Guild Renown Changes

[Tshober]

I'm begging you. For the love of all that's good and wholesome, make a decision and shut down this ridiculous farce of a thread.

Every argument of merit has already been made and repeated a hundred pages ago.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Now to compare the first three by dividing the decay by the member count:

Again - kindly verify data - since these are drafts:

Old System:


Temporary System:


System 'A'

[UurlockYgmeov]

Charts (draft) from above data - just show decay

veracity of charts depends upon data presented above.

edit: might need to adjust colors of different size guilds.

Old System:


Temporary System:


System A:

[UurlockYgmeov]

Charts (draft) from above data - just show decay per member

veracity of charts depends upon data presented above.

edit: might need to adjust colors of different size guilds.

Old System:


Temporary System:


System A:

[UurlockYgmeov]

I posted the (draft) data in

• Table Form
  
  • Old System
  • Temporary System
  • System A
  • System B (pending)
  • Old System - per member
  • Temporary System - per member
  • System A - per member
  • System B - per member (pending)
• Chart Form
  
  • Old System
  • Temporary System
  • System A
  • System B (pending)
  • Old System - per member
  • Temporary System - per member
  • System A - per member
  • System B - per member (pending)

withholding any comment until peer review on veracity of numbers / formula. Once peer review done - will publish pending and give url to google docs (protected) version of the data.

Disclaimer - Data reflects just decay, does not include any other factor included guild size bonus multipliers to gain.
Am unsquelching so can read peer review from everyone.

Hope this helps settle the dust.

Special thanks to my Chef's Assistant Brenda (Philippines) and the Inventory Control Specialist PK (India) for all their assistance - on their own time! Kobold loves them long time! Kobold cook rat tonight!
BTW - They wanted their counties listed.

[Charononus]

Honestly your numbers are a waste of time this is why.

A guild should give all members a place to belong. When decay can be greater than renown brought in by a person for a day, from the player being casual and having little time to play that day it gives an incentive to boot and or never invite that player. This is bad for the health of a game, and will help any game rush towards server closure as discourages new players from playing when they can't find guilds.

The current as you call it temp system makes it so when a new player joins they will not harm a guild by ever having added more decay. This lets them feel involved with a community. If not for that feeling most new players that I have ever met will not stick with a game. Sense of a community is a major part of mmo's.

Any system that harms that sense of community even if by the math a billionth of a percentage point, will make people not want to take risks about inviting that new player, it's human nature with risk aversion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_aversion

This makes any system not only about math and numbers but about Psychology as well. This means that any system must include a way for new/casual players not to hurt any guild that accepts them, ever, under any circumstances or eventually it will cause Turbine to lose money, and hasten the closing of servers.

TL : DR I hate to say it but in this case Shade is right, math solves no problems.

[Tshober]

The current as you call it temp system makes it so when a new player joins they will not harm a guild by ever having added more decay. This lets them feel involved with a community. If not for that feeling most new players that I have ever met will not stick with a game. Sense of a community is a major part of mmo's.

What you say is true. I would add to it a simple rule. MMO's should not punish players by taking away progress they have already earned. MMO's learned this lesson long ago for other things. How many MMO's still feature a "death penalty" that causes exp loss? Pretty much none because MMO's learned that punishing players, especially causal players, by taking away their progress after they have earned it was a huge factor in people leaving the game. How many RPG MMO's feature a system that has a character decline with age or truly die? How many have top end gear that truly wears out over time and must be replaced? MMO's have learned that taking away a player's progress after they have earned it is a huge disincentive for players, particularly casual players, to continue playing. So none of them do it anymore. Renown decay is the same. It takes away a player's progress after they have earned it. The only difference is it takes that progress from all players in that player's guild, instead of from the player individually. Very few MMO's have such a system that takes away progress after players have earned it, and for good reason. Such mechanics take away the player's sense of accomplishment and make the game seem less fun and more like work. And that is a big reason why players, especially casual players, stop playing.

[UurlockYgmeov]

The proposal I made rounded down and I had figured it for 12-20 after the static +10 modifier. But it could go 2-10 or 2-20 if either of those work better. Any of those would be an improvement for "very small" and at least some "small" guilds, while 2-20 would even help out the smallest of the "large" guilds (those with 51-59 members).

