Guild Renown Changes

[eris2323]

Hi,

The thing is, most of the work you're referring which was done by large guilds is done by other people, not by you.

My renown contribution to my guild is just over 9 million, not including decay. It has taken large amounts of daily play for almost three years. That was a lot of work.

Even in the larger guilds, only people who play very regularly and have been doing so for a long time will be able to exceed this. This is not a boast, it's just an indication that there are people in smaller guilds who are working. Obviously you have to work to advance.

The situation we have now is that anyone can join a larger guild and receive all of the benefits of a high level guild without doing any work themselves, provided that the guild leadership is happy with that.

So we have the paradox of people in small guilds being criticised for wanting something for nothing but having to work to advance, while there is the option of joining a larger guild where in some cases you need to do little or nothing to contribute but still be able to reap the rewards.

No doubt this will be read by some as another person from a small guild disliking larger guilds,. So once again, I will say that I like that fact that large guilds have been given a break from decay. I think they are good for the game too. It's just not the way I want to play.

And seriously, has anyone suggested anywhere in this thread that they expect to be able to level to 100 in two weeks? Exaggerations of this sort serve no useful purpose in this discussion, they only serve to reduce your credibility.

Thanks.

"My choice is to either be part of a large community, working towards a common goal, and enjoying the benefits of that community, or to forge off ahead, and form my own community, but I choose to limit myself by only playing by myself in my guild, or with 2 friends, and we are not getting enough of an easy road, and I hate you all for making me make the choice between being part of a community and being in my small elite group, and me by myself or me and my 1 friend should be able to be able to be level 100 too, or it's just not fair!!!!!!!!"

That's what I got out of that. You guys are way too wordy.

[eris2323]

My opionon? You don't understand Uurlock's idea. Plain and Simple.

The idea doesn't take the game backward - it just fixes the problems that are currently with it.

I support Uurlock's idea because it currently is the best one out there.

And Ok - I am sure people like you would rush out and buy two. Yep IMHO - you opinions are extremely bigoted and nonobjectivity, one-sidedness, partiality, parti pris, partisanship, ply, prejudice, tendentiousness against any guild that isn't yours or exactly like yours.

I understand his idea exactly. I do not LIKE it.

There's a difference.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Perhaps if you spent some time in-game actually making some renown instead of worrying about my lazy typing?

Perhaps this whole mess, including your almost universally hated proposals, would never have happened!

Check out my stats, over 9 million renown generated by me. You asked, I showed. The guild I belong to just achieved level 55 - and it was a part time player who got the last renown to put us over that milestone. We are now enjoying a nice big sebaceous new ship.

And as the recent posts go to show - there is significant support for an unbiased solution to the currently broken system, my proposal is the single-most unbiased solution presented so far that it fixes the bias inherent to the system.

*sigh* calm down before you post something you will regret. Keep the conversation civil please.

[Gremmlynn]

only amplifies the bias and makes amplifies the existing faults. not supported.

How so?

It would lower the decay in every guild of 29 or fewer members while not effecting those above that at all.

It also allows for the earning power of three members to balance against the decay of one. I would also propose the size bonus be changed to work under a similar formula to blunt the effect of adding players on them.

[Lowz]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Perhaps you should go look up the word 'guild'.

I'm sorry that me posting what his response looked like to me offended you so much.

IMHO your opinion is totally whacked and sadly out of touch with the bulk of players and guilds.

Support you small local guild as long as it is favorable to a large guild!

IMHO You are giving large guilds a black eye.

[eris2323]

Check out my stats, over 9 million renown generated by me. You asked, I showed. The guild I belong to just achieved level 55 - and it was a part time player who got the last renown to put us over that milestone. We are now enjoying a nice big sebaceous new ship.

And as the recent posts go to show - there is significant support for an unbiased solution to the currently broken system, my proposal is the single-most unbiased solution presented so far that it fixes the bias inherent to the system.

*sigh* calm down before you post something you will regret. Keep the conversation civil please.

"siginificant" support to me means more than that 3 people with 0-2 posts from your guild you managed to dig up on this evening alone. Was no one logging in yesterday, the day before, or the day before, so they couldn't come then?

I don't see significant support at all

[eris2323]

IMHO your opinion is totally whacked and sadly out of touch with the bulk of players and guilds.

Support you small local guild as long as it is favorable to a large guild!

IMHO You are giving large guilds a black eye.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

In my opinion all 4 of you just want an easier ride solely for personal purposes

[Tychagara]

I understand his idea exactly. I do not LIKE it.

There's a difference.

my opinion is that you don't actually understand it - and are so blinded by hate that you cannot see fair if it was to come up and hit you on the nose.

[eris2323]

my opinion is that you don't actually understand it - and are so blinded by hate that you cannot see fair if it was to come up and hit you on the nose.

