 55, but I can't get there. I guess I could recruit people. I have tried, but that ends up doing more harm than good. I get people who don't bring in much renoun, but add to my decay. Most good active players are in a big guild and don't want to move back to a level 54. As I type I realize two things, 1. no one is going to read all of this and 2. it is futile to continue playing.

I read it, and this part is no longer true, as of last oct I think it was adding a member does not add 1 extra point of decay, decay is now set by guild level.

[Tychagara]

i know a lot of people complain about guild decay, but it really is the one thing that is making me so angry that i am going to quit this game. The only thing that has kept me playing is the fact that if i quit, the guild that i have spent so much time building is going to start going backwards. But here is the thing, no matter what i do anymore i cannot keep my guild moving forward. I play a lot. I have put a lot of money into this game over the years. And i didn't mind that my guild was only advancing slowly. I knew that if i kept playing eventually i would work my way up and for the longest time it was true. But that isn't the case anymore. I am stuck. And i don't feel that it is my fault. I just got through with a solo run of "the lords of dust" on elite. I am level 17 and the dungeon is level 18. I didn't get through but i did get all the way to the end fight. I killed three red names along the way and got three chests. Each of those chests had a heroic deeds in them. I am so angry that i don't know what to do. I was tempted to quit when the last heroic deeds appeared. And i mean quit forever. How can i keep up guild renoun when i lose 3000 points every day and when i do run quests i get garbage. There should not even be the possibility of a heroic deeds in a level 18 dungeon on elite. It is an insult to give someone a heroic deeds and to get three in a row makes me feel helpless to do anything. I ran most of the walkup quests in gianthold with a pug group a few days ago and received heroic deeds for most of the end quest rewards. I have a small guild, i am the only active member. I don't have guildies to run quests with whenever i want. I am often waiting around for a pug that happens to be doing what i need, which is rare. If you aren't in a big guild you are at an extreme disadvantage in this game. Most of the time i end up running the wilderness areas, which give **** for renoun. And i am finally to the point that when i get a good day and make around 10000 renoun, i will have thrree bad days and lose it all. When i get to the point that my guild moves backwards, i will quit. I don't see how i can keep playing a game that punishes me for playing. I understand punishing people for not playing, but i am online and active a lot and i feel that i am still getting punished. I can't move forward so what is the point of playing? I guess i could abandon my guild and join a bigger one, but i don't want to do that. I am proud of the fact that i got to level 54 essentially alone. I have already paid for the ship at level 55, but i can't get there. I guess i could recruit people. I have tried, but that ends up doing more harm than good. I get people who don't bring in much renoun, but add to my decay. Most good active players are in a big guild and don't want to move back to a level 54. As i type i realize two things, 1. No one is going to read all of this and 2. It is futile to continue playing.

+1

[Nestroy]

I read it, and this part is no longer true, as of last oct I think it was adding a member does not add 1 extra point of decay, decay is now set by guild level.

Not exactly true. If a guild depends on only a few doing the renown runs, any additional member not contributing reduces bonus and therefore reduces total renown gained. So with small guilds adding a member and not adding at large (and getting medium or large) is a very problematic move. AND YES, SMALL GUILD BONUS MEANS KICKING PLAYERS FROM SMALL GUILDS IF THEY DO NOT CONTRIBUTE!!! And thats so much for the argument from the large guilders here that with the new system kicking players is not necessary any more... Yes, not necessary for the large guilds any more, that is.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Not exactly true. If a guild depends on only a few doing the renown runs, any additional member not contributing reduces bonus and therefore reduces total renown gained. So with small guilds adding a member and not adding at large (and getting medium or large) is a very problematic move. AND YES, SMALL GUILD BONUS MEANS KICKING PLAYERS FROM SMALL GUILDS IF THEY DO NOT CONTRIBUTE!!! And thats so much for the argument from the large guilders here that with the new system kicking players is not necessary any more... Yes, not necessary for the large guilds any more, that is.

+1 - I'd give rep but all out - will try to give tomorrow.

[Tshober]

So with small guilds adding a member and not adding at large (and getting medium or large) is a very problematic move. AND YES, SMALL GUILD BONUS MEANS KICKING PLAYERS FROM SMALL GUILDS IF THEY DO NOT CONTRIBUTE!!! And thats so much for the argument from the large guilders here that with the new system kicking players is not necessary any more... Yes, not necessary for the large guilds any more, that is.

This is completely an artifact of small guild renown bonuses and has nothing at all to do with the decay formula. The devs addressed the problems with the old decay system initially by changing the decay formula because it was easy and could be done with no coding changes and no outage. That change completely remedied the problem with guilds being rewarded with less decay for kicking low renown earners. No guild of any size is ever rewarded with less decay for kicking a low renown earner under the current system.

The problem with small guilds having to stay under the renown bonus caps to be able to advance was present in the old system and has not been addressed yet in the new system. I agree this needs to be addressed and I believe it can best be addressed by further reducing decay so that small guilds can more easily advance and gain levels without the need to worry overly much about staying within the renown bonus caps. Many good proposals have been made along these lines that help small guilds greatly. But it is important that while we go about fixing the remaining problems that small guilds face, we do not undo the fix that has already been made to the decay formula, and bring back a system that rewards guilds with less decay for kicking the lowest renown earners.

[Nestroy]

This is completely an artifact of small guild renown bonuses and has nothing at all to do with the decay formula. The devs addressed the problems with the old decay system initially by changing the decay formula because it was easy and could be done with no coding changes and no outage. That change completely remedied the problem with guilds being rewarded with less decay for kicking low renown earners. No guild of any size is ever rewarded with less decay for kicking a low renown earner under the current system.