Edit:Nm, apparently I'm squelched lol.

I did the numbers for all three - but only posted the 2-20 since you said you wanted to help the smaller guilds.

Numbers are posted for this as System A - and so are the charts. Kindly check the math / formula to make sure it is correct and accurately reflects your idea.

Just looking for verification on the math.

[eris2323]

LOL. Such delicious irony from the guy who wants large guilds to be punished more because a group of 300 people all working together can earn way more renown than his solo guild can earn. So the large guild has to be punished more and almost all of their renown that they earned has to be taken away so that the solo guild guy can keep up, even though the large guild spent many, many times the man-hours earning that renown as the solo dude did.

Oh, and he needs a small guild bonus on top of that. Sweet, sweet irony.

I actually spit out my coffee laughing.

It is amazingly transparent how much he is doing this only to help his own solo guild out.

The fact he has the nerve to reply with 'there ain't no such thing as a free lunch?'

I totally agree with him, his solo guild needs to recruit more - cause there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Get recruiting, friend! There ain't no such thing as a free lunch!

[UurlockYgmeov]

How rude; we could say the same thing to all tiny, small and solo guilds, too, you know. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch - so get out and recruit!

I agree with the above posters; you do not understand the profound impact your suggestions will have.

I will not 'peer review' your math, because I believe it's a bad system, and I'm not really willing to waste the time required to do that. Besides, you constantly squelch anyone who opposes you; so I'm not real interested in that, either! To be honest, I kind of totally ignored all of your charts, and all the text in them, because you obviously don't read anyone elses posts, so why should we read yours?

I have the distinct feeling of being surrounded by doomers, but hopefully TINC, but do feel like YHBT - so all I ask is DFTT!

I haven't even posted the charts/graphs for system b - and all you do is continue to point at me and say no.

I ask that we stop and just look at the math before we go any further.

btw - your post tldr.

[Charononus]

Am I missing something other than him spamming random characters in that reply?

[Tshober]

Am I missing something other than him spamming random characters in that reply?

I had to Google it. His reply was a reference to a Sci Fi novel. It means "There's no such thing as a free lunch".

[UurlockYgmeov]

Honestly your numbers are a waste of time

This makes any system not only about math and numbers but about Psychology as well.

This means that any system must include a way for new/casual players not to hurt any guild that accepts them, ever, under any circumstances or eventually it will cause Turbine to lose money, and hasten the closing of servers.

Math is the basis of life - Golden Mean (philosophy)

Math explains psychology - Fibonacci Sequence and recent studies back this up in what humans find attractive. (for fun: Mathematical measurement of facial beauty based upon proven research

so PEBKAC because 'It's in there.' :P Provisional Guild Invitation - allows players and guilds to try each out and see if fit is right, without any penalty or gain. Before someone yells - 'not needed, don't wanna do it' (best Dana Carvey impersonation), system is additional and does not force anyone to do it.

and back to the doom and gloom - the knee-jerk ill-thought out comments. HAND!

[UurlockYgmeov]

I actually spit out my coffee laughing.

It is amazingly transparent how much he is doing this only to help his own solo guild out.

The fact he has the nerve to reply with 'there ain't no such thing as a free lunch?'

I totally agree with him, his solo guild needs to recruit more - cause there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Get recruiting, friend! There ain't no such thing as a free lunch!

I don't belong to a solo guild - and in fact based upon the charts above (IIIIC) then there is no such thing as a 'solo' guild - meaning there are no level 100 guilds with only one account because it is impossible to do.

If you wanted to know about the guild I do belong two - then use the tools and look it up.

This isn't about me. This isn't about what size guild or style guild I am in.

Stop the personal attacks.

And even if I was the only account in my guild, I don't want a free lunch - just a seat at the table and not forced to the back of the bus.

How about we get back to being constructive - stop the hate and start seeing if one of these is better than the others?

So far I have refrained to comment on any of the above charts - but now that you are trying to PCH them into bit heaven - i will start some comments.

First - obvious - 1 account guilds (solo) guilds don't exist above a certain level - never truely have. Impossible for just one account to reach let alone stay at level 100.

Now of the three - the third is the best of the three that is system a.

[Tshober]

I have the distinct feeling of being surrounded by doomers, but hopefully TINC, but do feel like YHBT - so all I ask is DFTT!