That's fine. You're entitled to an opinion, even if you are WRONG

I can assure you I do understand it.

[UurlockYgmeov]

How so?

It would lower the decay in every guild of 29 or fewer members while not effecting those above that at all.

It also allows for the earning power of three members to balance against the decay of one. I would also propose the size bonus be changed to work under a similar formula to blunt the effect of adding players on them.

actually you would be cause now all guilds would have a smaller number (min 2 max 10) down from 20.

And you enforce the large membership bias by removing the only thing that allows small guilds to fight against the bias.

[Tychagara]

That's fine.

I can assure you I do understand it.

Then you choose to ignore it because of other reasons, either case ignorance or feigned ignorance is not a defence.

[eris2323]

Then you choose to ignore it because of other reasons, either case ignorance or feigned ignorance is not a defence.

No, I told you already - I don't believe his changes would be good for the game.

[Lowz]

"siginificant" support to me means more than that 3 people with 0-2 posts from your guild you managed to dig up on this evening alone. Was no one logging in yesterday, the day before, or the day before, so they couldn't come then?

I don't see significant support at all

I am not a member of Uurlock's Guild. I have been lurking but finally got peeved enough at all the bullying toward small guilds that I was compelled to speak.

You IMO are obviously covering your eyes.

[Tychagara]

No, I told you already - I don't believe his changes would be good for the game.

No - you believe the changes would remove the bias completely and make the system fair for all guilds and that you fear would hurt your guild.

Uurlock - would you please repost the idea so we can go through item by item? Thank you!

[eris2323]

I am not a member of Uurlock's Guild. I have been lurking but finally got peeved enough at all the bullying toward small guilds that I was compelled to speak.

You IMO are obviously covering your eyes.

That's fine.

So now you all came online to bully me? You can't stand bullying - unless it's you doing it

Anyways, I'm not sure why you think there's bullying going on... simply because some people disagree that his proposal would be useful. Are we not allowed to post our opinions too?

But I can see that since this is how you feel, there's no use talking with you about it.

[Lowz]

No, I told you already - I don't believe his changes would be good for the game.

No - you believe the changes would remove the bias completely and make the system fair for all guilds and that you fear would hurt your guild.

Uurlock - would you please repost the idea so we can go through item by item? Thank you!

Yep - that sounds right and please.

[Tychagara]

I have been lurking but finally got peeved enough at all the bullying toward small guilds that I was compelled to speak.

You IMO are obviously covering your eyes.

The same.

[UurlockYgmeov]

No - you believe the changes would remove the bias completely and make the system fair for all guilds and that you fear would hurt your guild.

Uurlock - would you please repost the idea so we can go through item by item? Thank you!

Sorry it took so long - so many trying to bury it. Thanks for the support!

I have rewritten the proposal in a more easy to understand format – separating the proposal from additional ideas that have been generated in this forum that might deserve consideration.

Yes, this proposal does mean a tiny more decay for most guilds (all sizes, and levels) - and does affect even the level 1 through 25 guilds; yet the changes are fair and easily handled without any difficulty, especially since it eliminates the effect of casual players on decay unless they earn renown.

In pink as requested in another post.

SO here is the updated and revised proposal - prioritized easiest to implement first to the most difficult last.

Eliminate Decay Altogether

but if Turbine says no, then:

1. Modify temporary system by making simple and easy changes that take away 99% of the pressure away to boot. Is fair for all guilds of all sizes of all styles of play. Booting will still occur - but not because of the system. Easy to accomplish because mostly only modifying existing code by changing static variables.
   
   1. member is not counted toward modified guild size until generates renown. (for mail checkers and purely social log ins)
   2. instead of 30 days until considered inactive for guild purposes, change to one day (changed to account for daily dice);
   3. remove the +10 to the modified guild size in the formula, with a modified minimum guild size becoming one - no cap/limit.
   4. adjust decay to affect all guilds of all levels.
   5. Significantly lower decay for higher level guilds by up to 93% (the level multiplier drops from up to 4.5 down to 2.5).
      
      1. Modified formula would be something like: modified_guild_size[i](1 being the minimum) x (guild_level x 2.5 (two point five)). [i]This change alone reduces decay for high level guilds by up to 93%)
      2. Keep It Simple - keep it transparent and easy to explain, understand, and compute.
   6. Ransack set to start at 500K per day or at 2nd level - whichever is easier to implement. Ransack doesn't start to kick in until (500K) or (2nd level) is reached.
2. Implement (aka ADD a)simple Provisional (two-week) guild invite - invitee does not affect guild renown. So doesn't earn renown, and isn't counted toward modified guild size. Allows guild and prospect to try each other out and see if the fit is right. changed term to provisional - Thanks Fearmaker!