The problem with small guilds having to stay under the renown bonus caps to be able to advance was present in the old system and has not been addressed yet in the new system. I agree this needs to be addressed and I believe it can best be addressed by further reducing decay so that small guilds can more easily advance and gain levels without the need to worry overly much about staying within the renown bonus caps. Many good proposals have been made along these lines that help small guilds greatly. But it is important that while we go about fixing the remaining problems that small guilds face, we do not undo the fix that has already been made to the decay formula, and bring back a system that rewards guilds with less decay for kicking the lowest renown earners.

While I can agree to about 80% with the second part of your posting, I have to strongly idsagree with the first. Exactly the setting of decay = 20 active accounts did lead to the exact problem with the renown gain against bonus. Please remember that the minimum 20 accounts size was set with U14. Before it was minimum 10 and before this the minimum has been even the exact account size (pre U12, if I can remember correctly). I do not know why on gods earth the DEVs thought 20 accounts would be the perfect limit for decay, but they borked the system now completely. When before the change big guilds wanted to grow they had to kick players. Now if small guilds want to grow, they have to kick players. Simple as that. If any guild has to kick players, the system is broken. No guild should be forced to kick players in order to generate growth. Never ever, not a single time!

I never argued for re-introducing decay for bigger guilds, as you will remember. I am still of the opinion that "set DecayAccountSize=0" would be the best practical solution. Even the nice (or less nice) ideas from UurlockYgmeov can not compete with that beautiful solution. So please stay away from blaming me with arguing for more decay for bigger guilds.

EDIT: To my mind the DEVs borked the system by not taking into account the psychology behind the guild system. As Long as only the best of the best ever would have been able to get to lv. 100 and big guilds got stopped in their 70ies to 80ies, while most small guilds found the stop somewhere between lv. 40 and lv. 100, there was no big difference between small and big. Both got smacked by the system. Most small guilds never ever could even dream of reaching the upper Levels. Most big guilds while reaching the best buffs (lv. 63) easily could never dream of getting into the 90ies. Only a small handful of super eager power players ever reached lv. 100. Now the big guilds got the release from the decay grip. Fine. I really am happy for all the big guilds out there. And holla! We see a lot of big guilds on the rise. What a surprise! And again, I am happy for you folks out there.

And then there are the small guilds, still the vast majority of players, and they do look up to the big guilds on the raise. And they know that the big guilds got the better end of the change. And they see how decay eats away about 30% or 40% or even 100% of daily renown production. And all they can see are the big guilds having eaten away 5%, 7 % or 10% of daily prduction on the same levels. And now please tell me again that this system is fair. Or that this system still favors small guilds.

Well, the system is what the system is. If I do not like to have eaten away 100% of renown production by decay, there are 4 simple Solutions. 1st, expand the guild. This sounds great advise but there is only one player base, there are only so much active players and there are only limited growth opportunitiies left. So this normally leave choice 2nd: Join a more active bigger guild. This is sound advice, with the exception that perhaps the guild one person is in is a guild the player has done a lot for, where the friends are in and where there is an emotional tie to the guild as well. That leaves only two other Solutions still valid, as long as we rule out external changes again - 3rd accepting the Status quo of the stagnating guild or 4th leaving the game completely.

And with 3 options out of 4 for small guilders to be less than satisfactory and the 4th near to impossible to attain, there is muchby the DEVs artificially created dissatisfaction. I wonder if this already hurts sales?

[Charononus]

Not exactly true. If a guild depends on only a few doing the renown runs, any additional member not contributing reduces bonus and therefore reduces total renown gained. So with small guilds adding a member and not adding at large (and getting medium or large) is a very problematic move. AND YES, SMALL GUILD BONUS MEANS KICKING PLAYERS FROM SMALL GUILDS IF THEY DO NOT CONTRIBUTE!!! And thats so much for the argument from the large guilders here that with the new system kicking players is not necessary any more... Yes, not necessary for the large guilds any more, that is.

Reducing a bonus is not adding a penalty, honestly it's the same as flawless and lfm's that state no -10 imo.

[Tshober]

No guild should be forced to kick players in order to generate growth. Never ever, not a single time!

I am 99% sure we agree here, although I would state it differently. I would say the guild renown system should NEVER reward guilds (with more net renown) for kicking/shunning low renown earners. I prefer to state it that way because it eliminates the argument that guild leaders should be somehow forcing/convincing people to play more. When you adopt that stance, which I think you agree with based on your statement above, I can only see two possibilities for complete solutions that meet the stated criteria. 1) Eliminate decay entirely. 2) Cap decay for each account at the amount of renown that account earned. Both of these guarantee that no player will ever earn less renown than they cost the guild in decay so decay is covered with either of them.

But that does not guarantee that there will never be a situation where a guild would not benefit by kicking/shunning low renown earners in order to stay under a small guild bonus cap. Unfortunately, the only option I see to ensure that guilds will never, ever benefit from shedding a player in that circumstance is to eliminate small guild bonuses, in conjunction with either option 1) or 2) above. Obviously option 1) would be better for small guilds, especially if they are going to have to give up small guild bonuses to avoid being rewarded for dumping low renown earners in favor of higher renown earners. But realistically, with decay eliminated or greatly reduced, would there be enough pressure that staying under the bonus caps would be absolutely required? Isn't it conceivable that greatly reducing decay for small guilds might remove the pressure enough that it would no longer be important to stay under the bonus caps? Does it make any difference that, in this kind of scenario, there would be plenty of larger guilds that would be quite happy to have such small guild castoffs? To my mind it does, but you may disagree.