I haven't even posted the charts/graphs for system b - and all you do is continue to point at me and say no.

I ask that we stop and just look at the math before we go any further.

btw - your post tldr.

Okay, now he's just resorting to gibberish.


MSHE, is not ICLWS so PDHEW and LWC don't hold. Your post is WGPQ.

PPVV

[Drakesan]

I understand the desire to give a boost to small guilds, even more so than they have now. No, I do not begrudge those guilds their bonuses, nor do I wish to have the mentality of they have it, why can't I.

Understanding that, I see that ALL of the proposed solutions that takes us back resembling the old decay system, is a bad, bad idea. The old decay system had unintended consequences that casual, part time people were hurting the guilds renown bottom line. They cost more renown than they were contributing. This caused guild leaders an officers to contemplate removing said players from the guild.

My guild leader and officers agonized (that is not an exaggeration) over removing anybody from the guild because of renown. We railed against it in our voice chat, as well as our guild forums. We HATED the old system, and we were not alone. A while back, I started a thread that asked for guild leaders to state their support for the (old) system, and the response was overwhelmingly that it was less than desirable.

When we asked for a change, I don't think anybody asked that the small guilds get punished, or that large guilds were given an "unfair" advantage. I still don't ask that. I would like to see all guilds advance. Period.

The last 10 pages of this thread seems to me, to be asking for a variant of the old system. I further ask that we do not even contemplate anything of the sort. The old system was horribly anti-social through its unintended consequences, and any variant of it will again be anti-social.

[eris2323]

Okay, now he's just resorting to gibberish.


MSHE, is not ICLWS so PDHEW and LWC don't hold. Your post is WGPQ.

PPVV

By showing off his 'literacy' he somehow demeans us.

Or so he thinks...

To the other gentleman, not Tshober:

You claimed you had made so many million renown, and your guild was a certain level; that would mean the vast majority of renown made was by you - I'm sorry, if your guild is not a solo guild, then it must be a tiny guild with you doing 99.999999999999999999999% of the work, from the numbers you posted earlier.

(i'd go look up the post, but you've done an excellent job spamming the forums recently, and it would take more time than it's worth. suffice to say, you were called on it, and you posted numbers)

If you are now going to change your story, please let us know beforehand - and make sure you go back and edit your old post where you posted those numbers.

You can't bully us into accepting your proposal; you're not even listening to why it's a bad idea, you're just using bully tactics to try to shut us up.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch, my friend - and there are solo and tiny guilds at level 100 right now - it really sounds like you need to recruit more, or play more, since others are able to do it!

[UurlockYgmeov]

there are solo and tiny guilds at level 100 right now

Show me the Beef - give me concrete names (verifiable) of guilds with only 1 account in them that are level 100.

[eris2323]

Show me the Beef - give me concrete names (verifiable) of guilds with only 1 account in them that are level 100.

LOL - I'm sorry, I have better things to do with my time - you may take a look at the broken stats amongst servers again via myddo, if you'd like - they're not accurate, but I'm sure you'll find a few.

Do keep in mind, unless they've made a major change to myddo; it will only list number of characters; not number of accounts - so it is impossible to 'prove' anyways.

I also know of a few 'guilds' that game the system - 5 fake accounts, solely to get to the sweet spot of guild renown bonus.

But the devs allow that sort of activity, even though in my mind, it's cheating

[Tshober]

When we asked for a change, I don't think anybody asked that the small guilds get punished, or that large guilds were given an "unfair" advantage. I still don't ask that. I would like to see all guilds advance. Period.

The last 10 pages of this thread seems to me, to be asking for a variant of the old system. I further ask that we do not even contemplate anything of the sort. The old system was horribly anti-social through its unintended consequences, and any variant of it will again be anti-social.

Agreed, on both of your points.

The proposal that keeps getting spammed recently brings back a feature of the old system that was the underlying cause of the problems with the old system. That feature causes guilds to incur increased decay for each member in their guild. As long as a system has that feature and does not take steps to insure that players can't earn negative net renown, then that system WILL have the same problems that brought down the old decay system. The spam proposal does reduce the number of players that will earn negative net renown but it does not eliminate them. And so it still suffers from the same problems that plagued the old decay system.