The following is a short compilation of additional suggestions that will benefit guilds and has been generated in this discussion thread. These are not needed to implement the proposal, but are highly recommended as they address issues that affect the current topic and enhance the guild experience.

1. VIP's should get +10% renown - this is now in line with what Fernando stated about new benefits starting with +10% xp for VIPs that begin next patch(s.i.c. below).
2. there needs to be a new form of Global Friends List - one that acts like facebook in most basic essence. You ask someone to be on your friends list (or offer) - and can select to be public, private; to show online status - last log, show all or just one characters in account; and an easier way to talk with them in game without having to be in a guild. Once a player is on your Global Friends List - you can see any of their characters from any of their characters (can still flag yourself as "invisible" or "do not disturb" to make a character not show up in global list). This lets us do global ignore as well, for those who would use it. Selecting (or hovering over with tool tip) a Global Friend in your list and it shows you the last (visible) character they logged in as, the server, and how long ago they logged off, if they aren't online. thanks to Artos_Fabril for the improvements!
3. Guild Information Kiosk: There needs to be a better way for guilds to communicate information in-game about their guilds to the general public - including membership rules, play times and styles, recruitment status - and a way to ask for an invitation. Current methods are all out of game (compendium) and private web-sites (guildportal.com for example) both require programming knowledge (wiki style and web layout). Just have a guild information kiosk in the upper harbor and or in Korthos where players could talk to the NPC to find out more about guilds (general), guilds (specific guilds), search for a guild, message guild leader (inquiry), and apply for membership to a guild. The alternative is to add another page to the social panel that does this as well.
4. Need a replacement to fill in the void caused by the demise of guild-slotted equipment. Not a total replacement, rather something that fills the greatest void. Two new ship amenities - each with different level for different level guilds. Same buff as available from guild augment crystals - so does not stack with itself.(Again thank you to Fearmaker and Alyonna for the suggestion)
   
   • Tiny: no ship available so not applicable
   • Small: Minimum Guild Level 25
     
     • Hit Point Shrine:+10 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +40 stacking maximum SP (+80 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)
   • Medium: Minimum Guild Level 45
     
     • Hit Point Shrine: +15 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +60 stacking maximum SP (+80 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)
   • Large: Minimum Guild Level 70
     
     • Hit Point Shrine: +30 stacking maximum HP
     • Spell Point Shrine: +80 stacking maximum SP (+160 to Sorcerers and Favored Souls)

add 10% boost to all earned XP for VIP accounts.

this goes live on Monday the 18th of March 2013.

Kindly Note: Large Guilds (which are the minority in both number and total membership vs total population) object to any changes from the temporary ad hoc kludged system and wish the existing temporary system made permanent.

Kobold puts on its 33% fire reduction cloak of superior flame resistance.

Have a nice day! and a lovely St. Patrick's day!

[eris2323]

Since it's reposted yet again, what's that, 8 posts now?

I believe this system will return us to a system where guild leaders will be thinking about 'who is worth more than who' in a renown sense, and that it is totally backwards to what the devs have in mind.

To me, instead of all this programming that's required for this complex plan, we should just switch to:

Decay size based on active members/3 (round down)-min:2/max:10

[Gremmlynn]

Hi,

The thing is, most of the work you're referring which was done by large guilds is done by other people, not by you.

My renown contribution to my guild is just over 9 million, not including decay. It has taken large amounts of daily play for almost three years. That was a lot of work.

Even in the larger guilds, only people who play very regularly and have been doing so for a long time will be able to exceed this. This is not a boast, it's just an indication that there are people in smaller guilds who are working. Obviously you have to work to advance.

The situation we have now is that anyone can join a larger guild and receive all of the benefits of a high level guild without doing any work themselves, provided that the guild leadership is happy with that.

So we have the paradox of people in small guilds being criticised for wanting something for nothing but having to work to advance, while there is the option of joining a larger guild where in some cases you need to do little or nothing to contribute but still can reap the rewards. To me this sounds a comparison between spoilt rich kids and self-made men and women, but that's just me.

No doubt this will be read by some as another person from a small guild disliking larger guilds,. So once again, I will say that I like that fact that large guilds have been given a break from decay. I think they are good for the game too. It's just not the way I want to play, and I don't appreciate people from those guilds speaking out to restrict my opportunties to advance.

And seriously, has anyone suggested anywhere in this thread that they expect to be able to level to 100 in two weeks? Exaggerations of this sort serve no useful purpose in this discussion, they only serve to reduce your credibility.

Thanks.

The problem is, from the perspective of a lot of those casual players, that joining a large level 0 guild allows them to reap the real benefits-access to other people to play with who they can trust to play cooperatively. The old system took that away from many of them by making them a drag on the more active members advancement.

Personally I would rather see the whole system removed than go back to one that separates the active players who play it from the casual players who just want someone to play with.